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Tough & Talented

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07-17-2011, 01:26 AM
  #1
Ziggy Stardust
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Tough & Talented

Out of curiosity, I used the hockey-reference play index database to research the number of forwards in NHL history to amass 200 or more penalty minutes while also contributing on the score sheet with a minimum of 30 goals and 60 points. To my surprise, only 18 players in the NHL have accomplished this. Here's the list:


PlayerYearAgePos.TeamGPGAPTSPIM
Kevin Stevens 1991-92 26 PIT LW 80 54 69 123 254
Gary Roberts 1991-92 25 CGY LW 76 53 37 90 207
Keith Tkachuk 1996-97 24 PHX LW 81 52 34 86 228
Brendan Shanahan 1993-94 25 STL LW 81 52 50 102 211
Rick Tocchet 1992-93 28 PIT RW 80 48 61 109 252
Brian Sutter 1982-83 26 STL LW 79 46 30 76 254
Pat Verbeek 1987-88 23 NJD RW 73 46 31 77 227
Pat Verbeek 1989-90 25 HAR LW 80 44 45 89 228
Al Secord 1981-82 23 CBH LW 80 44 31 75 303
Pat Verbeek 1990-91 26 HAR LW 80 43 39 82 246
Keith Tkachuk 1993-94 21 WIN LW 84 41 40 81 255
Al Secord 1985-86 27 CBH LW 80 40 36 76 201
Gary Roberts 1989-90 23 CGY LW 78 39 33 72 222
Brian Sutter 1981-82 25 STL LW 74 39 36 75 239
Gerard Gallant 1988-89 25 DET LW 76 39 54 93 230
Willi Plett 1980-81 25 CGY RW 78 38 30 68 239
Gerard Gallant 1986-87 23 DET LW 80 38 34 72 216
Wendel Clark 1986-87 20 TOR LW 80 37 23 60 271
Gerard Gallant 1989-90 26 DET LW 69 36 44 80 254
Tiger Williams 1980-81 26 VAN LW 77 35 27 62 343
Brian Sutter 1980-81 24 STL LW 78 35 34 69 232
Kevin Dineen 1992-93 29 PHI RW 83 35 28 63 201
Gerard Gallant 1987-88 24 DET LW 73 34 39 73 242
Adam Creighton 1989-90 24 CHI LW 80 34 36 70 224
Rick Vaive 1980-81 21 TOR RW 75 33 29 62 229
Stan Smyl 1979-80 22 VAN RW 77 31 47 78 204
Rick Tocchet 1987-88 23 PHI RW 65 31 33 64 299
Paul Holmgren 1979-80 24 PHI RW 74 30 35 65 267
Chris Gratton 1996-97 21 TBL C 82 30 32 62 201

Just about every player on that list is a winger, the only center being Chris Gratton (although I do believe some players such as Creighton were in fact centers, at least for a good majority of his career was spent as one).

The last two players to accomplish this feat were Tkachuk and Gratton in 1996-97. Gratton's accomplishments that season also resulted in him hitting the jackpot after signing an outrageously high offer sheet from the Flyers.

Now the reason behind this post is due to a burning question that many dispute around here. What constitutes for a power forward? I used to consider a power forward to be a player who can fight, hit, and score. The players on the list for the most part met that criteria, with the likes of Tocchet, Shanahan and Clark being players that I view as the quintessential power forwards.

Nowadays there tends to be more of a leniency in labeling a player a power forward. It is certainly a type of player that I would consider a rare breed in today's NHL.

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Old
07-17-2011, 02:18 AM
  #2
buffalowing88
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I would like to think this makes people appreciate peak Tkachuk more. He was an animal in his prime and the impact he had on the Coyotes and the Blues between 96-04 was huge.

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07-17-2011, 05:21 AM
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jepjepjoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalowing88 View Post
I would like to think this makes people appreciate peak Tkachuk more. He was an animal in his prime and the impact he had on the Coyotes and the Blues between 96-04 was huge.
Taking penalties is a positive thing? I never understood that logic.

Example:

Sidney Crosby had 102 points and 110 PIM in 05-06. He must be tough and talented.

Holding 5
Throwing stick 1
Interference 6
Interference on goalkeeper 2
Tripping 3
Abuse of officials 1
Delaying Game-Puck over glass 1
Hooking 11
Slashing 5
Diving 1
Hi-sticking 4
Holding the stick 2
Unsportsmanlike conduct 6

48 minors in total. Possibly 96 minutes of PK time.

"Toughness" penalties:

Roughing 4
Boarding 1
Cross checking 2

7 minors in total. Possibly 14 minutes of PK time.


Last edited by jepjepjoo: 07-17-2011 at 05:32 AM.
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07-17-2011, 06:36 AM
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Well, the difference is that these guys didn't take Crosby-like penalties... At least from what I remember... Secord and Plett were good fighters..enforcers even, but they could put the puck in the net too.

I know there is no such thing as a justified penalty...although some may argue that.. but to me, there are some penalties worth taking and these guys took them.

Crosby's penalties look sloppy and irresponsible. Hurting the team more than say lighting his team on fire.

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07-17-2011, 08:06 AM
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jepjepjoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveat View Post
Well, the difference is that these guys didn't take Crosby-like penalties... At least from what I remember... Secord and Plett were good fighters..enforcers even, but they could put the puck in the net too.

I know there is no such thing as a justified penalty...although some may argue that.. but to me, there are some penalties worth taking and these guys took them.

Crosby's penalties look sloppy and irresponsible. Hurting the team more than say lighting his team on fire.
Keith Tkachuk's last 100+ pim 70+ pts season:
Instigator 1
Unsportsmanlike conduct 1
Hooking 2
Interference 6
Interference on goalkeeper 2
Hi-sticking 11
Slashing 3
Diving 1
Holding the stick 1

28 minors possibly 56 minutes of PK time.

"Toughness" penalties:

Roughing 8
Boarding 2
Charging 1
Elbowing 1
1 cross checking major
(+2 fighting majors)

12 minors 1 major, possibly 29 minutes of PK time

Took himself out of the game penalties:

1 10min misconduct
1 game misconduct

Brendan Shanahan 05-06:

Hi-sticking 5
Holding 2
Hooking 8
Tripping 4
Slashing 2
Interference 6
Interference on goalkeeper 1
Unsportsmanlike conduct 2

30 minors, possibly 60 minutes of PK time

Toughness penalties:

Boarding 1
Roughing 3
Charging 1
(+3 fighting majors)

5 minors, possibly 10 minutes of PK time

Took himself out of the game penalties:
2 10min misconducts.

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07-17-2011, 10:10 AM
  #6
BraveCanadian
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This penalty breakdown just reinforces to me how unique a player like Clark Gillies was.. a top level enforcer (rocked dave schultz for instance), a physical monster, a 6 time 30 goal scorer and disciplined enough that he never broke 100 pims.

There is a tradeoff between the chippiness some of these guys had giving space to themselves and their teammates, and costing the team with bad penalties.

Hard to tell where it is exactly though.

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07-17-2011, 10:58 AM
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Killion
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Why does it not surprise me to see Stevens' sitting up top at numero uno'?.

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07-18-2011, 01:43 AM
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What an excellent illustration of the difference between good and bad PIMs. I love it.

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07-18-2011, 02:49 AM
  #9
Rhiessan71
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A few full years out of Lindros in his prime would of easily seen some 40-50+ goal/200+pim seasons.

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07-18-2011, 02:52 AM
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Ziggy Stardust
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I wish there was a way to filter our minor penalties and fighting majors, but generally, I would say most of us would agree that a majority of those players listed were tough in their own right. Wendel Clark, Rick Tocchet, Gary Roberts, Brendan Shanahan: all of them were warriors who checked hard, fought, and paid the price to score a goal.

Players like Verbeek, K. Stevens and Tkachuk aren't necessarily considered to be as tough as the others I mentioned above, but they took a lot of abuse and also dished out their share of it as well.

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07-18-2011, 02:58 AM
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JT Dutch*
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... Doug Gilmour didn't fight too often, but he fit the description of "Tough and Talented" better than just about any player I can think of. Mark Messier and Wendel Clark were players who fought, hit, and scored enough in one season to make the list, but never posted 200 penalty minutes in a season. I don't believe penalty minutes equate to toughness, anyway.

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07-18-2011, 03:15 AM
  #12
Ziggy Stardust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Doug Gilmour didn't fight too often, but he fit the description of "Tough and Talented" better than just about any player I can think of. Mark Messier and Wendel Clark were players who fought, hit, and scored enough in one season to make the list, but never posted 200 penalty minutes in a season. I don't believe penalty minutes equate to toughness, anyway.
That is true, but I wanted to set certain parameters that I knew isn't easily attainable. It was more or less as a reference to measure how tough (and skilled) players were then as opposed to today. Nowadays it is players like Iginla, Lucic, Brown, Ladd, Morrow, etc. who are considered power forwards. While they're tough players in their own right, I don't think they compare much to those players from previous eras.

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07-18-2011, 07:07 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Doug Gilmour didn't fight too often, but he fit the description of "Tough and Talented" better than just about any player I can think of. Mark Messier and Wendel Clark were players who fought, hit, and scored enough in one season to make the list, but never posted 200 penalty minutes in a season. I don't believe penalty minutes equate to toughness, anyway.
Gilmour, tough ? The guy got wrecked by Joe Sakic and Daniel Alfredsson . Dirty when he had bullies to protect him, but that's it. If he hadn't played for the Leafs no one would consider him.

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07-18-2011, 10:35 AM
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danincanada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
That is true, but I wanted to set certain parameters that I knew isn't easily attainable. It was more or less as a reference to measure how tough (and skilled) players were then as opposed to today. Nowadays it is players like Iginla, Lucic, Brown, Ladd, Morrow, etc. who are considered power forwards. While they're tough players in their own right, I don't think they compare much to those players from previous eras.
You should have went with 29+ goals and 60+ points so we could see Probert's name on that list for his '87-'88 season.

Regular Season GP 74 G 29 A 33 P 62 PIM 398

Playoffs GP 16 A 8 A 13 PTS 21 PIM 51

Probert was certainly tough and showed a lot of talent that year.

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07-18-2011, 01:53 PM
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BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Seguin View Post
Gilmour, tough ? The guy got wrecked by Joe Sakic and Daniel Alfredsson . Dirty when he had bullies to protect him, but that's it. If he hadn't played for the Leafs no one would consider him.
Ha. No one has ever been wrecked by Sakic and Alfredsson.

In the "fight" between Sakic and Gilmour there are maybe 4-5 punches thrown in the whole thing, maybe 3 land, and most of them are to the back of the head of Gilmour as he tries to tie up Sakic.

Alfredsson & Gilmour.. like two punches get thrown before they get tangled up and go down.

Get real. Gilmour wasn't a fighter and he gave up like 15-20 pounds even to a lightweight like Sakic.

And yes, I know I'm terribly biased, but also completely right. Gilmour was tough.

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07-18-2011, 02:45 PM
  #16
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Neely had 42 goals and 175 PiM's in 87/88 (in only 69 games), and 37 goals with 190 PiM's the following year.

Even though '88 was one of his All-Star seasons I still think it is underestimated by those that did not see it.

The perfect definition of tough and talented.

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07-18-2011, 02:49 PM
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Banana Sandwiches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Taking penalties is a positive thing? I never understood that logic.

Example:

Sidney Crosby had 102 points and 110 PIM in 05-06. He must be tough and talented.

Holding 5
Throwing stick 1
Interference 6
Interference on goalkeeper 2
Tripping 3
Abuse of officials 1
Delaying Game-Puck over glass 1
Hooking 11
Slashing 5
Diving 1
Hi-sticking 4
Holding the stick 2
Unsportsmanlike conduct 6

48 minors in total. Possibly 96 minutes of PK time.

"Toughness" penalties:

Roughing 4
Boarding 1
Cross checking 2

7 minors in total. Possibly 14 minutes of PK time.
Yeah, Crosby isn't a good example for that. Heck, a lot of people had high PIM totals (I'm looking at you Alexei Zhitnik!) but most of their penalties were holding, hooking, etc. because they were still getting used to the new rules.

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07-18-2011, 08:46 PM
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Peter9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Out of curiosity, I used the hockey-reference play index database to research the number of forwards in NHL history to amass 200 or more penalty minutes while also contributing on the score sheet with a minimum of 30 goals and 60 points. To my surprise, only 18 players in the NHL have accomplished this. Here's the list:


PlayerYearAgePos.TeamGPGAPTSPIM
Kevin Stevens 1991-92 26 PIT LW 80 54 69 123 254
Gary Roberts 1991-92 25 CGY LW 76 53 37 90 207
Keith Tkachuk 1996-97 24 PHX LW 81 52 34 86 228
Brendan Shanahan 1993-94 25 STL LW 81 52 50 102 211
Rick Tocchet 1992-93 28 PIT RW 80 48 61 109 252
Brian Sutter 1982-83 26 STL LW 79 46 30 76 254
Pat Verbeek 1987-88 23 NJD RW 73 46 31 77 227
Pat Verbeek 1989-90 25 HAR LW 80 44 45 89 228
Al Secord 1981-82 23 CBH LW 80 44 31 75 303
Pat Verbeek 1990-91 26 HAR LW 80 43 39 82 246
Keith Tkachuk 1993-94 21 WIN LW 84 41 40 81 255
Al Secord 1985-86 27 CBH LW 80 40 36 76 201
Gary Roberts 1989-90 23 CGY LW 78 39 33 72 222
Brian Sutter 1981-82 25 STL LW 74 39 36 75 239
Gerard Gallant 1988-89 25 DET LW 76 39 54 93 230
Willi Plett 1980-81 25 CGY RW 78 38 30 68 239
Gerard Gallant 1986-87 23 DET LW 80 38 34 72 216
Wendel Clark 1986-87 20 TOR LW 80 37 23 60 271
Gerard Gallant 1989-90 26 DET LW 69 36 44 80 254
Tiger Williams 1980-81 26 VAN LW 77 35 27 62 343
Brian Sutter 1980-81 24 STL LW 78 35 34 69 232
Kevin Dineen 1992-93 29 PHI RW 83 35 28 63 201
Gerard Gallant 1987-88 24 DET LW 73 34 39 73 242
Adam Creighton 1989-90 24 CHI LW 80 34 36 70 224
Rick Vaive 1980-81 21 TOR RW 75 33 29 62 229
Stan Smyl 1979-80 22 VAN RW 77 31 47 78 204
Rick Tocchet 1987-88 23 PHI RW 65 31 33 64 299
Paul Holmgren 1979-80 24 PHI RW 74 30 35 65 267
Chris Gratton 1996-97 21 TBL C 82 30 32 62 201

Just about every player on that list is a winger, the only center being Chris Gratton (although I do believe some players such as Creighton were in fact centers, at least for a good majority of his career was spent as one).

The last two players to accomplish this feat were Tkachuk and Gratton in 1996-97. Gratton's accomplishments that season also resulted in him hitting the jackpot after signing an outrageously high offer sheet from the Flyers.

Now the reason behind this post is due to a burning question that many dispute around here. What constitutes for a power forward? I used to consider a power forward to be a player who can fight, hit, and score. The players on the list for the most part met that criteria, with the likes of Tocchet, Shanahan and Clark being players that I view as the quintessential power forwards.

Nowadays there tends to be more of a leniency in labeling a player a power forward. It is certainly a type of player that I would consider a rare breed in today's NHL.
if you go by your list, it was a nonexistent breed prior to expansion in 1967. Only two players exceeded 200 penalty minutes in a seasion prior to expansion--Lou Fontinato, who had 202 in 1955-56 while with the Rangers, and Howie Young, the NHL's first goon, who had 273 in 1962-63 while with the Red Wings. Your threshhold of 200 penalty minutes means your survey of the tough and talented does not reflect all NHL history but only the post-expansion era. This isn't meant as a criticism of your post, but only as a notation of its limits.

There were pre-expansion players who were both "tough and talented," although they came along before the term power forward was coined and probably are not properly classed as power forwards in any event since they were much more than that. There were players who were near the top or at the top in both goals and penalty minutes. In 1953-54, for example, Maurice Richard was tops in goals scored with 37 and second in penalty minutes with 112, behind Black Hawks defenseman Gus Mortson's 132 minutes. Gordie Howe was second in goals scored with 33 and tied for fifth in penalty minutes with 109. And in 1954-55, Richard tied for the league lead in goals with 38 and was fifth in penalty minutes with 125 behind Fern Flaman's leading 150 minutes. In 1955-56, Jean Beliveau was tops in goals with 47 and third in penalty minutes with 143, behind Fontinato's record-breaking 202 and Ted Lindsay's 161. These are off the top of my head from three seasons I remember well. There probably are other examples of pre-expansion players who were near the top in both goals and penalty minutes.


Last edited by Peter9: 07-18-2011 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Added last two sentences
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Old
07-18-2011, 09:05 PM
  #19
TheMoreYouKnow
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I think PIM measures aggression rather than toughness anyway. In that regard, dividing the penalties by the specific offense committed doesn't really tell the whole story either. A hook isn't a hook, a slash isn't a slash. There's a multitude of contexts in which they can happen, sometimes indicating a generally aggressive attitude on part of an individual rather rough around the edges, sometimes merely the frustration of a star player when things aren't going his way.

In general, it's quite hard to reach 200 PIM as a forward if you aren't a fighter , so maybe the point here is more, star players who also were not averse to dropping the gloves with some frequency. I know Shanahan was more than willing to get involved in a physical exchange of views.

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07-18-2011, 09:09 PM
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Bryan Trottier
Bobby Clarke
Eric Lindros
Jarome Iginla
Mark Messier

Those are the first guys that come to mind when you say "tough" and "talented".

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07-19-2011, 07:35 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Ha. No one has ever been wrecked by Sakic and Alfredsson.

In the "fight" between Sakic and Gilmour there are maybe 4-5 punches thrown in the whole thing, maybe 3 land, and most of them are to the back of the head of Gilmour as he tries to tie up Sakic.

Alfredsson & Gilmour.. like two punches get thrown before they get tangled up and go down.

Get real. Gilmour wasn't a fighter and he gave up like 15-20 pounds even to a lightweight like Sakic.

And yes, I know I'm terribly biased, but also completely right. Gilmour was tough.
Gilmour is the one who specifically went after Joe Sakic. Sakic was the only one throwing punches and Gilmour ended the fight when he ducked and waited for the linesman to step in to avoid the TKO. That's the definition of a decisive win.

As for the Alfredsson fight, Gilmour got knocked down by a big punch.



A tough guy doesn't fight guys like that, and if he does, at least he wins the fights.

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07-19-2011, 07:56 AM
  #22
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Seguin View Post
A tough guy doesn't fight guys like that, and if he does, at least he wins the fights.
Your problem is that you are equating fighting with toughness.

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