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If Kovalev called PG and offered him 1Y/1M.. Would you?

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07-17-2011, 09:01 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Yeah he sucked in his last year here, 26 goals and 65 points.
So why exactly did BoB send him home? for a well deserved break?
He's since had seasons of 54 and 44 points
Looks like a definite decline to me

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07-17-2011, 09:02 AM
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Yes I remember, he was our best forward in his last year with the Habs.
Lang was our best forward that year (FYI)

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07-17-2011, 09:03 AM
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Martin coaching Kovalev?

Prepare for a year of drama and "worst day in Habs history" every other day.

I thoroughly enjoyed his years here in Montreal (except maybe that one year we had Samsonov as well). But I like our top 6 as it is, and I don't want him in the bottom 6.

And I agree that the whole "taking most nights off" thing is overstated. He worked hard in the gym, was dedicated to hockey, but he gave up too easily. If he tried a few moves that didn't work or plays that his linemates couldn't finish, it's like he entered "Yeah? Well **** you guys" mode and just stopped trying.

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07-17-2011, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
So why exactly did BoB send him home? for a well deserved break?
Because he was expecting a career 65 point player to give 84 points like he did the previous year, so were Habs fans.

You can't argue with numbers, he was our best forward, he played well that year.

As for the definite decline, a 40 point forward is what the Eller-AK46 line needs, and once the injuries happen it will be a better match for the top-6 then Travis Moen.

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07-17-2011, 09:05 AM
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no no no, give that ice time to our younger players. We do not need Kovalev and around this group of players I don't think it would work out

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07-17-2011, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Lang was our best forward that year (FYI)
Wrong.

Lang had 39 points in 50 games, Kovalev had 65 points in 78 games. Kovalev's stats were a little better, and he did it over a larger sample.

Carbonneau dropped the ball that year by not playing Pacioretty-Lang-Kovalev as a line.

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07-17-2011, 09:07 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Yes I remember, he was our best forward in his last year with the Habs.
So because he was our 'best' forward 3 YEARS AGO, it means what exactly? Also, he may have been the 'best' player then, but let's also not forget that he was getting 20+ mins a game and basically did whatever the hell he wanted and still underachieved.

Hell, the dude WAS SENT HOME BY THE GM...can you name me another player in the history off the NHL who had to be sent home for 3 days just so he can get his **** together?

He can't even skate anymore, he barely shoots cause it takes him a half hour to get his shot off, he's had multiple knee injuries the last few years, he's only effective when he has alot of space and time (i.e. on the PP) but even then, he's more interested in trying to deke every player on the ice, instead of doing something direct towards the net.

I get that some segment of HabsNation prefers to watch a guy make stickhandling drills on the ice, rather than do something productive, but thankfully the people employed with getting the most out of its players, the coaches, think otherwise.

He's completely useless on the ice...he's more often than not, a liability.

If I wanted to watch Kovalev spend his time stickhandling on the ice...i'll go buy his 'skills DVD'.

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07-17-2011, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So because he was our 'best' forward 3 YEARS AGO, it means what exactly? Also, he may have been the 'best' player then, but let's also not forget that he was getting 20+ mins a game and basically did whatever the hell he wanted and still underachieved.

Hell, the dude WAS SENT HOME BY THE GM...can you name me another player in the history off the NHL who had to be sent home for 3 days just so he can get his **** together?

He can't even skate anymore, he barely shoots cause it takes him a half hour to get his shot off, he's had multiple knee injuries the last few years, he's only effective when he has alot of space and time (i.e. on the PP) but even then, he's more interested in trying to deke every player on the ice, instead of doing something direct towards the net.

I get that some segment of HabsNation prefers to watch a guy make stickhandling drills on the ice, rather than do something productive, but thankfully the people employed with getting the most out of its players, the coaches, think otherwise.

He's completely useless on the ice...he's more often than not, a liability.

If I wanted to watch Kovalev spend his time stickhandling on the ice...i'll go buy his 'skills DVD'.
I'm criticizing the inane argument that Kovalev sucked in his last year here.

As for plenty of space, the subject of this thread is do we want Kovalev to complete the Eller-AK46 line when the team is healthy, and to go on the top-6 when there are multiple injuries?

I prefer Kovalev for that role, other people prefer Travis Moen / Matthieu Darche.

As for Gainey, he was not anchored by reality in that period. His entire management that year made no sense.

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07-17-2011, 09:10 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
So why exactly did BoB send him home? for a well deserved break?
He's since had seasons of 54 and 44 points
Looks like a definite decline to me
the decline is even worse then you imagine...since he got 65pts (getting a ****load of icetime and any freedom he wanted on the ice)

he's since managed to get 49pts in his 1st year with the Sens, then 27pts split between the Sens/Pens last year.

Hell, the Pens gave up a 7th round pick last year for him and they want NOTHING to do with bringing him back, they prefered spending their summer courting 40 year old Jaromir Jagr for 1.5M.

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07-17-2011, 09:15 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm criticizing the inane argument that Kovalev sucked in his last year here.

As for plenty of space, the subject of this thread is do we want Kovalev to complete the Eller-AK46 line when the team is healthy, and to go on the top-6 when there are multiple injuries?

I prefer Kovalev for that role, other people prefer Travis Moen / Matthieu Darche.

As for Gainey, he was not anchored by reality in that period. His entire management that year made no sense.
Misrepresenting the truth doesn't help making your argument. People would likely prefer Desharnais to Darche/Moen.

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07-17-2011, 09:18 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm criticizing the inane argument that Kovalev sucked in his last year here.

As for plenty of space, the subject of this thread is do we want Kovalev to complete the Eller-AK46 line when the team is healthy, and to go on the top-6 when there are multiple injuries?

I prefer Kovalev for that role, other people prefer Travis Moen / Matthieu Darche.

As for Gainey, he was not anchored by reality in that period. His entire management that year made no sense.
I never said Kovalev sucked his last year with the Habs...I said he got a ****load of icetime and did whatever the hell he wanted on the ice, he'd spend sometimees the full 2 mins on the ice for the PP, he'd have extra long shifts, ignore defensive assignments, etc...

Yeah, its great, he got 65pts (half of which were on the PP btw) on a year where no other forward topped 50pts.

I still don't get the correlation you're trying to make between the 'decen't year he got 3 years ago, and how he could help the Habs today...what's the correlation?

As for Gainey, look...i don't really care, point is he banished Kovalev from the team for 3 days so he could get his **** together. I've never in my near 30 years of watching hockey, ever heard about a coach/GM doing that to one of his players....check that, forget just hockey, in sports in general.

Gimme a break...the guy had some great years with the Pens, some good one's with the Habs which included an exceptional year (again, after Gainey had to take him on a walk around the Old Port to beg him to play up to his potential) but today, Kovalev is just sublimely talented player who still hasn't figured out how to express that talent in a team environment.

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07-17-2011, 09:19 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Misrepresenting the truth doesn't help making your argument. People would likely prefer Desharnais to Darche/Moen.
If you look at Martin's decisions last year, Moen and Darche were the preferred choices to play top-6 when injuries happened, not Desharnais.

As such, it's reasonable to expect that with this roster, it will be Moen and Darche who get the nod.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. That is what Martin chose to do.

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07-17-2011, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If you look at Martin's decisions last year, Moen and Darche were the preferred choices to play top-6 when injuries happened, not Desharnais.

As such, it's reasonable to expect that with this roster, it will be Moen and Darche who get the nod.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. That is what Martin chose to do.
I like how you start off by speculating about what Martin might want to do based on a meaningless premise and by the end of your post you say it with authority so something in the future that possibly not even Martin could tell you right now becomes fact... and all that still doesn't mean anything because people don't want Kovalev because they see DD there regardless of what Martin "might" do since I could just as easily make the claim Martin wouldn't want Kovalev at all.

Good job, I'm impressed.

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07-17-2011, 09:26 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I never said Kovalev sucked his last year with the Habs...I said he got a ****load of icetime and did whatever the hell he wanted on the ice, he'd spend sometimees the full 2 mins on the ice for the PP, he'd have extra long shifts, ignore defensive assignments, etc...

Yeah, its great, he got 65pts (half of which were on the PP btw) on a year where no other forward topped 50pts.

I still don't get the correlation you're trying to make between the 'decen't year he got 3 years ago, and how he could help the Habs today...what's the correlation?

As for Gainey, look...i don't really care, point is he banished Kovalev from the team for 3 days so he could get his **** together. I've never in my near 30 years of watching hockey, ever heard about a coach/GM doing that to one of his players....check that, forget just hockey, in sports in general.

Gimme a break...the guy had some great years with the Pens, some good one's with the Habs which included an exceptional year (again, after Gainey had to take him on a walk around the Old Port to beg him to play up to his potential) but today, Kovalev is just sublimely talented player who still hasn't figured out how to express that talent in a team environment.
I was responding to the posts that implied Kovalev sucked in his last year. He did not suck. As for you seeing unique things, there was a lot of unique with respect to the Habs 2008-09 season. We had Gorges in the top-6. We had injuries to Koivu, Higgins, Tanguay, Latendresse, Lang, Markov, Komisarek, Schneider, AK46... worst year for injuries I've ever seen. We had Carbonneau say that the Habs problem was that there was no Ovechkin or Crosby on the team. We had the GM single out the best offensive player on the team for playing at the same level he's played at his entire career. And then we let Koivu to acquire the inferior Gomez by giving up elite blue chip prospect McDonagh to acquire the worst contract in the league, the worst trade I've ever seen.

Now, all that said, I mostly agree with you on Kovalev. I think he's an underachiever, and I think he's no longer the career 65 point player he was. I think if we get Kovalev, we're getting a 40 point player on the cheap. Maybe you think we'll get a 25-30 point player. The disagreement is I see that as filling a need, you see it as not.

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07-17-2011, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If you look at Martin's decisions last year, Moen and Darche were the preferred choices to play top-6 when injuries happened, not Desharnais.

As such, it's reasonable to expect that with this roster, it will be Moen and Darche who get the nod.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. That is what Martin chose to do.
There's a reason why Martin chose to put Moen & Darche in those positions...it's pretty simple actually, and it's because Moen & Darche play a very simple game. They go up and down their wing, they crash the net, the backcheck, they do the little things that coaches appreciate and also the little things which every line needs to have success.

Kovalev is NOT this type of player...maybe adding Kovalev to Eller-Kostitsyn works great on PS3, but in the NHL where players have certain specific assignments/role, he does not fit into what the Habs are trying to do.

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07-17-2011, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I like how you start off by speculating about what Martin might want to do based on a meaningless premise and by the end of your post you say it with authority so something in the future that possibly not even Martin could tell you right now becomes fact... and all that still doesn't mean anything because people don't want Kovalev because they see DD there regardless of what Martin "might" do since I could just as easily make the claim Martin wouldn't want Kovalev at all.

Good job, I'm impressed.
I watched a lot of games last year. Moen and Darche were the preferred choices to go on the top-6 when there were injuries. That's not speculation, that's observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
There's a reason why Martin chose to put Moen & Darche in those positions...it's pretty simple actually, and it's because Moen & Darche play a very simple game. They go up and down their wing, they crash the net, the backcheck, they do the little things that coaches appreciate and also the little things which every line needs to have success.

Kovalev is NOT this type of player...maybe adding Kovalev to Eller-Kostitsyn works great on PS3, but in the NHL where players have certain specific assignments/role, he does not fit into what the Habs are trying to do.
I think he picked Moen and Darche because they were the best options available.

1) For example, a lot of fans were saying Pouliot should be getting those chances in the top-6 early in the season. I think he didn't because of the penalties. Pouliot would have provided more goals, but we would have been on the PK more frequently.
2) A lot of fans were saying Pacioretty. They did eventually give the opportunity to Pacioretty, my interpretation is they were letting him simmer in Hamilton for a while, letting him dominate for some time, and then they called him up, to optimize his development.

After that there were no skill players that Martin could have picked.

If Martin doesn't want Kovalev, then Kovalev won't be signed here.

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07-17-2011, 09:34 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I was responding to the posts that implied Kovalev sucked in his last year. He did not suck. As for you seeing unique things, there was a lot of unique with respect to the Habs 2008-09 season. We had Gorges in the top-6. We had injuries to Koivu, Higgins, Tanguay, Latendresse, Lang, Markov, Komisarek, Schneider, AK46... worst year for injuries I've ever seen. We had Carbonneau say that the Habs problem was that there was no Ovechkin or Crosby on the team. We had the GM single out the best offensive player on the team for playing at the same level he's played at his entire career. And then we let Koivu to acquire the inferior Gomez by giving up elite blue chip prospect McDonagh to acquire the worst contract in the league, the worst trade I've ever seen.

Now, all that said, I mostly agree with you on Kovalev. I think he's an underachiever, and I think he's no longer the career 65 point player he was. I think if we get Kovalev, we're getting a 40 point player on the cheap. Maybe you think we'll get a 25-30 point player. The disagreement is I see that as filling a need, you see it as not.
If the Habs signed Kovalev, and gave him the icetime he needs to produce (I don't think i've ever seen a player do less, with more, than I have Kovalev...both in terms of icetime and his own talent), the specific teamates he needs to play his game, absolved him of all defensive responsibility, gave him #1 priority on the PP, played him on his preferred right wing...then yeah, I could see Kovalev getting 40-50pts...

But then again, I also think the Habs would suffer from all sorts of internal strife and chemistry issues, there would probably be a mutiny in the dressing room and most important of all, they'd finish OUT of the playoffs.

When I say, i don't want Kovalev, it has nothing (or almost nothing) to do with how much he can produce. He's so talented that with alot of opportunity (and I mean alot) he'll produce reasonably well enough. But hockey is about so much more than that.

At this point in his career, with a team coached by Jacques Martin...he's just not a fit and I personally think he's going to have alot of trouble finding an NHL job this coming year, becaus he's such a high maintenance player...he's not worth the trouble.

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07-17-2011, 09:35 AM
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I watched a lot of games last year. Moen and Darche were the preferred choices to go on the top-6 when there were injuries. That's not speculation, that's observation.
It's like you didn't read the post you quoted. I'll explain again.

What Martin will do is unknown to you and me. At any rate, he won't have the same options he had last year. Also one could make the argument that what Martin experimented with in game 7 (ie DD on the wing) is a better measure of what is going to happen in the future than what happened earlier in the year before Martin had the idea of switching DD to wing.

Not only that, but what Martin thinks doesn't matter at all because if you wanna go down that route, then I could make the claim that Martin hates players like Kovalev and likely wouldn't want him at all to play on the third line and would keep him on the 4th line because he's a liability. You see how dumb and useless that argument is ? Neither one of us is in Martin's head, so what Martin thinks doesn't matter since we both don't have a clue what it is. Especially if we're talking about hypothetical situations in the future....

If you reply to me again that you observed something in the past in different circumstances and you've thus figured out exactly what Martin will do in the future despite the fact that's meaningless in our discussion I won't bother with you anymore.


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07-17-2011, 09:39 AM
  #44
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I think he picked Moen and Darche because they were the best options available.

1) For example, a lot of fans were saying Pouliot should be getting those chances in the top-6 early in the season. I think he didn't because of the penalties. Pouliot would have provided more goals, but we would have been on the PK more frequently.
2) A lot of fans were saying Pacioretty. They did eventually give the opportunity to Pacioretty, my interpretation is they were letting him simmer in Hamilton for a while, letting him dominate for some time, and then they called him up, to optimize his development.

After that there were no skill players that Martin could have picked.

If Martin doesn't want Kovalev, then Kovalev won't be signed here.
I don't understand what we're debating here...he chose Moen and Darche because they provide net drive, they're defensively sound and provide constant and dependable effort every shift.

Everytime Darche and Moen jump over the boards, JM knows what he'll get with those guys and on every line, Martin likes to have this type of player.

Kovalev does not do these small things, he's a high maintenance player who needs to be coddled to expunge optimal results from him. When he was 25-30 years old, it was worth it...but at this point in his career, he's not

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07-17-2011, 09:41 AM
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Kovalev? no thank you.

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07-17-2011, 09:42 AM
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If we sign Kovalev this year, the only way he's playing on the first line for significant lengths of time is if there are so many injuries to this team that we're competing for a lottery pick.

He'd be coming to be a third line player who can go on the second line when there are a lot of injuries (AK46 would be first choice). What are the choices for this?

1) Moen and Darche, like last season. Proven by history to be a favored strategy of Martin.
2) Another UFA. Stillman? Zherdev?
3) A trade. We could probably get a higher quality player by trade, but it would come at a cost of picks/prospects/roster players.
4) Rapid improvement in Desharnais, Palushaj, or Avtsin. Gauthier and coaching staff should have an informed opinion as to whether or not this is probable.

Kovalev at 1 million, for 1 year, would be an adequate choice imo, he could give ~40 points, his declining skill set would be ok against third line opposition.

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07-17-2011, 09:42 AM
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NO. The third line is shaping up to be a youthful one with Eller centering Deharnais and Kostitsyn. Our younger players need teh playing time more so than a player who should be considering retirement.

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07-17-2011, 09:45 AM
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I don't think that Kovy would get anywhere near 40 pts with 3rd line minutes and limited to none PP time

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07-17-2011, 09:47 AM
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I like the team that Gauthier is putting together, if you don't want to put in effort on and off the ice you can GTFO of here (Sergei + Pouliot). Kovalev just wouldn't fit in with this team.

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07-17-2011, 09:47 AM
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Hell no. DD or Palush need that spot! Even DarkVaDarch is a better option right now

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