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Gauthier and Gainey Transactions

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Old
07-18-2011, 02:33 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
It's the same reason Phoenix will overpay in a trade or signing for a center of Gomez caliber. (Not saying they'll trade for Gomez)

Nobody wants to play here and we needed a viable option at center.

If that doesn't make sense to people I don't know what does. Gainey was never expecting Gomez to be an elite #1C and I doubt he didn't realize he was overpaying either. But with nobody else willing to sign here for a few years of trying at UFA's. Anyone from Briere to Hossa. Then failing to trade for better overpaid centers, Gainey did what he felt was his final option.

Overpay for Gomez. You will see it happen again in the next 2-3 years if a team like Phoenix can't get a viable option to sign there as well.

Plus at the time I guarantee Sather was shopping Drury and not Gomez and when no GM's would entertain Drury and a few were likely nibbling on Gomez (similar cap hit) knowing full well he didn't "have to move him" he probably played hardball. Sather was the one holding most of the cards. Sucks but it's true. Plus I guarantee if Valentenko wasn't added to the deal people wouldn't be saying we overpaid as much as they are, and honestly Valentenko is a non-factor anyways.
It was also later revealed Sather had other suitors for Gomez before Free Agency started as noted by Brian Burke in a 'behind the scenes' reality snippet for Leafs TV.

I'm assuming we had to outbid other teams for his services, so Sather was in a rare stong position to trade an albatross contract. Perhaps a stronger year from Gomez this upcoming year and we may be in that enviable rare position next off-season when teams are fighting for the cap floor once again.

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07-18-2011, 03:26 PM
  #27
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I won't argue about it because most of it is right. While it's true that the fans in Montreal would not allow their team to suck for a few years in order to pick high and have a contender team for many years to come, it's also true that the GM's in the 2000's had a lot of work to accomplish to change things around.

On the other hand, even I always been a big fan of Gainey, as a player and as GM with Dallas, I have to say (in my opinion) that he hurt the team more than anything else. And following your argument, it is true it is hard to fix such mistakes in a short laps of time (Gomez, Ribeiro).

As for Gauthier, not the most flashy GM out there but competent enough so far.

And there's also the draft choices they made in the 2000's. Picking small and/or NCAA players is not what I would be aiming for. But this is a totaly different story and in the end, sometimes luck has something to do with NHL Draft ... I guess.
Yeah its hard to really know if Gauthier is actually a better GM than Gainey, or just in a better spot to actually be successful. Gainey, after all, did do a pretty good job when he was in Dallas. I even argued in an other post that i thought the Gomez trade was a necessary move, that there needed to be a push made towards getting star-calibre players back in the city along with those with winning pedigrees, and though Gomez has been a bust thus far, the team has improved since that deal was made (imo).

And when talking about the draft, well i really believe it was and always will be, a crapshoot. I mean if you look back at how awfully we drafted in the 90's, you'll see that a lot of the players were actually pretty big--so it's not like drafting size always works better. It's always easier to look back after a couple of years and say, "why didn't we draft that guy?" but if you're rarely drafting in the top 7-8, you're often not going to automatically get a top-end player.

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07-18-2011, 03:35 PM
  #28
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The Maxime Lapierre one wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. Yes the Ducks got more for him afterwards, but the Canucks needed that type of player for their playoff run. You always pay more at the deadline. Regardless, he had asked to be traded from Montreal at that time and who knows if Gauthier could have gotten more for him. He was having a horrible year.

The Ribeiro trade is the worst of Bob's time in Montreal. What a horrible deal...
Trading Huet cost us a stanley cup so I am pretty sure that one is worse. But hey we got a 2nd roundpick!!

Thank god we have someone now who isn't a complete moron, we can start to move forward.

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07-18-2011, 03:39 PM
  #29
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In black and white why we have not come close to a Cup nor will we any time soon.

Lots of trades for players who are not playing here for whatever reasons...but all the same not a legacy of team building for success.

I am at a meeting so I wont have time to do it, but I would love to see a comparison of the Gainey/Gauthier years of managing assets as compared to Holland in Detroit. I would be willing to bet that Holland had far fewer "throwaways" after completing a trade.

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07-18-2011, 03:39 PM
  #30
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Kind of wish we had O'Byrne right about now...

A big right handed defensive D who can fight is exactly what we need...

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07-18-2011, 03:50 PM
  #31
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I don't feel Gainey was a especially good GM. I don't think he was bad, but just not the cream of the crop. He was kind of old-NHL mentality, and not enough for a businessman.

But there are things he definitively brought to the team: leadership, character.

People were still dissing the habs and questioning their moves, but nobody was disrespecting Gainey. Nobody really can. Andre Savard wasn't a bad guy, but he wasn't a Leader. He wasn't a Captain like Gainey is naturally to his core.

From the outside it doesn't seam like a very important thing, but from the inside of an organisation, having a strong leader is paramount. It gives a clear sense of direction to everyone. A general doesn't need to have the greatest plan around, if he was his soldier's trust, he can go a long way.

And that's what Gainey bought. Stability. Accountability. Everybody knew who was the boss. And with the team getting more serious, more disciplined, came also self-respect and league credibility. Suddenly, the habs weren't the team that had sucked for ages and where nobody wanted to play. Now, it was a serious team, headed by a very respected GM, and they meant business.

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07-18-2011, 04:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
I don't feel Gainey was a especially good GM. I don't think he was bad, but just not the cream of the crop. He was kind of old-NHL mentality, and not enough for a businessman.

But there are things he definitively brought to the team: leadership, character.

People were still dissing the habs and questioning their moves, but nobody was disrespecting Gainey. Nobody really can. Andre Savard wasn't a bad guy, but he wasn't a Leader. He wasn't a Captain like Gainey is naturally to his core.

From the outside it doesn't seam like a very important thing, but from the inside of an organisation, having a strong leader is paramount. It gives a clear sense of direction to everyone. A general doesn't need to have the greatest plan around, if he was his soldier's trust, he can go a long way.

And that's what Gainey bought. Stability. Accountability. Everybody knew who was the boss. And with the team getting more serious, more disciplined, came also self-respect and league credibility. Suddenly, the habs weren't the team that had sucked for ages and where nobody wanted to play. Now, it was a serious team, headed by a very respected GM, and they meant business.
very well said

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07-18-2011, 05:05 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
It's the same reason Phoenix will overpay in a trade or signing for a center of Gomez caliber. (Not saying they'll trade for Gomez)

Nobody wants to play here and we needed a viable option at center.

If that doesn't make sense to people I don't know what does. Gainey was never expecting Gomez to be an elite #1C and I doubt he didn't realize he was overpaying either. But with nobody else willing to sign here for a few years of trying at UFA's. Anyone from Briere to Hossa. Then failing to trade for better overpaid centers, Gainey did what he felt was his final option.

Overpay for Gomez. You will see it happen again in the next 2-3 years if a team like Phoenix can't get a viable option to sign there as well.

Plus at the time I guarantee Sather was shopping Drury and not Gomez and when no GM's would entertain Drury and a few were likely nibbling on Gomez (similar cap hit) knowing full well he didn't "have to move him" he probably played hardball. Sather was the one holding most of the cards. Sucks but it's true. Plus I guarantee if Valentenko wasn't added to the deal people wouldn't be saying we overpaid as much as they are, and honestly Valentenko is a non-factor anyways.
The main problem with the Gomez deal is that Saku Koivu is a vastly superior second line center to Scott Gomez. He gets way more goals, he gets the same number of assists, they're comparable defensively and at faceoffs, and Koivu is signed to a lower cap hit, and less term. The second problem is that we gave up Ryan McDonagh.

There are two failures on Gainey's part. The first is that he failed to understand that Plekanec was a real deal. Pleks had the worst season of his career, and so Gainey was a nervous nellie and assumed Plekanec sucked, remember the 1-year contract?

We won't be missing the cap space for that long as I think Gomez will be traded in a year. What we'll be missing for years to come is Ryan McDonagh. Gainey failed to project how good he would become.

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07-18-2011, 05:14 PM
  #34
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I'll add, Gainey's worse failing was not having a good feel for the strength for the team.

1) In 2007-08, he should have bought at the deadline. Trading Huet was a waste, and Price was not ready.
2) After 2008, there was a lot of ******** of "it's not the player it's the system", with respect to our PP, and we let Streit go. In subsequent years, we ended up trading for Schneider, for Bergeron, and for Wisniewski, whereas Streit has gone on to kick ass in New York.
2) In 2005-06 and 2008-09, the team was a disaster and he shoulld have sold. We could have gotten a lot for Souray, Kovalev, Koivu, and Komisarek rather than going for failed playoff runs.

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07-18-2011, 05:41 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The main problem with the Gomez deal is that Saku Koivu is a vastly superior second line center to Scott Gomez. He gets way more goals, he gets the same number of assists, they're comparable defensively and at faceoffs, and Koivu is signed to a lower cap hit, and less term. The second problem is that we gave up Ryan McDonagh.

There are two failures on Gainey's part. The first is that he failed to understand that Plekanec was a real deal. Pleks had the worst season of his career, and so Gainey was a nervous nellie and assumed Plekanec sucked, remember the 1-year contract?

We won't be missing the cap space for that long as I think Gomez will be traded in a year. What we'll be missing for years to come is Ryan McDonagh. Gainey failed to project how good he would become.
To be honest I have a feeling Koivu wanted to move on. The team was going in a new unknown direction and at the time a lot was up in the air. He went on to play with Selanne and I think he intended to do that before Selanne has to retire. I really don't know what happened behind the scenes but if I had to guess Koivu told Gainey he was done after this season putting Gainey between a rock and a hard place.

I love Koivu and I know he likely didn't do it to hurt the team, it was just time to move on I guess. I believe it was his choice not the teams and the org was classy about it respected his decision and took the blunt of the blame. Notice nobody ever really came out and definitively said "we offered him a deal but he didn't want to play here". They wanted to keep his legend alive

I also have to admit one fault of Gainey's guaranteed was letting Streit walk.

I know it's total speculation but an HF poster around here a while back claimed to work the parking garage in Streit's building. Supposedly he even still had a place here at the time. Anyways the guy was saying that he bumped into Streit and actually asked him why he didn't sign here. Well apparently he was expecting Gainey to call him but the call never came and then the isles offered him money he couldn't refuse to he took it. Either a total lack of communication by Gainey or simply poor asset management.

Regardless this poster even mentioned that Streit said had Montreal offered him a similar or even cheaper contract, he would have likely taken it over NYI.

Obviously this poster could have been full of **** but if that's honestly true I find it aggrivating that this has happened.

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07-18-2011, 06:00 PM
  #36
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What I had heard of Streit is that he wanted something on the order of 3 years, 9 million, and Gainey never made an offer.

As for Koivu, I remember him hanging around Montreal and being a UFA for a week or two.

I really think the Gomez deal was because they underestimated Plekanec. There was much talk about how teams are built down the middle, Montreal is weak down the middle, Jean Beliveau was a center, etc etc. In that summer Gainey traded for Gomez. He also signed Mikael Johansson and around that time, Andreas Engvist. The 2009 NHL entry draft was all about center... Leblanc, Nattinen, Dumont, Walsh, Cichy... 5 of 8 players were centers. Statistically unlikely without an overreaction. The talk got Gainey's head, and he panicked imo.

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07-18-2011, 06:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
To be honest I have a feeling Koivu wanted to move on. The team was going in a new unknown direction and at the time a lot was up in the air. He went on to play with Selanne and I think he intended to do that before Selanne has to retire. I really don't know what happened behind the scenes but if I had to guess Koivu told Gainey he was done after this season putting Gainey between a rock and a hard place.

I love Koivu and I know he likely didn't do it to hurt the team, it was just time to move on I guess. I believe it was his choice not the teams and the org was classy about it respected his decision and took the blunt of the blame. Notice nobody ever really came out and definitively said "we offered him a deal but he didn't want to play here". They wanted to keep his legend alive

I also have to admit one fault of Gainey's guaranteed was letting Streit walk.

I know it's total speculation but an HF poster around here a while back claimed to work the parking garage in Streit's building. Supposedly he even still had a place here at the time. Anyways the guy was saying that he bumped into Streit and actually asked him why he didn't sign here. Well apparently he was expecting Gainey to call him but the call never came and then the isles offered him money he couldn't refuse to he took it. Either a total lack of communication by Gainey or simply poor asset management.

Regardless this poster even mentioned that Streit said had Montreal offered him a similar or even cheaper contract, he would have likely taken it over NYI.

Obviously this poster could have been full of **** but if that's honestly true I find it aggrivating that this has happened.
Souray, Streit, Tanguay. All assets that were allowed to just walk for nothing and we got nothing in return for them. That is terrible asset managment that can kill your rebuild. Those 3 alone could have netted us several 1st round picks and changed the face of this franchise. gainey rode his past success almost his entire tenure here, really don't understand how he lasted as long as he did.

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07-18-2011, 06:08 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Souray, Streit, Tanguay. All assets that were allowed to just walk for nothing and we got nothing in return for them. That is terrible asset managment that can kill your rebuild. Those 3 alone could have netted us several 1st round picks and changed the face of this franchise. gainey rode his past success almost his entire tenure here, really don't understand how he lasted as long as he did.
Riight, Tanguay is the one I always forget.

Souray
Streit
Tanguay
Komisarek
Kovalev
Koivu
Possibly Higgins and others who left.

I remember being disappointed that Gainey failed to deal those 4 guys (KKKT) at the end of 2009. We would have rocked the 2009 NHL entry draft.

I wasn't that afraid about the failure to resign Markov, as I was confident in Gauthier's ability to get a deal done.

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07-18-2011, 06:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Riight, Tanguay is the one I always forget.

Souray
Streit
Tanguay
Komisarek
Kovalev
Koivu
Possibly Higgins and others who left.

I remember being disappointed that Gainey failed to deal those 4 guys (KKKT) at the end of 2009. We would have rocked the 2009 NHL entry draft.

I wasn't that afraid about the failure to resign Markov, as I was confident in Gauthier's ability to get a deal done.
At the time I wanted Koivu, Tanguay and Streit back but I wanted Souray traded so bad it was crazy. The team was limping half dead towards the playoffs and completly reliant on Souray. It was obvious to even the timbits that we were going nowhere. The guy was having a career year and we did nothing.

I didn't think Komi and Kovalev had much value left so I didn't care about them. The thing is gainey knew damn well all along he wasnt going to re-sign them so these non-moves feel more like ineptitude than anything.

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07-18-2011, 06:19 PM
  #40
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This year, AK46, Gill, and Moen are our impending UFAs.

WWGD -- What will Gauthier Do?

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07-18-2011, 06:27 PM
  #41
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This year, AK46, Gill, and Moen are our impending UFAs.

WWGD -- What will Gauthier Do?
- If Akost gets over 25goals he will be re-signed

- If 2 of Tinordi/Beaulieu/Diaz/Yemelin is ready for full NHL time Gill is toast.

- Moen is gone.

My predictions.

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07-18-2011, 06:41 PM
  #42
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After reading the replies it's amazing how many unrestricted free agents we let play out their time in Montreal. Teams always pay to much for players at the deadline and it's too bad the Habs didn't take advantage of that.
Like someone said , all those draft picks would have piled up. It makes you want ot shake your head.

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07-18-2011, 07:05 PM
  #43
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Riight, Tanguay is the one I always forget.

Souray
Streit
Tanguay
Komisarek
Kovalev
Koivu
Possibly Higgins and others who left.

I remember being disappointed that Gainey failed to deal those 4 guys (KKKT) at the end of 2009. We would have rocked the 2009 NHL entry draft.

I wasn't that afraid about the failure to resign Markov, as I was confident in Gauthier's ability to get a deal done.
Problem is we were never in a rebuilding mode. We were always a fringe playoff team who had to battle to make it. Is a full rebuild possible in Montreal? I'm not sure. The right time to rebuild was early 2000. We had nothing back then. Gainey arrived when we started to have a decent group.

All that to say that it would have been difficult to let most of those UFAs go at the deadline when we were making the playoffs. And chances are Gainey always had the pressure to make the playoffs, making a few trades almost impossible.

And are we different than different teams? How come Dallas didn't trade Richards at the deadline? Didn't the Canucks lost Erhoff this past month? For nothing! Is it bad asset management? No...they had a shot at the Cup, and they went all in. I know the Canucks were and are a much better team than us, now and then, but still, when you make the playoffs, you have a shot at the cup. Just think about Carolina!

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07-18-2011, 07:08 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Souray, Streit, Tanguay. All assets that were allowed to just walk for nothing and we got nothing in return for them. That is terrible asset managment that can kill your rebuild. Those 3 alone could have netted us several 1st round picks and changed the face of this franchise. gainey rode his past success almost his entire tenure here, really don't understand how he lasted as long as he did.
With Souray I believe he should have been dealt. We needed more defensively responsible players so I would have understood that.

Losing him for nothing was dumb.

With Streit you know my opinion already

With Tanguay I agree with them letting him walk because he *****ed out in the playoffs.

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07-18-2011, 07:24 PM
  #45
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With Souray I believe he should have been dealt. We needed more defensively responsible players so I would have understood that.

Losing him for nothing was dumb.

With Streit you know my opinion already

With Tanguay I agree with them letting him walk because he *****ed out in the playoffs.
He was a 1st liner though and we gave up assets to get him so he should have been traded. I am of the belief that unless they have a no trade clause or are totally worthless no player should be allowed to just walk away for nothing.

Almost all of those players were top line/top pairing material, how can you explain that sort of loss of assets for nothing?

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07-18-2011, 07:42 PM
  #46
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Gauthier is indistinguishable from Gainey, they are the same era of the team. Gainey fired coaches, traded assets, failed to trade assets, lost players, signed players and overall didn't move the team that far in either direction backward or forward. Gauther will do more of the same, because they operate with the same objective.

Get to the playoffs, however crippled or overmatched, make money, see what happens.

I trust Gauthier will continue to spend assets to achieve this modest goal , will refuse to save assets in the pursuit of reaching higher, and he'll do that as long as he's employed here.

A lot of people around here like that, or fail to recognize it, but this is probably as good as it will get under this regime.

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07-18-2011, 07:46 PM
  #47
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Gauthier is indistinguishable from Gainey, they are the same era of the team. Gainey fired coaches, traded assets, failed to trade assets, lost players, signed players and overall didn't move the team that far in either direction backward or forward. Gauther will do more of the same, because they operate with the same objective.

Get to the playoffs, however crippled or overmatched, make money, see what happens.

I trust Gauthier will continue to spend assets to achieve this modest goal , will refuse to save assets in the pursuit of reaching higher, and he'll do that as long as he's employed here.

A lot of people around here like that, or fail to recognize it, but this is probably as good as it will get under this regime.
The Halak and Tinordi trades are two strong counterexamples.

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07-18-2011, 07:59 PM
  #48
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I disagree here. As we ALL know, Gomez' pedigree brought us a very successful off season. Furthermore, with him we have failed to miss the playoffs. Moreover, Gomez is a key cog as far as chemistry is concerned and by all accounts he is a great influence on the young guys. Yes, he has an 8 million dollar cap hit and yes he hasnt been all that great. But he has two cup rings and is a clutch guy during the playoffs. The intangibles he brings are undeniable and I am sick of everyone bashing this guy. McDonagh is a good player and it is unfortunate that he is with the Rangers. But Gomez is still a viable 2nd-3rd line center and as we have experienced, our team is far worse without him in the lineup, even when he plays injured.

Stop hating on the guy. He will likely be gone next season anyhow.
I agree. Gomez is a very solid player and part of the core of this team.

Bob Gainey made the best and worst trades of that list. That is what it's like being GM: You win some, you lose some. I think he had a solid tenure as GM and Pierre Gauthier has made some safe moves as GM so far as well.

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07-18-2011, 08:02 PM
  #49
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The Halak and Tinordi trades are two strong counterexamples.
All that does is raise another habit of Gauthier. He doesn't make need-for-need hockey trades, he's always giving futures or gaining futures. Unfortunately it's mainly to escape the immediate comparisons that trades draw. By the time Bournival or Palushaj or possibly Eller are deemed to have reached their potential fans will forget just exactly how those players were acquired. Gauthier is a deceptive trader out of necessity.

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07-18-2011, 08:40 PM
  #50
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Can't remember that T.J kemp deal.
You haven't miss the next Crosby! Don't worry..

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