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Old
07-18-2011, 09:08 PM
  #51
detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
Don't use cap space just because we have it. Save it for the deadline.

I don't think KH will make a trade but I believe he'll make a low risk Bertuzzi, Eaves, J-Will type signing in August.
When we have to pay to use it, you mean?

I'm hoping that Holland makes a low-risk signing, but we have 7 defensemen + Smith, and we have 14 forwards + a few in the AHL who are great call-up material.

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07-18-2011, 10:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I'm pretty sure both would help about the same.
Of course you are.
Of course the guy waived by Columbus is as good as a guy considered for Team Canada's defense.

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07-18-2011, 10:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
I didn't say he would, but there's no room for a player like Hannan anymore, especially after re-signing Ericsson and signing Commie. I'm optimistic that Commodore will help the team and be worth his $1m salary.

I also believe the Wings will be happy to bring up Smith if we need him.

Lidstrom
Kronwall
Stuart
Hannan <------ RIGHT HERE!!! THERE"s ROOM RIGHT HERE
White
Ericsson
Kindl
Commodore (AHL/Call up)
B. Smith (injury call up)
Janik (injury call up)
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Hannan? Doesn't make sense to me. There's a reason no one jumped on Hannan on July 1st and I don't think he's looking to give Detroit a great discount either.
The reason why is, like many veteran defenseman, he was overpaid and didn't realize that he wasn't going to get a ton of big $4M a year offers.
Now he's realizing his mistake and he's going to sign somewhere for a cheap, short-term contract to build up is asking price again.

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07-18-2011, 10:20 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Listen to what he said, Tin. Try to grasp the rationale behind the comment. Commodore is already here. If it's a choice between Commodore and Hannan before signing either, that's one thing. I'd probably go Hannan too, but Hannan at 2-4 mil versus Commodore at 1? Much different.

At any rate, one guy has already been signed. Signing the other at this point would be silly. Detroit already has 7 NHL dmen signed, or even 6 + Kindl if we want to be droll.
Commo can be dumped to the AHL.He's not entitled to a job.
My guess is that Hannan signs for 1 year at $2M or even less.
I'd like it to be in Detroit. Dump Commodore to the AHL. If he can handle it from Columbus, then he's got to understand it's a possibility in Detroit.

Or, should everyone go into camp knowing they don't have to worry about their job?

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07-18-2011, 11:52 PM
  #56
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I have been here before but forgot my login, but thank you for the welcome. What i was thinking was an offer to a last yr contract holder that ups his salary this yr as a way to pay him less per yr. Example: if player x makes 2 mil this yr and gets a new 5 yr 20 mil contract his salary goes up 2 mil this yr to 4 mil. Leaves 4 yrs at 4 left. So if you have a guy who at end of this yr was going to get offered a 4 yr contract you just gave him 2 mil of it by signing him with this yrs cap space. The last yr of current contract is replaced with 1st yr of new contract.
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
welcome to the boards!

to answer your question

no, the cap hit is taken from the average salary over the length of a contract. even if they signed Kronwall to a longterm contract that payed him 8 million (just as an example) in 2012-13, the cap hit would only be his average salary over the length of of the deal. I wouldn't expect Kronwall's cap hit to be anything more than 5 or 6 million, even if it's a short term deal. Plus there's still a good chance that this is Lidstrom's last year, so I don't think they're taking Kronwall or Stuart's future contracts into much consideration this year.

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Old
07-19-2011, 12:40 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
Actually, the answer to that question from people (like myself) whining about Holland is the deals those players signed are irrelevant since Holland never even talked to them so we'll never know what terms might have been worked out with the Red Wings organization.

Worst case scenario: we lose a late round pick. Oh noes.

Sure does make your Holland worship seem a lot more reasonable though if one presents it as anyone who wanted to pursue Wiz or Ehrhoff would have necessarily wanted the deals they ended up getting.
So we spend a 4th rounder to get the player's rights, offer him a contract that is less (in salary/term) than the one he signed in reality, he says "no thanks," signs elsewhere, and we're out a 4th rounder (which may be considered "low" to you, but recent 4th rounders include promising prospects like Nyquist and Pulkinnen). Pass.

If they wanted to take less to play for a top contender, there was nothing stopping them from doing that. Instead, they signed with Columbus and Buffalo.

You can pass off the contracts they actually signed as "irrelevant" in order to take a shot at Holland, but you look silly doing so. In reality, they are very relevant, because they reveal 1) what these guys were trying to get, and 2) that signing for less with a top contender was not something they were all that interested in.


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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
I wouldn't really take issue with those terms either.

Look, a struggling, small market team like Columbus is going to have to overpay to land sought-after UFAs; just the way it is and always has been.

In the case of Ehrhoff one has to look at the circumstances surrounding the team he signed with. Buffalo was trying to win the Brad Richards sweepstakes, so it was imperative for them to keep Ehrhoff's cap hit very low, which means they had a very strong motivation to make the deal loooooong term.

Since the Red Wings are neither small market, nor struggling, and cap space was not a pressing issue it seems very possible when being rational that Detroit could have negotiated a more suitable deal with either player.
That's a poor attempt at being rational. Seems more like a suspension of reality. You went from point A to point C while skipping point B. And point B is that there's nothing to indicate these players would have taken less to sign with Detroit. In fact, they had the opportunity to do so and passed. It should be pretty obvious that both these guys were looking to cash in (Ehrhoff is getting paid $10M this year for crying out loud). You're making quite the reach.

The point that Columbus has to overpay and Buffalo has to offer longer term is irrelevant in regards to the idea that 'Detroit could have got them for less.' You have to assume that they were interested in Detroit in the first place. Indications appear otherwise.

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07-19-2011, 01:42 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
Commodore signed a 1-way contract so sending him to the AHL might not be that easy, especially since his contract is only $1m. I don't think it's fair to assume he's going to be terrible in a bottom paring role.

If you had suggested signing Hannan and letting Ericsson walk about a month ago, I'd have been all for it. But it's too late for that, our defense seems to be set and signing Hannan now would be overkill.
We could package Ericssons big dumb ass in a trade to someone for a top six forward. I'm sure someones looking for a big rig on defense.

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07-19-2011, 05:52 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by winger7020 View Post
We could package Ericssons big dumb ass in a trade to someone for a top six forward. I'm sure someones looking for a big rig on defense.
I was thinking the same thing. They could just be keeping some cap space open for a potential trade at the deadline. Ericsson's contract isn't that bad especially if he performs well. They could package Hudler+Ericsson+picks/prospect (maybe even Filppula) for a forward or a top defenseman. We would have to see how teams are doing around that time to see who would be willing to sell at that point.

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07-19-2011, 01:53 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
So we spend a 4th rounder to get the player's rights, offer him a contract that is less (in salary/term) than the one he signed in reality, he says "no thanks," signs elsewhere, and we're out a 4th rounder (which may be considered "low" to you, but recent 4th rounders include promising prospects like Nyquist and Pulkinnen). Pass.
Or... we spend a 4th rounder to get the player's rights, offer him a contract that is more (in salary/term) than the one he was offered by his previous team, he says "thanks" and signs here. It's just as likely.

If Ehrhoff didn't sign I hope Holland is at least as smart as Garth Snow and would trade the rights to get his 4th round pick back.

Crisis averted!

Quote:
If they wanted to take less to play for a top contender, there was nothing stopping them from doing that. Instead, they signed with Columbus and Buffalo.

You can pass off the contracts they actually signed as "irrelevant" in order to take a shot at Holland, but you look silly doing so. In reality, they are very relevant, because they reveal 1) what these guys were trying to get, and 2) that signing for less with a top contender was not something they were all that interested in.
The other deals are irrelevant because if Holland dealt for the rights he wouldn't have heard them. So unless Christian Ehrhoff has mind powers they are not germane to the reality of any negotiation that would have occurred between him and the Detroit Red Wings three days prior to free agency.

Those deals are a better indicator of what those teams were willing to offer; not what the player asked. You don't know that he sat down and demanded a 10 year deal, but that doesn't preclude him from accepting one if Buffalo is going to put it on the table.


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That's a poor attempt at being rational. Seems more like a suspension of reality. You went from point A to point C while skipping point B. And point B is that there's nothing to indicate these players would have taken less to sign with Detroit. In fact, they had the opportunity to do so and passed. It should be pretty obvious that both these guys were looking to cash in (Ehrhoff is getting paid $10M this year for crying out loud). You're making quite the reach.
It's not a huge reach if we consider that Detroit could have offered the same (or close) money over a shorter term. Would you find it terribly egregious if we gave Ehrhoff $35 mil over 7 years? The big issue people seem to have is the fact that the deal is a decade long and he'll be 39 by then.

Don't sign White, don't resign Ericsson, and there's your money with cap space aplenty left over.

Quote:
The point that Columbus has to overpay and Buffalo has to offer longer term is irrelevant in regards to the idea that 'Detroit could have got them for less.' You have to assume that they were interested in Detroit in the first place. Indications appear otherwise.
What indications? Holland. never. talked. to. them.

I think it's fair to assume they both would have considered coming here and if they heard a proposal from Detroit instead of Buffalo or Columbus maybe they would have jumped on it. If not, no biggie.

It's not required that Detroit be their dream destination, just that we show interest and (most importantly) have a monopoly on their attention which we would have three days prior to free agency.


Last edited by icKx: 07-19-2011 at 01:59 PM.
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Old
07-19-2011, 02:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
Commodore signed a 1-way contract so sending him to the AHL might not be that easy, especially since his contract is only $1m. I don't think it's fair to assume he's going to be terrible in a bottom paring role.

If you had suggested signing Hannan and letting Ericsson walk about a month ago, I'd have been all for it. But it's too late for that, our defense seems to be set and signing Hannan now would be overkill.
Why are you concerned with preserving our now 6/7 defenseman if you were willing to accept Hannan over our #5 defenseman?
We have the cap room to pay Hannan, and you believe he's potentially better than Ericsson, why not sign him?

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07-19-2011, 03:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
Or... we spend a 4th rounder to get the player's rights, offer him a contract that is more (in salary/term) than the one he was offered by his previous team, he says "thanks" and signs here. It's just as likely.
When we consider reality, and what these players actually signed for, no, it's not just as likely. Is it not obvious to you that these players were looking for their career contracts? There's no reason to think that the Wings would have got them signed for some amount/term that isn't pretty close to what they actually got.


Quote:
The other deals are irrelevant because if Holland dealt for the rights he wouldn't have heard them.
Yeah he wouldn't have heard those exact terms, but he would have heard from these players' agents about what money/term they were looking for, and it was clearly too much. These players and their agents aren't stupid, they had a good idea of how the market was shaping up the week leading up to free agency. They knew the needs around the league and the cap space available. You're stuck in a fantasyland if you think the deals they actually signed have no bearing on what they would have hypothetically signed for in Detroit. Those contracts did not occur in a vacuum.


Quote:
Those deals are a better indicator of what those teams were willing to offer; not what the player asked. You don't know that he sat down and demanded a 10 year deal, but that doesn't preclude him from accepting one if Buffalo is going to put it on the table.
It's an indicator of both, and you have no idea which indication is "better." But it's a moot point. The reality is that it is an indicator of what these players were looking for. And that's all that matters, because it has a strong bearing on what they would have been asking for from Detroit. Again, these guys knew the market. Do you honestly believe that, as guys trying to cash in, they would have accepted a smaller deal from Detroit while knowing full well that they could get significantly more the next day from the Columbuses and Buffalos of the NHL?


Quote:
It's not a huge reach if we consider that Detroit could have offered the same (or close) money over a shorter term. Would you find it terribly egregious if we gave Ehrhoff $35 mil over 7 years?
With a NMC and 7 years for a guy that has neither been in the organization before nor been an elite-level player? And the fact that he'd be getting $9M or $10M in year one, including receiving $7M or $8M as a signing bonus before he's even played a single game to boot? Yes, I would be opposed to that. Too much risk and too many concessions for a mid-level player.


Quote:
What indications?
Reality. The contracts they actually ended up signing and the teams they actually ended up signing with. The fact that they cashed in when, if they had wanted to, they could have waited until July 1 and talked to Detroit.


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I think it's fair to assume they both would have considered coming here and if they heard a proposal from Detroit instead of Buffalo or Columbus maybe they would have jumped on it. If not, no biggie.
No biggie, except for that lost 4th rounder. Based on what they actually signed for, there's no reason to think they would have signed with Detroit for significantly less. And anything more than significantly less would be an overpayment.

I mean, had these guys signed for significantly less, or with another top-tier team, I'd understand the gripe here. But they didn't. They cashed in with mediocre/bad teams. They passed on the opportunity to talk to top teams. Money was clearly their #1 priority, and I don't fault them for it, but those aren't the guys Detroit should be pursuing.

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07-19-2011, 03:55 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
Because I rather we replace one of our crappy forwards that we have signed (i.e. Hudler) with our extra cap room than a defenseman that might actually work out, and is only signed for $1m.

.
OK. Say you replace Hudler with a $5M a year forward.
You still have 4M to play with.

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07-19-2011, 06:14 PM
  #66
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Well, seeing as how the Wings have the cap space, the wings could really use a top 6 winger, and the Capitals need to clear cap space because of shoddy management, I say we go the oposite way from goalie hunting and offer up Huds and Filps and two firsts in exchange for Ovy ;P

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07-19-2011, 06:19 PM
  #67
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Commo can be dumped to the AHL.He's not entitled to a job.
That's poor planning which will also hurt the Wings chances to sign future UFAs to cheap deals to resuscitate their careers if after signing said deal they get shipped off to GR.

Quote:
My guess is that Hannan signs for 1 year at $2M or even less.
That's entirely possible. And if it is, that probably tells you that league wide there isn't really too much difference seen between the two guys.

Quote:
Or, should everyone go into camp knowing they don't have to worry about their job?


Oh, hi there Mr. Strawman... hot out, isn't it?

The Wings have 7 guys fighting for 6 spots, Tin. 8 if you count Smith. The only set-in-stone roles are Lidstrom on the #1 PP and Stuart on the #1 PK. Other than that pretty much everything is wide open. ES pairings, PP pairings and time, PK pairings and time... all of it.

There is plenty of competition for plenty of roles. Adding another vet dman after signing Commodore who does exactly what Commodore does is pretty wasteful, roster space-wise.

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07-19-2011, 06:23 PM
  #68
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why are we, people, even talking about scott hannan? why not jeff finger?

jesus..

this team needs a young elite top 6 winger and a back up goalie and thats it untill the trade deadline at wich time we will be in a position to address any weaknesses and add depth(blueline depth in the post-season is any teams #1 priority or at least it should be).

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07-20-2011, 09:03 PM
  #69
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well I think GM's primary jobs are

1) win championship
2) set up his organization so that it is in a great shape going forward

It sucks Wings didnt get some good free agents this summer but at this point, if 6 million in bank allows Wings to become a better team moving forward, I'm all for it.

The question you need to ask, are the Wings better today than last season? If the answer is no, or about the same he has not done job #1.

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07-20-2011, 09:52 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
The question you need to ask, are the Wings better today than last season? If the answer is no, or about the same he has not done job #1.
And if he had improved the team to your liking, job #1 would be done?

And even if the team is not "better today than last season" or "about the same," is there not approximately 7 more months before the trade deadline? I didn't know that the roster in the 3rd week of July is automatically the same roster that will be seen in April

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07-20-2011, 10:32 PM
  #71
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And if he had improved the team to your liking, job #1 would be done?

And even if the team is not "better today than last season" or "about the same," is there not approximately 7 more months before the trade deadline? I didn't know that the roster in the 3rd week of July is automatically the same roster that will be seen in April
you have a hell of a chip on your shoulder hey buddy...

jesus, you must be the most righteous ***** on hf boards without a doubt.

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07-20-2011, 10:52 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
you have a hell of a chip on your shoulder hey buddy...

jesus, you must be the most righteous ***** on hf boards without a doubt.
Forgive me for pointing out holes and flaws in the publicly-stated positions of others on a message board centered around debate, Mr. I-Hope-Osgood-Would-Have-Suffered-A-Season-Ending-Injury-Had-He-Returned. Sorry this isn't a sounding board for the thoughtless whining about Holland.

Don't make poor arguments or stupid statements, and you won't be called out. Simple. No need to be ******** about it

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07-20-2011, 11:20 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
That's poor planning which will also hurt the Wings chances to sign future UFAs to cheap deals to resuscitate their careers if after signing said deal they get shipped off to GR.



That's entirely possible. And if it is, that probably tells you that league wide there isn't really too much difference seen between the two guys.





Oh, hi there Mr. Strawman... hot out, isn't it?

The Wings have 7 guys fighting for 6 spots, Tin. 8 if you count Smith. The only set-in-stone roles are Lidstrom on the #1 PP and Stuart on the #1 PK. Other than that pretty much everything is wide open. ES pairings, PP pairings and time, PK pairings and time... all of it.

There is plenty of competition for plenty of roles. Adding another vet dman after signing Commodore who does exactly what Commodore does is pretty wasteful, roster space-wise.
So Commodore is guaranteed an NHL job.
Great plan.
Guy can't cut it in Columbus, gets a job in Detroit.

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07-20-2011, 11:20 PM
  #74
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Did you stop reading my post there? I'm pretty sure they still plan on acquiring a backup goalie (Conklin?) so there's at least another 600K-1m off that 4m.

I'm done talking about Hannan, I don't think Holland is interested or he would have signed him already. If they end up signing him, can I come to your party?
Ok. So $3.4M left.

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07-20-2011, 11:29 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
So Commodore is guaranteed an NHL job.
Great plan.
Guy can't cut it in Columbus, gets a job in Detroit.
Dallas Drake couldn't cut it in St. Louis, now he's a hero in Detroit.

At age 31, Commodore has a much better chance of rebounding than Drake did.

Anyway, it's funny that you're complaining about this but clamoring for Scott Hannan (who, oddly enough, no NHL team wants).

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