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Kevin Lowe

View Poll Results: Is Kevin Lowe overrated as a GM?
Yes 20 18.18%
No 90 81.82%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-03-2004, 06:00 PM
  #76
Sethis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mackdogs
Tough to give a guy praise for failed experiments too. I liked all the patchup jobs Lowe tried at the time, I was excited about all of them. But Dopita was a huge bust, and Oates was pretty iffy at best. This is where some of the overratedness comes for me - people are falling back on these like it was the right thing to do. Hindsight tells us it wasn't. Someone needs to take the fall for these experiments that didn't quite work out as planned and his name is Kevin Lowe. If Nedved doesn't re-sign here he will also be considered a failed experiment since he did NOT help us make the playoffs and we lost assets because of him.

And random thoughts.. Comrie is not a 1st line centre, and that is the main reason he left IMO. No one expects Lowe to find a Kiprusoff out there - goaltender or otherwise - I guess some of us just expect more than what he's getting. He hasn't managed to get enough NHL-ready bodies to fill holes. Perhaps a better thread would have been 'Do you think KLo is a good GM?' as overrated is just so ambiguous. And Todd Marchant should not have been allowed to just walk.
To defend myself I gotta say I'm not excusing the Oates/Dopita additions or saying they're a good thing, but it did show he was trying and the fact that they were nice, relatively risk-free moves that didnt really hurt the team in the long run (But obviously didnt help either) definitely supports his cause, and proved Lowe was trying to have the team remain competitive.

And as for Marchant in order to keep him you would have had to match Columbus' asinine offer, which I applaud Lowe for NOT doing.

The reason I admire Lowe the most though is that he respects his city, team and fans enough to remain as competitive as he could (every bit as much as Sathers teams were looking at year-end point totals) while re-building rather than just letting the team go to **** to get the top prospects in the draft, he relies on his scouting staff, and at this point that seems to be the right choice to make and he's been re-shaping this team piece-by-piece for some post-CBA glory as he promised.

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Old
08-03-2004, 06:02 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by mackdogs
If Nedved doesn't re-sign here he will also be considered a failed experiment since he did NOT help us make the playoffs and we lost assets because of him.
He gave up Helminen and a 4th. Big deal. You can't get a number one centre and expect to give up nothing for him.

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08-03-2004, 06:18 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Seachd
He gave up Helminen and a 4th. Big deal. You can't get a number one centre and expect to give up nothing for him.
Agreed man, like I said I was excited about all of the 'experiments'. I just don't see a lot of discussion around what happened with them, just that they DID happen. None of em got us to the promise land plain and simple.

We didn't give up a lot and Nedved's salary being paid was great. But at the end of the day if he does not re-sign was it a good move?

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08-03-2004, 06:27 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Sethis

On Rem - I thought for the majority of the year he was playing on the wings of players such as Reasoner, Horcoff, and Marchant.

On Mike - I actually always thought he was better at Center and actually find him to be one of the best and most well-rounded #2 centers in the league. The arguement can be made either way but to leave him out of the center equation despite the fact he's played the majority of his time here at that position is completely unfair IMO, because for the majority of his career in the NHL and I'm pretty sure in the NCAA up to that point he was playing Center, but his position in New York was helped along by his versatility, they didn't want him behind Messier, Nedved AND Lindros so they used him at the wing and it yielded great results.
For Rem, I believe he was alternating between LW/C during that season much like how Horcoff routinely plays that role. For York, I believe his talent, speed, and shot are invaluable for the team especailly off the rush. The Oilers have so few scorers on the team that for York playing center and being first to turn back on defense actually hurts the team scoring-wise at times. I don't think it was necessarily only that York was going to be buried at center behind Mess, Lindros and Nedved that he was moved up to the first line. It was a matter of the first line needing a hard-working complement at wing that he was put into that role to succeed. It was his talent on the wing that allowed him to stick there.

We should probably ask Mammett what the actual deal was about the entire situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis
K, first off:

http://www.nhl.com/lineups/player/8462077.html
http://nhlpa.com/Content/WebStats/P...p?PlayerId=2279
as a couple examples

When Lowe acquired Hecht I remember seeing him most frequently listed as a Center, he was used as a Winger in Edmonton and (I thought) in St. Loo, but he was listed as a center so he could be thrown in the equation if Stoll can't. And the point I was trying to make was at that point in the draft I'm guessing Lowe knew exactly who he wanted and while there was a chance he might not have been there, he was and Lowe took him, so the trade was made for a 2nd round pick but within the hour that was a C who is now playing in the NHL so it has to be at least justifiable that he was targetted by Lowe at the time the deal was struck (Whereas half-way through the year you pick up a second and have no idea who it might be) and is an asset from the trading of a center (Hecht/Weight) and is now playing in the league
And? Does being listed as a center actually make Jochen Hecht a center? He played wing here in Edmonton on the second line for the majority of the season and he played wing in St. Louis on the Handzus line I believe. Lowe traded for him as a winger irregardless of what's listed on those websites. If they traded him as a center, why did they not give him much time at that position. Why did either team fail to give him ample time at that position?

And as I said. You can say Lowe specifically targetted Deslauriers with the trade but it's much harder to justify saying Stoll was also directly #1 on the radar for the 34th overall. You are speculating and that is never a concrete point in a debate. :p Too many intangibles to conceive since we were never there at the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis
However, you said yourself the argument isn't about permanence or else I would have made a case for the prospects as well, your words were: "What I have been discussing is the fact that nothing has bridged the gap in regards to qualifiable NHL players at the pivot" and this kills your arguement that these three (Oates, Dopita, Nedved) cannot be counted simply because they were rent-a-players.

The argument being made here is Kevin Lowe's willingness and attempts at picking up a serviceable NHL Centerman, and with these acquisitions he did exactly that, he took a risk and we all knew that, we accepted it and looked forward to their additions to the team regardless, they didn't pan out and that is a shame but their play or the length of thier tenure is not what is in question here. (And how well they played obviously ties into their tenure as Lowe saw Nedved kick ass for us and went out and is trying to re-sign him)
Yup. I never mentioned performance once. Those three players certainly can be counted but it should be important that we recognize what they were - stop-gap solutions. They are neither long-term solutions for the NHL nor even long enough to bridge the prospect gap ( I also did indeed mention the approximate 3 year time frame as well).

Sure he took some risks and I suppose that is commendable. But none of those are long-term solutions or even mid-term solutions. They were all one-year stop-gap solutions. With the departure of players like Weight, Murray, Comrie, and Marchant there is a void left in terms of NHL ready players depth-wise. Now that would not necessarily be a detriment in and of itself but when not enough players come back to fill the void... there remains a gap between prospects and NHL ready depth. That is where the concern lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis
No, I don't think they were necesarily bridging towards the day our prospects pan out, who knows if that wil even happen? The point of their acquisitons was to shore up the center position until a new center was needed or a better center was accessable via trade/free agency/prospect ranks/whatever
Apparently, we agree on that point. But if we aren't bridging towards the day our prospects make the NHL, what exactly are we doing with one-year solutions? If none can make the jump, what position does that put the Oilers in? I would say that it makes the Oilers have to desperately search for help every single year to shore up that depth. To do that every year isn't the best way to "hedge your bets". Essentially, unless surprises happen in training camp, you are continually behind the 8-ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis
The point I am trying to make is that there were question marks applied to all of them staying in Edmonton

Had Weight gone on to play the next season with us he would have a) Been gone before the deadline, proabably for a comparable package, but would have also cost us 6 million in cap room as opposed to the (?) 2 million (?) Hecht and Reasoner cost us or b) Bolted at the end of the year for nothing. However we did trade him, thats why I merely said an arguement could be made for him. it is much easier to apply it to Marchant.

Marchant is in the exact same boat as Nedved. They were/are both UFA's with the team they both look/looked like they were going to leave the team but due to their connection to the city/team they still may/may have stayed/stay on with us. If we are to omit Nedved from the list for the reason that he bolted in free agency, we would have to do the same for Marchant. Although I see your arguement that Nedved was brought in under the knowledge that at the end of the year he could very well be be gone, it was the same for Marchant every day after he signed the contract the year before.
I still don't really think the Weight comparison works too well. But you're right. The Marchant one does work better. However, with Marchant, it was pretty obvious from Lowe's qualifying offer that he wasn't going to be back the following year. Otherwise Lowe would have given the same deal Gator did. Adding to the fact that Marchant had a career high in points, and a greater demand for UFA players than this year... it was good odds that Marchant was gone for good. But I think this might have been a bit offtopic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis
On another note, don't you love how you can have a respectful arguement that won't resort to name-calling and animosity on the Oiler board?
Nothing new to me. It's why I've been here for as long as I have.
LOL. On another note: Are you quoting like that to make it more difficult for me to respond? It's alright - it's just a little more difficult than just using the quote button.

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Old
08-03-2004, 07:28 PM
  #80
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Considering the Oilers' budget and how close the came to making the playoffs the past two seasons with the unlikely string of injuries to key players in 2002/2003 and then the injuries and holdout at center in 2003/2004, you can't fault Lowe.

This team wasn't even at the peak stage of their building cycle and they finished within a few games of 100 points. I'll start to give Lowe failing grades if the Oilers don't get right up to the 100 point mark by the end of this season, until that happens he's an "A" student imo.

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08-03-2004, 07:39 PM
  #81
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Really good debate here, as always. I'm in the momentai camp but I don't think we're really disagreeing with the other side that much. If I were to say "Kevin Lowe has done alot of positive things in terms of player procurement while putting a competitive team on the ice" I dont think many would disagree.

It's not exactly hair splitting, but I haven't seen too many "bring back Sather" posts since 2000. Maybe we can learn from the Sather experience. There was a time in my Oiler fandom when people were banished from my living room for making anti-Slats comments (I'm not joking) and by the time he left it was pretty much a welcome exit.

I don't think Kevin Lowe has peaked as a GM. I also don't think it is certain he will do that as Oilers' GM. As of 04-05 or the next time they play, all those fans who made do until 2004 will consider themselves deserving of a winner.

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08-03-2004, 07:52 PM
  #82
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Lowetide, your first post in this thread was a good one. But why it should take 6 pages to bring up the #1 cheif need of the Oilers is beyond me:

Goaltending.


Lowe stuck by his man (Salo) and got burned. Badly. His idea for a replacement are a couple of late 20's backups who have yet to prove they belong in the show as a starter.

I would say that had the Oilers gotten a goaltender who you could put a little bit of trust into, they would be easy playoff-contenders. In fact, the only seperation I see between the Oilers and, say, the Blues and the Preds, at this point is goaltending. The Oilers are a better team or close to it with either club, but Osgood (say what you want, but he's an experienced starter) and Vokoun (a real underrated keeper) are light years ahead of Conks or Markkanen. Why has Lowe continued to do nothing about this?

The Conklin signing indicates that he believes the goaltending right now is good enough. Honestly, it makes me just want to puke. I don't particularly dislike Conklin or Markkanen, but they are backup keepers folks! It's not even like they are Manny Legace or Martin Gerber or Mathieu Garon either - they arent even top-end backups! Sure they might be okay next year, but it's the same BS every year: goaltending question marks. Can we, for once, have a goaltender on the Oilers who we can all trust will play some decent hockey? Don't give me that 'Oh well 3 years ago Salo was okay'. That's still two years that Lowe sat on his hands and did diddly to get an experienced #1, or at least a guy who you might put two-and-two together and think he has starting potential next year like a Garon or a Gerber. Perhaps the most annoying thing about this whole mess is that the Flames picked up Kipper for a song, Garon was had for as I said a 3rd (in a round-about way), and guys like Kevin Weekes are on the trading block and Lowe didn't even blink.

Lowe is an average GM. I won't even say above average yet, I think he has to put together a consistant playoff team in his tenure to be considered above-average.

Lastly, about the prospects. You know what? George McPhee has really improved the Caps prospect pool. So has Craig Patrick. So has Darcy Regeir and Bob Pulford. Slipping out of the playoffs and drafting higher.. or trading away your best players for picks and drafting more .. to me, doesn't mean a lot. Sure, Lowe has better prospects. He's also picking way higher and way more than Slats used to. Knock Slats all you want, but I still see some good draft picks still kicking around (Alexei Semenov, some of you still really like Jani Rita, and Shawn Horcoff come to mind. Lowe has 'drafted well' because we haven't had enough time to see what picks have worked out. So far as I see, Alexei Mikhnov looks even worse than Rita does thus far, and Jesse Niinimaki is currently going into his third year in Europe. Very few European prospects after their 2nd year in Europe pan out. Not saying they are busts, but give it a year or two and they very well could be, and all of a sudden Lowe's drafting record is a lot worse than it is today. Then again, it could go the other way too, but personally I am not all that impressed with the prospects considering A) how he's gotten many of these picks, and B) In many cases, who he picks.

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08-03-2004, 08:07 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Sure, Lowe has better prospects. He's also picking way higher and way more than Slats used to.
Well, no. Lowe has drafted since 2000 at 17 (Mikhnov), 13 (Hemsky, traded up remember from 19), 15 (traded down one), 22 (traded down 5) and 14. So, over 5 years that is an average of 16.2 if they'd drafted without making a deal.

From 1995-99 Slats' Oilers drafted 6 (Kelly), 6 (Devereux), 14 (Riesen), 14 (Henrich) and 13 (Rita). I don't believe any of those were a trade up or down, but it's been awhile. Anyway, the average nummber there is 10.6

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08-03-2004, 08:08 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
That's still two years that Lowe sat on his hands and did diddly to get an experienced #1, or at least a guy who you might put two-and-two together and think he has starting potential next year like a Garon or a Gerber.
Try as I might, I can't see how: a) Garon or Gerber are any better than Conklin right now, or b) They have any more starting potential next year than Conklin.

Gerber's even older than Conklin, and his stats weren't even a whole lot better last year. Ditto with Garon. What am I missing?

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08-03-2004, 08:08 PM
  #85
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lowetide,

I didn't so much mean the first round actually, I was going on all those 2nd round picks in particular. It seems as of late Lowe has at least two high 2nd round picks, whereas Slats didn't seem to have nearly as much.

I'm sure if we all averaged it out, Lowe is picking higher than Slat's last couple of years.

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08-03-2004, 08:10 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Lowetide, your first post in this thread was a good one. But why it should take 6 pages to bring up the #1 cheif need of the Oilers is beyond me:

Goaltending.


Lowe stuck by his man (Salo) and got burned. Badly. His idea for a replacement are a couple of late 20's backups who have yet to prove they belong in the show as a starter.

I would say that had the Oilers gotten a goaltender who you could put a little bit of trust into, they would be easy playoff-contenders. In fact, the only seperation I see between the Oilers and, say, the Blues and the Preds, at this point is goaltending. The Oilers are a better team or close to it with either club, but Osgood (say what you want, but he's an experienced starter) and Vokoun (a real underrated keeper) are light years ahead of Conks or Markkanen. Why has Lowe continued to do nothing about this?

The Conklin signing indicates that he believes the goaltending right now is good enough. Honestly, it makes me just want to puke. I don't particularly dislike Conklin or Markkanen, but they are backup keepers folks! It's not even like they are Manny Legace or Martin Gerber or Mathieu Garon either - they arent even top-end backups! Sure they might be okay next year, but it's the same BS every year: goaltending question marks. Can we, for once, have a goaltender on the Oilers who we can all trust will play some decent hockey? Don't give me that 'Oh well 3 years ago Salo was okay'. That's still two years that Lowe sat on his hands and did diddly to get an experienced #1, or at least a guy who you might put two-and-two together and think he has starting potential next year like a Garon or a Gerber. Perhaps the most annoying thing about this whole mess is that the Flames picked up Kipper for a song, Garon was had for as I said a 3rd (in a round-about way), and guys like Kevin Weekes are on the trading block and Lowe didn't even blink.
Mizral, I hope to god you shut the hell up about goaltending if the Conkanen tandem plays well and gives the team a chance to do something decent...

Though I doubt it, you'll probably just moan that they could have won 2 or 3 more games.

I'm not sure what you saw last year from these two guys that makes you think they won't get the 3-4 more wins it would have been necessary to get the team into the playoffs.

I mean you sure as hell talk alot of crap when you make a good guess, or when you blast someone using your chrystal ball of hind-sight, but do you have the parts to give credit where it's due if you are blatantly wrong?

I doubt it, at least not in the amount or tone you do when you are right.

Quote:
Lastly, about the prospects. You know what? George McPhee has really improved the Caps prospect pool. So has Craig Patrick. So has Darcy Regeir and Bob Pulford. Slipping out of the playoffs and drafting higher.. or trading away your best players for picks and drafting more .. to me, doesn't mean a lot. Sure, Lowe has better prospects. He's also picking way higher and way more than Slats used to. Knock Slats all you want, but I still see some good draft picks still kicking around (Alexei Semenov, some of you still really like Jani Rita, and Shawn Horcoff come to mind. Lowe has 'drafted well' because we haven't had enough time to see what picks have worked out. So far as I see, Alexei Mikhnov looks even worse than Rita does thus far, and Jesse Niinimaki is currently going into his third year in Europe. Very few European prospects after their 2nd year in Europe pan out. Not saying they are busts, but give it a year or two and they very well could be, and all of a sudden Lowe's drafting record is a lot worse than it is today. Then again, it could go the other way too, but personally I am not all that impressed with the prospects considering A) how he's gotten many of these picks, and B) In many cases, who he picks.
Ummm... Lowe has had an average pick of what, 16th overall? Slats from 1991-1997 had his lowest pick at 13th overall. He had 5 top 10 picks and drafted a whopping 2 solid NHLers, Arnott and Smyth.

Frankly, until a little more time passes, we aren't going to know for sure. Chances are, if there was an NHL season, Mikhnov would be hear. If he hadn't broken his shoulder, Niinimaki wouldn't be spending his 3rd season in Finland. We'll see how these guys turn out, especially considering Mikhnov had what amounts to an excellent season on a bad team, in a very defensive league which is either the 2nd or 3rd best hockey league in the world.

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Old
08-03-2004, 08:20 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Lowetide, your first post in this thread was a good one. But why it should take 6 pages to bring up the #1 cheif need of the Oilers is beyond me:

Goaltending
.
Thats YOUR perceived need for the Oilers. Not ours. And quit degrading our goalies by calling them 'late 20's backups' when Ty has already won more international acclaim than Cloutier.

I hate to break to ya, but Cloutier SUCKS. Why Nonis caved in and signed him to lead the Canucks to a good regular season but another first-round choke is beyond me.

Sorry for being blunt, but I'm really tired of other fans telling us our goaltending stinks when they a)likely don't know what they're talking about or b)just don't know what they're talking about. Most Oilers fans are FINE with our goalies.

I repeat - WE.ARE.HAPPY.WITH.TY.&.JUSSI!!

Quote:
who have yet to prove they belong in the show as a starter.
Just like every other goalie had to 'prove themselves' as a starter. How insightful...

Quote:
In fact, the only seperation I see between the Oilers and, say, the Blues and the Preds, at this point is goaltending. The Oilers are a better team or close to it with either club, but Osgood (say what you want, but he's an experienced starter) and Vokoun (a real underrated keeper) are light years ahead of Conks or Markkanen. Why has Lowe continued to do nothing about this?
It's not a number 1 priority right now. The Oilers - unless the netminder absolutely stinks with a below .900SV% - are not dependant on goaltending to win.

And didn't you recently say you felt the Oilers were no better than the Blackhawks?

I would say the difference between the Oilers and Blue/Preds is TWO POINTS.

Quote:
The Conklin signing indicates that he believes the goaltending right now is good enough. Honestly, it makes me just want to puke. I don't particularly dislike Conklin or Markkanen, but they are backup keepers folks!
WE THINK IT'S GOOD ENOUGH TOO!!! Honestly...

Quote:
Don't give me that 'Oh well 3 years ago Salo was okay'. That's still two years that Lowe sat on his hands and did diddly to get an experienced #1
Because you never have anything to counter it with? 'Don't give me any logic' you should have said, Salo was one of the top 10 goalies WHEN HE WAS SIGNED. Get it yet?

Quote:
Perhaps the most annoying thing about this whole mess is that the Flames picked up Kipper for a song, Garon was had for as I said a 3rd (in a round-about way), and guys like Kevin Weekes are on the trading block and Lowe didn't even blink.
Hindsight doesn't win you arguments. Facts do. As in, we don't feel it's appropriate for Lowe to make a gamble and pick up some unproven netminder - like Calgary did with Kiprusoff (it was a MIRACLE he panned out as goodas he did) - when we already have two capable goalies we know are good.

Quote:
Lowe has better prospects. He's also picking way higher and way more than Slats used to.
Wrong AGAIN.

SATHER:

1993
7 C Jason Arnott
16 D Nick Stajduhar

1994
4 C Jason Bonsignore
6 L Ryan Smyth

1995
6 L Steve Kelly

1996
6 C Boyd Devereaux
19 D Matthieu Descoteaux

1997
14 R Michel Riesen

1998
13 R Michael Henrich

LOWE:

1999
13 L Jani Rita

2000
17 Alexei Mikhnov

2001
13 L Ales Hemsky

2002
15 C Jesse Niinimaki

2003
22 C Marc-Antoine Pouliot

2004
14 G Devan Dubnyk
25 C Rob Schremp

Hmmm....thats funny....where are all these top ten draft picks you claim Lowe supposedly made - since you said Lowe drafted higher picks than Sather.

I see 7 picks from the Lowe-era - all between 13-25, and 4 from 1993-98 in the top ten. Interesting...

And is the amount of prospects (deepening our talent pool to the point where its one of the best in the NHL) supposed to prove something is amiss reguarding Lowes ability as a GM?



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08-03-2004, 08:39 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Lowe has better prospects. He's also picking way higher and way more than Slats used to.
This is such a great board. I was wondering when this little point would be so deftly refuted with facts. It came so quickly. Kudos.

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08-03-2004, 10:11 PM
  #89
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ahhhhh, the inevitable "I love the oilers but it is my opinion that they would be lucky to make the playoffs in the ECHL" post by Mizral. Can any person be so wrong so many times and yet think so highly of themselves?

My only concern with your post is that you SHOULD be an expert on a good team with a bad goalie. However, you are wrong about Conkanen. They are NHL average right now and the Oiler brass think very highly of Ty. They think he can be a good starter. As always, this is a risk but, unlike us, NHL General Managers have to stick their neck out every time they make a decision.

BTW, did the Vancouver City Council ever finally agree on a parade route for the Canucks?

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08-03-2004, 10:21 PM
  #90
Mizral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
This is such a great board. I was wondering when this little point would be so deftly refuted with facts. It came so quickly. Kudos.
You do know that teams have more than one pick a year, yes?

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08-03-2004, 10:23 PM
  #91
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I hope this won't bore everyone, but I did want to touch base on the goaltending versus center situation.

imo there's a huge difference between the two situations, and here's my reasoning. When Salo was signed to that big contract he had played some pretty darn good hockey, and in the context of his importance to the team I don't think it was an outrageous deal at that time. It certainly didn't turn out that way, but it looked good at the time.

I don't know what happened to Tommy Salo, and it is certainly none of my business. However, I've watched alot of sports in my day and when a guy his age goes south without a major injury or being dealt to a place where he isnt comfortable (like NYC. Players in every sport either love it or go Ed Whitson) it's really unusual. I mean one in a 100.

So those are Lowe's odds. Even a year ago after playing poorly and letting in an awful goal in game 6 against Dallas 27 second seconds in (or some such) Lowe had to look at it and say well maybe we can make this work. Because he didn't have a knee injury or an eye injury and his arm didn't fall off. He just stopped playing very well, and if it was the goofy Olympic goal then he should have been long over that by fall 2003.

So I think Lowe just said well hell we'll roll the dice and see what happens. Maybe he even tried to deal Salo but then felt the return wasn't enough and dealt Markkanen instead. I have no idea. But I don't think it's a bad bet. Tommy had done some good things and even though it turned out poorly I don't think very many Oiler fans have any kind of ill will towards him. He WAS a good goalie, and he lost it.

He's Steve Blass 30 years later. He couldn't find home plate.

Now, to center ice. When Marchant left, it meant that the Oilers were down one guy in the middle, and a pretty darn good one at that. Then came the Comrie fiasco and they had to know by this time last summer that things weren't going very bloody well.

Lowe's solutions were, in order:

1. Signing Horcoff and Reasoner to multi year contracts on July 31, 2003.
2. Trying Ryan Smyth at center.
3. Taking a long look at Peter Sarno (last cut at camp, Oct. 7)
4. Breaking camp with Ryan Smyth, Mike York, Horcoff, Reasoner and Stoll in the center rotation (correct me if I'm wrong). Out from last spring are Comrie and Marchant, in are an out of position Smyth and a solid rookie in Stoll.

Now, up until this instant there are some real worries but a top 4 of York, Reasoner, Horcoff and Stoll isn't terrible. If Smyth works out then you're cooking with petrol.

November 3, Stoll has tonsil trouble, callup Sarno.
November 8, Reasoner has his accident in Toronto.
November 10, Stoll is activated.
November 12, Reasoner on ir.

Anyone worried yet? Now, we have York, Horcoff, Stoll and Sarno with Smyth back on the wing (I don't remember exactly when he moved back but I believe it was by mid-November at the latest).

November 17, Oilers sign Adam Oates. I loved it, think most people did too.
November 26, Oilers send down Sarno.
November 28, Oates is activated.

Now it's Oates, York, Horcoff and Stoll. Am I right? Looks good if Oates can help.

December 16, Oilers trade Comrie. They don't get any help at center despite a very poor start by Oates.

January 18, they announce Marty Reasoner will have surgery and be out a minumum of 7-10 days. Quick in and out right?

January 28, Mike York's freak injury.

January 28, Mike Bishai is recalled.


The Edmonton Oilers now boast Adam Oates, Shawn Horcoff, Jarrett Stoll and Mike Bishai at center ice.

March 3, Nedved deal.


Somewhere in there Kevin Lowe needed to make a deal. When your 4 center men include a 40+ slow poke who's trying to get into shape after retiring the previous summer, two rookies and Horcoff, you're not too far from shaking hands with the 74-75 Washington Capitals.

Adam Oates couldn't play. That wasn't Lowe's fault, but the Oilers COULD have made the playoffs even with Tommy Salo.

But not with the centermen who laced up in the heart of the season. Not then, not ever.

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08-03-2004, 10:34 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
lowetide,

I didn't so much mean the first round actually, I was going on all those 2nd round picks in particular. It seems as of late Lowe has at least two high 2nd round picks, whereas Slats didn't seem to have nearly as much.

I'm sure if we all averaged it out, Lowe is picking higher than Slat's last couple of years.
Sathers Tenure

1993

7 C Jason Arnott
16 D Nick Stajduhar
33 R David Vyborny
59 L Kevin Paden
60 L Alexander Kerch
111 L Miroslav Satan
163 D Alex Zhurik
189 Martin Bakula
215 D Brad Norton
241 Oleg Maltsev
267 D Ilya Byakin

Thats 11 picks, 5 in the top 60


1994
4 C Jason Bonsignore
6 L Ryan Smyth
32 L Mike Watt
53 D Corey Neilson
60 D Brad Symes
79 R Adam Copeland
95 R Jussi Tarvainen
110 L Jon Gaskins
136 C Terry Marchant
160 D Curtis Sheptak
162 Dimitrius Sulba
179 G Chris Wickenheiser
185 D Rob Guinn
188 D Jason Reid
214 G Jeremy Jablonski
266 D Ladislav Benysek

Thats 16, 5 in the top 60

1995
6 L Steve Kelly
31 L Georges Laraque
57 D Lukas Zib
83 G Mike Minard
109 D Jan Snopek
161 C Martin Cerven
187 D Stephen Douglas
213 Jiri Antonin

Thats 8 picks, 3 in the top 60

1996
6 C Boyd Devereaux
19 D Matthieu Descoteaux
32 D Chris Hajt
59 D Tom Poti
114 R Brian Urick
141 R Bryan Randall
168 R David Bernier
170 R Brandon Lafrance
195 L Fernando Pisani
221 G John Hultberg

Thats 10 Picks, 4 in the top 60

1997
14 R Michel Riesen
41 G Patrick Dovigi
68 D Sergei Yerkovich
94 D Jonas Elofsson
121 L Jason Chimera
141 C Peter Sarno
176 D Kevin Bolibruck
187 C Chad Hinz
205 Chris Kerr
231 G Alexandre Fomitchev

Thats 10, 2 in the top 60

1998
13 R Michael Henrich
67 D Alex Henry
99 C Shawn Horcoff
113 G Kristian Antila
128 D Paul Elliott
144 F Oleg Smirnov
159 D Trevor Ettinger
186 G Mike Morrison
213 Christian Lefebvre
241 R Maxim Spiridonov

And thats 10 with only in 1 in the top 60

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lowes Tenure

1999
13 L Jani Rita
36 D Alexei Semenov
41 L Tony Salmelainen
81 G Adam Hauser
91 C Mike Comrie
139 D Jonathan Fauteux
171 F Chris Legg
199 D Christian Chartier
256 L Tomas Grosch

Thats 9, 3 in the top 60

2000
17 Alexei Mikhnov
35 C Brad Winchester
83 D Alexander Lyubimov
113 C Lou Dickenson
152 D Paul Flache
184 R Shaun Norrie
211 W Joe Cullen
215 C Matthew Lombardi
247 Jason Platt
274 F Evgeny Muratov

Thats 10, 2 in the top 60

2001
13 L Ales Hemsky
43 L Doug Lynch
52 Ed Caron
84 D Kenny Smith
133 G Jussi Markkanen
154 Jake Brenk
185 Mikael Svensk
215 L Dan Baum
248 D Kari Haakana
272 D Ales Pisa
278 L Shay Stephenson

Thats 11, 4 in the top 60

2002
15 C Jesse Niinimaki
31 G Jeff Deslauriers
36 R Jarret Stoll
44 Matt Greene
79 Brock Radunske
106 Ivan Koltsov
111 C Jonas Almtorp
123 C Robin Kovar
148 G Glenn Fisher
181 D Mikko Luoma
205 L Jean-Francois Dufort
211 Patrick Murphy
244 Dwight Helminen
245 F Tomas Micka
274 C Fredrik Johansson

Thats 15, 4 in the top 60

2003
22 C Marc-Antoine Pouliot
51 R Colin McDonald
68 L Jean-Francois Jacques
72 Mishail Joukov
94 R Zach Stortini
147 Kalle Olsson
154 David Rohlfs
184 Dragan Umicevic
214 C Kyle Brodziak
215 D Mathieu Roy
248 Josef Hrabal
278 R Troy Bodie

Thats 12, 2 in the top 60

2004
14 G Devan Dubnyk
25 C Rob Schremp
44 D Roman Tesliuk
57 L Geoff Paukovich
112 L Liam Reddox
146 D Bryan Young
177 D Max Gordichuk
208 R Stephane Goulet
242 C Tyler Spurgeon
274 G Bjorn Bjurling

And thats 10, 3 in the top 10

So thats 65/20 for Sather and 67/18 for Lowe, hardly enough to back up the point you were attempting to make.

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08-03-2004, 10:37 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
LOL. On another note: Are you quoting like that to make it more difficult for me to respond? It's alright - it's just a little more difficult than just using the quote button.
LOL. No not at all, but when its a post where I'm responding to different parts, I think its easier to do it that way, sorry that I caused ya trouble

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08-03-2004, 10:37 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
You do know that teams have more than one pick a year, yes?
And? How does that correspond to validate your point?

You do realize that Sather has picked at a higher draft number than Lowe, yes? Last time I checked an average draft number of 13 for Sather is higher than about 16-17 for Lowe. You were wrong. At least own up to the fact, Mizral.

EDIT: At the very least... before doling out grand generalizations reclarify your statement. Personally, I'd say that first round picks generally carry more weight than a second rounder. How do you exactly account for that?


Last edited by momentai: 08-03-2004 at 10:42 PM.
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08-03-2004, 10:41 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Very few European prospects after their 2nd year in Europe pan out. Not saying they are busts, but give it a year or two and they very well could be, and all of a sudden Lowe's drafting record is a lot worse than it is today. Then again, it could go the other way too, but personally I am not all that impressed with the prospects considering A) how he's gotten many of these picks, and B) In many cases, who he picks.

So your faulting Lowe on something that "Very well could be" eh?

Somehow I doubt the validity of this point.

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08-03-2004, 10:43 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis
LOL. No not at all, but when its a post where I'm responding to different parts, I think its easier to do it that way, sorry that I caused ya trouble
No. No trouble. It's just when I press quote... I get nothing on the screen. It's just a lot of copy and paste.

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08-03-2004, 10:43 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hootchie Cootchie
Thats YOUR perceived need for the Oilers. Not ours. And quit degrading our goalies by calling them 'late 20's backups' when Ty has already won more international acclaim than Cloutier.

I hate to break to ya, but Cloutier SUCKS. Why Nonis caved in and signed him to lead the Canucks to a good regular season but another first-round choke is beyond me.

Sorry for being blunt, but I'm really tired of other fans telling us our goaltending stinks when they a)likely don't know what they're talking about or b)just don't know what they're talking about. Most Oilers fans are FINE with our goalies.
Pre-package that and send it to last year. I heard this one a lot back then. Matts was I believe the only one here aside from myself who questioned Salo. You're right though, we don't know what we're talking about.

Quote:
Just like every other goalie had to 'prove themselves' as a starter. How insightful...
Did you read my post? Any guy could be a starter someday. I'm sure that's the line that Yotes management fed their fans last year with Boucher, and will next year as well. Conklin is a good example of where someone being an Oiler makes a player that much better on this board. What seperates Conklin from, say, Reinhart Divis? More games played in the NHL, but all in all similar players. Great international experience, time as a backup in the NHL, has yet to solidify his game, has had poor outings in big games.

I am not saying Conklin is going to for sure be a flop, all I'm saying is that there are not many keepers in his situations that suddenly turn starter at 28 years old. It could happen, but all I'm saying is there is a lot of uncertainty, just like last year.

Quote:
It's not a number 1 priority right now. The Oilers - unless the netminder absolutely stinks with a below .900SV% - are not dependant on goaltending to win.

And didn't you recently say you felt the Oilers were no better than the Blackhawks?

I would say the difference between the Oilers and Blue/Preds is TWO POINTS.
Yeah, sure, last year. Unfortunatly the Preds have been getting a lot better, the Blues underacheived (though I think they are going to continue in that direction next year). Have the Oilers improved from this time in March? I personally don't think so.

Quote:
Because you never have anything to counter it with? 'Don't give me any logic' you should have said, Salo was one of the top 10 goalies WHEN HE WAS SIGNED. Get it yet?
Holik was a top checker and one of the biggest playoff difference makers in the NHL when he signed. Yashin was one of the top centremen in the league when he signed. Sorry, that arguement doesn't wash for me. As a GM, you have to learn to project how a player is going to play. Lowe didn't judge as well as others in Salo. There were a great many Salo detractors back then, too, you know.

[QUOTE[
Hindsight doesn't win you arguments. Facts do. As in, we don't feel it's appropriate for Lowe to make a gamble and pick up some unproven netminder - like Calgary did with Kiprusoff (it was a MIRACLE he panned out as goodas he did) - when we already have two capable goalies we know are good.
[/QUOTE]

Miracle, eh? Boy, what do you think GM's do, just guess all day?

Quote:
Wrong AGAIN.

SATHER:

1993
7 C Jason Arnott
16 D Nick Stajduhar

1994
4 C Jason Bonsignore
6 L Ryan Smyth

1995
6 L Steve Kelly

1996
6 C Boyd Devereaux
19 D Matthieu Descoteaux

1997
14 R Michel Riesen

1998
13 R Michael Henrich

LOWE:

1999
13 L Jani Rita

2000
17 Alexei Mikhnov

2001
13 L Ales Hemsky

2002
15 C Jesse Niinimaki

2003
22 C Marc-Antoine Pouliot

2004
14 G Devan Dubnyk
25 C Rob Schremp

Hmmm....thats funny....where are all these top ten draft picks you claim Lowe supposedly made - since you said Lowe drafted higher picks than Sather.

I see 7 picks from the Lowe-era - all between 13-25, and 4 from 1993-98 in the top ten. Interesting...

And is the amount of prospects (deepening our talent pool to the point where its one of the best in the NHL) supposed to prove something is amiss reguarding Lowes ability as a GM?

Waste a lot of breath for nothing. There are 9 picks usually in an NHL draft, not one.

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08-03-2004, 10:45 PM
  #98
momentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
lowetide,

I didn't so much mean the first round actually, I was going on all those 2nd round picks in particular. It seems as of late Lowe has at least two high 2nd round picks, whereas Slats didn't seem to have nearly as much.
By doing that you assume an equal probability of drafting a player at each position which is certainly not true. It is more than proven fact that a higher draft position yields a more probably NHL player. That is not taken into account in regards to your averaging.

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08-03-2004, 10:46 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
And? How does that correspond to validate your point?

You do realize that Sather has picked at a higher draft number than Lowe, yes? Last time I checked an average draft number of 13 for Sather is higher than about 16-17 for Lowe. You were wrong. At least own up to the fact, Mizral.

EDIT: At the very least... before doling out grand generalizations reclarify your statement. Personally, I'd say that first round picks generally carry more weight than a second rounder. How do you exactly account for that?
I wasn't wrong at all. Just because a couple of you seem to think you only make picks in the first round and seem to ignore all the other picks isn't my fault. I for darn sure meant more than just the one pick. Lowe has stocked up on high seconds it seems every year or every other year.

I would say that's true, however I would rather have a low 1st round pick and three 2nd round picks, two very very high, than a #9 overall pick or what have you.

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08-03-2004, 10:54 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis
Sathers Tenure

1993

7 C Jason Arnott
16 D Nick Stajduhar
33 R David Vyborny
59 L Kevin Paden
60 L Alexander Kerch
111 L Miroslav Satan
163 D Alex Zhurik
189 Martin Bakula
215 D Brad Norton
241 Oleg Maltsev
267 D Ilya Byakin

Thats 11 picks, 5 in the top 60


1994
4 C Jason Bonsignore
6 L Ryan Smyth
32 L Mike Watt
53 D Corey Neilson
60 D Brad Symes
79 R Adam Copeland
95 R Jussi Tarvainen
110 L Jon Gaskins
136 C Terry Marchant
160 D Curtis Sheptak
162 Dimitrius Sulba
179 G Chris Wickenheiser
185 D Rob Guinn
188 D Jason Reid
214 G Jeremy Jablonski
266 D Ladislav Benysek

Thats 16, 5 in the top 60

1995
6 L Steve Kelly
31 L Georges Laraque
57 D Lukas Zib
83 G Mike Minard
109 D Jan Snopek
161 C Martin Cerven
187 D Stephen Douglas
213 Jiri Antonin

Thats 8 picks, 3 in the top 60

1996
6 C Boyd Devereaux
19 D Matthieu Descoteaux
32 D Chris Hajt
59 D Tom Poti
114 R Brian Urick
141 R Bryan Randall
168 R David Bernier
170 R Brandon Lafrance
195 L Fernando Pisani
221 G John Hultberg

Thats 10 Picks, 4 in the top 60

1997
14 R Michel Riesen
41 G Patrick Dovigi
68 D Sergei Yerkovich
94 D Jonas Elofsson
121 L Jason Chimera
141 C Peter Sarno
176 D Kevin Bolibruck
187 C Chad Hinz
205 Chris Kerr
231 G Alexandre Fomitchev

Thats 10, 2 in the top 60

1998
13 R Michael Henrich
67 D Alex Henry
99 C Shawn Horcoff
113 G Kristian Antila
128 D Paul Elliott
144 F Oleg Smirnov
159 D Trevor Ettinger
186 G Mike Morrison
213 Christian Lefebvre
241 R Maxim Spiridonov

And thats 10 with only in 1 in the top 60

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lowes Tenure

1999
13 L Jani Rita
36 D Alexei Semenov
41 L Tony Salmelainen
81 G Adam Hauser
91 C Mike Comrie
139 D Jonathan Fauteux
171 F Chris Legg
199 D Christian Chartier
256 L Tomas Grosch

Thats 9, 3 in the top 60


2000
17 Alexei Mikhnov
35 C Brad Winchester
83 D Alexander Lyubimov
113 C Lou Dickenson
152 D Paul Flache
184 R Shaun Norrie
211 W Joe Cullen
215 C Matthew Lombardi
247 Jason Platt
274 F Evgeny Muratov

Thats 10, 2 in the top 60

2001
13 L Ales Hemsky
43 L Doug Lynch
52 Ed Caron
84 D Kenny Smith
133 G Jussi Markkanen
154 Jake Brenk
185 Mikael Svensk
215 L Dan Baum
248 D Kari Haakana
272 D Ales Pisa
278 L Shay Stephenson

Thats 11, 4 in the top 60

2002
15 C Jesse Niinimaki
31 G Jeff Deslauriers
36 R Jarret Stoll
44 Matt Greene
79 Brock Radunske
106 Ivan Koltsov
111 C Jonas Almtorp
123 C Robin Kovar
148 G Glenn Fisher
181 D Mikko Luoma
205 L Jean-Francois Dufort
211 Patrick Murphy
244 Dwight Helminen
245 F Tomas Micka
274 C Fredrik Johansson

Thats 15, 4 in the top 60

2003
22 C Marc-Antoine Pouliot
51 R Colin McDonald
68 L Jean-Francois Jacques
72 Mishail Joukov
94 R Zach Stortini
147 Kalle Olsson
154 David Rohlfs
184 Dragan Umicevic
214 C Kyle Brodziak
215 D Mathieu Roy
248 Josef Hrabal
278 R Troy Bodie

Thats 12, 2 in the top 60

2004
14 G Devan Dubnyk
25 C Rob Schremp
44 D Roman Tesliuk
57 L Geoff Paukovich
112 L Liam Reddox
146 D Bryan Young
177 D Max Gordichuk
208 R Stephane Goulet
242 C Tyler Spurgeon
274 G Bjorn Bjurling

And thats 10, 3 in the top 10

So thats 65/20 for Sather and 67/18 for Lowe, hardly enough to back up the point you were attempting to make.
Lowe didn't take over as GM until 2000. 1999 was Slats last draft with the Oilers.

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