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Sergei Kostitsyn on the Habs - Russian

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07-19-2011, 08:32 PM
  #101
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Do you really think Sergei would have gotten the chance to play 17-18M and PP in Montreal? Do you think Sergei would hit the 50 pts mark in Montreal? Do you think Sergei could score 23 goals on the third line in Montreal? All that under Martin who obviously didn't like the him?

Sergei obviously had no future with the Habs and under Martin. And we all know Sergei is talented, READY for the NHL. So yeah, lets blame the kid for thinking about his future. Its not about money, he took minimum salary just to play in an NHL team and prove what he's capable of. All he wanted was an opportunity.
why's that you think...



seriously, seeing you guys trying to find every possible excuse there is... no wonder some of them have huge egos...

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07-19-2011, 08:41 PM
  #102
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A prime example is not based on assumptions.

Lats problem was training and still is training. If you can find a clip from last summer on RDS where he's with a personal trainer getting ready for the 10-11 season, you'll know what I mean. His level of dedication was too low and often came into question, from his own words, and he realized that. He was training more last summer, and still, 1-2 months after that, it gets out that he was not in good shape when he came into Wild camp... surprise surprise...

I love debating.


To counter your point, had the organization sent him the farm to get all of his ducks in a row prior to playing in the NHL, including his fitness regime,that IMO is considered part of his developement.

Where I truly believe the Habs fell short, was giving this young man a sense of entitlement on the team because he was francophone as opposed to developing a pro skill, fitness level & work ethic, which in turn would have benefited both he & the team.

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07-19-2011, 08:45 PM
  #103
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I think it was Whitesnake who posted that to play for JM you already need to have a fire in you . I agreed with that and would go further, you also have to be a good player who is low on making mistakes. Problem is, young guys usually make mistakes and not all young players have a high maturity level. I think its great to have a team full of high character players and responsble ones also, but if the bar is set too high you will lose players who couldve helped the team if not now, in a couple of years. Take OByrne, I dont know why we traded this guy because he is the type of D-man we lack, big and developing a physical game. He wasnt played here but in Colorado he is playing top 3 minutes ( yes, its Colorado but Im sure hed be fine for the top 6-7 here ). In the TSN team write-up it said hes upped his game after the coaching staff showed confidence in him. Remember MaxPac in the off-season saying he didnt want to play in Montreal because hed be bottom 6 and he needed top 6 minutes to develop ? He also said when Carb was coach he could make mistakes but with JM he was essentially on pins and needless because if he made a mistake he was benched. It scares the hell out of me that if MaxPac didnt have such great internal toughness that we could have seen him go down the toilet because of JM and his , to me, hardass, doesnt know how to handle and develop young guys flaw. Id rather lose JM than players who may need a little patience and stroking.

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07-19-2011, 08:51 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Thing is, you're talking about the season that he missed because of his numerous injuries. Injuries that had nothing to do with his shape but with something he was dragging. Sports hernia aren't related to bad shape. Yet, he had some problems training because of those injuries he thought would go away. And evidently, it didn't and not only that, he missed a whole year. And not because he was out of shape.

So many things that circulated falsely for Lats. Like the time people were whining because he didn't go to a skating session in Trois-Rivières or something....which was also put down later when Latendresse admitted he and Lapierre when to a skating camp with Paul Lawson in the summer and didn't have to go to that other camp people was talking about....

Yet, people look at this face and say he is in bad shape. Same guy who was in his last years with the Habs, one of the best players in preseason. Was eating the prospects alive in his first seasons...and didn't look too badly with the vets as well. Clearly, he was probably not the best in physical condition and it was his weakness....but didn't do too badly. Then it comes down to improving with maturity.

The one thing that has always stood out to me about Gui, was I never thought he was the same after that hit from behind by Gui on the vet player in Tampa Bay, whose name eludes me right now. He always seemed either hold up on the huge hit he could make or roll off of his opponent. I know even myself at the time was very frustrated by those very plays, but now some three or four years since, I realize that Gui was playing the game in the fashion everyone is screaming for players to play today, a responsible game & with respect for your opponent.

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07-19-2011, 08:53 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
I think it was Whitesnake who posted that to play for JM you already need to have a fire in you . I agreed with that and would go further, you also have to be a good player who is low on making mistakes. Problem is, young guys usually make mistakes and not all young players have a high maturity level. I think its great to have a team full of high character players and responsble ones also, but if the bar is set too high you will lose players who couldve helped the team if not now, in a couple of years. Take OByrne, I dont know why we traded this guy because he is the type of D-man we lack, big and developing a physical game. He wasnt played here but in Colorado he is playing top 3 minutes ( yes, its Colorado but Im sure hed be fine for the top 6-7 here ). In the TSN team write-up it said hes upped his game after the coaching staff showed confidence in him. Remember MaxPac in the off-season saying he didnt want to play in Montreal because hed be bottom 6 and he needed top 6 minutes to develop ? He also said when Carb was coach he could make mistakes but with JM he was essentially on pins and needless because if he made a mistake he was benched. It scares the hell out of me that if MaxPac didnt have such great internal toughness that we could have seen him go down the toilet because of JM and his , to me, hardass, doesnt know how to handle and develop young guys flaw. Id rather lose JM than players who may need a little patience and stroking.


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07-19-2011, 08:56 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
why's that you think...



seriously, seeing you guys trying to find every possible excuse there is... no wonder some of them have huge egos...
And you're just in denial.

I don't know about you but I remember the camp of 09-10 quite well. Despite coming back from surgery, SK did good in the preseason games, except for his first game. He certainly plays as well, if not better than Latendresse, Lapierre, Chipchura, Pacioretty, Stewart etc... but for some reason, JM sent him to the Bulldogs.

Sergei went to AHL and Boucher only had good words for him.

He then came back with the Habs because we had so many injuries, playing on the third line. I remember on this board, we were wondering why Sergei did not play on the PP, while a guy like Darche had plenty.

It was pretty obvious that Martin didn't like Sergei. You're blind if you can't see that.

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07-19-2011, 10:56 PM
  #107
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And you're just in denial.

I don't know about you but I remember the camp of 09-10 quite well. Despite coming back from surgery, SK did good in the preseason games, except for his first game. He certainly plays as well, if not better than Latendresse, Lapierre, Chipchura, Pacioretty, Stewart etc... but for some reason, JM sent him to the Bulldogs.

Sergei went to AHL and Boucher only had good words for him.

He then came back with the Habs because we had so many injuries, playing on the third line. I remember on this board, we were wondering why Sergei did not play on the PP, while a guy like Darche had plenty.

It was pretty obvious that Martin didn't like Sergei
. You're blind if you can't see that.
Or maybe, maybe... JM wanted to see more of him, like make amend, not just play well or do his job, but show he learned something before his call-up...

I know it's the new thing - the new trend, when something's wrong it's everybody's fault but your own, when you're being punished you dont have to work (extra) hard to gain your job back, the world owe it to you even though you've accomplished nothing at work...

well, guess JM didnt felt like he owed anything to S.K...

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07-19-2011, 10:59 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
I think it was Whitesnake who posted that to play for JM you already need to have a fire in you . I agreed with that and would go further, you also have to be a good player who is low on making mistakes. Problem is, young guys usually make mistakes and not all young players have a high maturity level. I think its great to have a team full of high character players and responsble ones also, but if the bar is set too high you will lose players who couldve helped the team if not now, in a couple of years. Take OByrne, I dont know why we traded this guy because he is the type of D-man we lack, big and developing a physical game. He wasnt played here but in Colorado he is playing top 3 minutes ( yes, its Colorado but Im sure hed be fine for the top 6-7 here ). In the TSN team write-up it said hes upped his game after the coaching staff showed confidence in him. Remember MaxPac in the off-season saying he didnt want to play in Montreal because hed be bottom 6 and he needed top 6 minutes to develop ? He also said when Carb was coach he could make mistakes but with JM he was essentially on pins and needless because if he made a mistake he was benched. It scares the hell out of me that if MaxPac didnt have such great internal toughness that we could have seen him go down the toilet because of JM and his , to me, hardass, doesnt know how to handle and develop young guys flaw. Id rather lose JM than players who may need a little patience and stroking.
then, naming ONE (asked 3 from another poster and still waiting, guess it's too hard) player that was screwed by JM and his terrible methods...

I mean, the guy coached in the NHL for over 10 years, finding ONE shouldnt be that hard, right ?

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07-19-2011, 11:14 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Or maybe, maybe... JM wanted to see more of him, like make amend, not just play well or do his job, but show he learned something before his call-up...

I know it's the new thing - the new trend, when something's wrong it's everybody's fault but your own, when you're being punished you dont have to work (extra) hard to gain your job back, the world owe it to you even though you've accomplished nothing at work...

well, guess JM didnt felt like he owed anything to S.K...
Oh you're playing the poor victim card again?

I can do the same thing too.

I know its the new thing, the new trend that whatever the coach and organization do, it will always be the right decision. They can do no wrong. Blame the players, always. They shouldn't think about their future and career. Even if they feel being misused or have a future elsewhere, they have to obey the coach to please him even if you will lose money and time.

Was Sergei very immature and selfish under Hunter, Carbo, Boucher, Trotz? Don't think so.

Also, when you say being punished. Sergei was punished for what actually? For having surgery and started camp late but still manage to play as good or better than his teammates? So why was he sent down in the first place? That again, was triggering factor. Sergei was obviously NHL ready back then.. especially compared to who he was battling with.

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07-19-2011, 11:46 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
then, naming ONE (asked 3 from another poster and still waiting, guess it's too hard) player that was screwed by JM and his terrible methods...

I mean, the guy coached in the NHL for over 10 years, finding ONE shouldnt be that hard, right ?
actually, already 2 very young superstars just after JM took over

#1 defenseman P.K. Subban 22 years old
#1 Goalie Carey Price 23 years old

And also in the making: Lars Eller, Max Pacioretty, Ryan White (in his own way), Yannick Weber, David Desharnais

Its been a while since we havent had so many LEGIT young players pushing to become key elements in the success of our team.

Its been 16-17 years I have been following the canadiens now and I can tell you JM is the guy we need.

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07-19-2011, 11:48 PM
  #111
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Oh you're playing the poor victim card again?

I can do the same thing too.
I thought Sergei was the poor victim

seeing every one jumping on the "poor little kid, he didnt deserved all this" comments, the guy must have suffered a great deal

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Was Sergei very immature and selfish under Hunter, Carbo, Boucher, Trotz? Don't think so.

and your opinion is based on... ?

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07-19-2011, 11:50 PM
  #112
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actually, already 2 very young superstars just after JM took over

#1 defenseman P.K. Subban 22 years old
#1 Goalie Carey Price 23 years old

And also in the making: Lars Eller, Max Pacioretty, Ryan White (in his own way), Yannick Weber, David Desharnais

Its been a while since we havent had so many LEGIT young players pushing to become key elements in the success of our team.

Its been 16-17 years I have been following the canadiens now and I can tell you JM is the guy we need.
Yup, and none of the guys you mentionned have been screwed up by JM. they're still solid NHLers or rookies developping at a more than decent pace.

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07-20-2011, 12:27 AM
  #113
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I thought Sergei was the poor victim

seeing every one jumping on the "poor little kid, he didnt deserved all this" comments, the guy must have suffered a great deal




and your opinion is based on... ?
My opinion is based on how Sergei played for them and how they used him. Guy Boucher had no problem at all with Sergei. Trotz only had good words for Sergei. JM.. well he prefers Greg Stewart over Sergei in his line up.

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07-20-2011, 12:33 AM
  #114
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My opinion is based on how Sergei played for them and how they used him. Guy Boucher had no problem at all with Sergei. Trotz only had good words for Sergei. JM.. well he prefers Greg Stewart over Sergei in his line up.
that's a joke right ?

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07-20-2011, 12:40 AM
  #115
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Ugh Sergei again? Why must he be brought up in these parts. He's a diva, we need to have an official Sergei Kostitsyn thread that is also invisible.

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07-20-2011, 03:08 AM
  #116
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Andrei-Mikhail-Sergei

Habs literally drafted a legit 2nd line out of Belarus. Too bad things didn't out this way.
Whats most unfortunate is we traded away the two younger players who've since scored more points than the one we kept.

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07-20-2011, 04:12 AM
  #117
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they're still solid NHLers or rookies developping at a more than decent pace.
it's funny, but I bet if you ask Blues fans, Avs fans or Predator fans, they'd say the same thing about D'ago, O'Byrne & S.Kost...

wether you want to accept it or not, no coach "screws up" a young player beyond repair (actual physical or emotional abuse the possible exception, but even then they can still go on to have great careers), and that's not what i see most people saying about Martin.

if we can avoid the over-the-top exaggerations, then we can focus on wether or not Coach "A" is particularly suited to building up young players and getting the most out of them.

as I've suggested, I believe (and with I think some solid evidence) that Martin's track record and in-season/in-game roster management reflects an approach whereby young players have to be "almost beyond reproach" simply to get the same ice-time opportunities that veterans get "almost regardless of their level of perfromance"...

a double-standard that, while it may not affect the best/mentally strongest young players, is a surefire way to lose any young player who shows any signs of, quite common, immaturity.

you can't forget that, as extremmely talented athletes, many of these players have been treated as prima donna's from a young age. While it's in the the coach/organization's best interest to instill the right kind of character expectations in it's players, double-standards create an additional, and I'd argue, completely unnessecary barrier that is far more difficult to overcome for some.

20-25 is a period of great transition for all young men, why would any organization in it's right mind want to "write-off" anyone who isn't a perfect example of character or resiliency from day one.

look at Price...

Price showed some pretty serious maturity problems early on. had he NOT been Gainey's pet project, do you really think he'd still be with the team? Had his behavior and work ethic issues been met with as harsh a reaction (i.e Hamilton) as S.Kost, do you think he'd have lasted without lashing out?
I seriously doubt it... but he had the GM in his corner, he was a top-5 pick, and he showed enough flashes of brilliance that the team rightfully gave him time to come around.


how differently would things have turned out with Lats or S.Kost if, despite their shortcomings (attitude, conditioning, not unlike Price), they still got top-6 minutes, still got time on the pp, still had the GM in their corner when the fans/media got on them...

I venture that it is far more likely that, feeling that supported and believed in, they would have come around and given us the kind of quality level of performance they've since given the teams we traded them to (and personally, I think Lats might be the kind of player who never "gets it" and makes the most of his abilities... but S.Kost? his track record in junior, and now with Nashville, to me reflects a guy who got his head F***D with, didn't like it, pouted like a baby, and then quickly enough "figured it out" again and went back to doing what helped make him successful.
you don't play for the Hunter's and last very long, as a prima donna, and from what I recall, they spoke very highly of S.Kost's character while he was in London.

the best way to get someone who is acting out to smarten up, isn't by using carrot/stick methods, or by labelling them and giving up on them...

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07-20-2011, 05:01 AM
  #118
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if we can avoid the over-the-top exaggerations, then we can focus on wether or not Coach "A" is particularly suited to building up young players and getting the most out of them.
Well, thinking that our youngsters all did well despite the coach is also an exageration...

(wich you basically said in a previous post)


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07-20-2011, 06:46 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by XperHFB View Post
actually, already 2 very young superstars just after JM took over

#1 defenseman P.K. Subban 22 years old
#1 Goalie Carey Price 23 years old

And also in the making: Lars Eller, Max Pacioretty, Ryan White (in his own way), Yannick Weber, David Desharnais

Its been a while since we havent had so many LEGIT young players pushing to become key elements in the success of our team.

Its been 16-17 years I have been following the canadiens now and I can tell you JM is the guy we need.
While there are worst options out there, I still think there are much better options and one of them is a former captain by the name of Kirk Muller. I just have a feeling, from reading things and having met Muller on various occasions that he is smart, good with the young guys and would be great at developing them. I still think he should have been offered the AHL job last year.

As for Sergei, I am not surprised to see him say things like this, just always came off as a guy that felt entitled. He mentions Andrei and the way the Habs are supposedly treating him and his development but if Andrei felt that way why did he re-up this year at the same amount? It just sounds like a whole lot of sour grapes from Sergei.

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07-20-2011, 07:05 AM
  #120
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I love debating.


To counter your point, had the organization sent him the farm to get all of his ducks in a row prior to playing in the NHL, including his fitness regime,that IMO is considered part of his developement.

Where I truly believe the Habs fell short, was giving this young man a sense of entitlement on the team because he was francophone as opposed to developing a pro skill, fitness level & work ethic, which in turn would have benefited both he & the team.
Again something based on assumptions and not reality.

When Lats came into his 2nd camp (one year after being drafted), the Habs wanted him to stay in the Q until he could go into the AHL by the end of that season, but Lats and his agent refused and not only wanted a contract, but also wanted the assurance that he would play in Montreal from the start of the contract. He even threatened to not sign and go back to the draft if he didn't play IN Montreal from the start.

Selective memory won't put the blame on the Habs. Lats never had the dedication needed, and was also sent into a primadona role by his agent and Quebec media. Habs wanted to do what was right for Lats, Lats is the one who forced something else. Something that he probably regrets today.

That sense of entitlement you're talking about wasn't given by the team. It was first promoted in the media, and then Lats and his agent took advantage of this by forcing the Habs to keep him up instead of going to the Q and then AHL.



Like I said before, people always put the fault on the teacher nowadays, yet students are more and more difficult, think everything is owed to them.

I followed Lats enough to know full well that he dug his own grave in Montreal.

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07-20-2011, 07:31 AM
  #121
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Again something based on assumptions and not reality.

When Lats came into his 2nd camp (one year after being drafted), the Habs wanted him to stay in the Q until he could go into the AHL by the end of that season, but Lats and his agent refused and not only wanted a contract, but also wanted the assurance that he would play in Montreal from the start of the contract. He even threatened to not sign and go back to the draft if he didn't play IN Montreal from the start.

Selective memory won't put the blame on the Habs. Lats never had the dedication needed, and was also sent into a primadona role by his agent and Quebec media. Habs wanted to do what was right for Lats, Lats is the one who forced something else. Something that he probably regrets today.

That sense of entitlement you're talking about wasn't given by the team. It was first promoted in the media, and then Lats and his agent took advantage of this by forcing the Habs to keep him up instead of going to the Q and then AHL.



Like I said before, people always put the fault on the teacher nowadays, yet students are more and more difficult, think everything is owed to them.

I followed Lats enough to know full well that he dug his own grave in Montreal.
So many misconceptions about Latendresse ...

Latendresse scored 32 goals in his first two NHL seasons getting third line minutes and virtually no PP. He did this by scoring 16 goals, and then scoring 16 goals again, very consistent. In his third season, the debacle of 2008-09, he played at a 21 goal pace, and the Lapierre-Latendresse-Kostopoulos line was our best line for many nights. He had spectacular puck control, and was able to go up and down the boards. The following year he had 27 goals and 40 points over 78 games. He was 100% ready for the NHL style of play, he played at a high pace, and if you go look at the 2005 NHL draft selections he is one of the most successful players. He is 6th in goals scored despite 8th in games played. If he was as bad as he is made out to be, his 8th place ranking in games played would make him no higher than 20th for goals scored.

There would have been no benefit to leaving him in the Q for a year where he would have scored a zillion goals playing with one hand tied behind his back. 16 goals in the NHL with third line minutes == how many goals in the Q? I'm not interested, those performances should never be observed in junior leagues it's bad for development. In any case, the Habs needed the even strength scoring Latendresse excelled at, they were not going to get it from the Brian Smolinski type players Gainey preferred to play.

Latendresse, D'Agostini, O'Byrne, SK74 are players who have gone on to great sucecss elsewhere. Pouliot is going on to great success in Boston. I bet AK46 will do so in 14 months as well. Lapierre, a former 15 goal scorer who was elite for drawing penalties which we care about as a collection of PP specialists, was replaced by... Ryan White. Chipchura is the only recent ex-Hab who has not gone on to greater success elsewhere.

I don't blame Martin. I mostly blame Gainey. O'Byrne would be preferable to Spacek right now, and a line of Latendresse-Plekanec-Cammalleri would look great in our top-6. Instead, we're paying 4.5 million to an aging Cole to produce the same 20-25 goals that a prime-entering Latendresse would produce for 3 million.


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Old
07-20-2011, 07:40 AM
  #122
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And you're just in denial.

I don't know about you but I remember the camp of 09-10 quite well. Despite coming back from surgery, SK did good in the preseason games, except for his first game. He certainly plays as well, if not better than Latendresse, Lapierre, Chipchura, Pacioretty, Stewart etc... but for some reason, JM sent him to the Bulldogs.

Sergei went to AHL and Boucher only had good words for him.

He then came back with the Habs because we had so many injuries, playing on the third line. I remember on this board, we were wondering why Sergei did not play on the PP, while a guy like Darche had plenty.

It was pretty obvious that Martin didn't like Sergei. You're blind if you can't see that.
What did you expect Boucher to say? On the record coaches rarely have anything to say unless you are a Keenan or Tortorella.

It has nothing to do with JM liking or not liking SK, if JM hated anybody it was Latendresse, he had him in the doghouse from day 1. SK was sent to Hamilton primarily because he showed up to camp out of shape and had a couple of incidents on top of that and the front office had enough. SK doesn't have the skill level to play in the NHL with a poor work ethic and conditionning, he isn't Kovalchuk or Ovechkin. He needs to step it up in Nashville or end up in the doghouse there.

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07-20-2011, 07:45 AM
  #123
beowulf
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
So many misconceptions about Latendresse ...

Latendresse scored 32 goals in his first two NHL seasons getting third line minutes and virtually no PP. He did this by scoring 16 goals, and then scoring 16 goals again, very consistent. In his third season, the debacle of 2008-09, he played at a 21 goal pace, and the Lapierre-Latendresse-Kostopoulos line was our best line for many nights. He had spectacular puck control, and was able to go up and down the boards. The following year he had 27 goals and 40 points over 78 games. He was 100% ready for the NHL style of play, he played at a high pace, and if you go look at the 2005 NHL draft selections he is one of the most successful players. He is 6th in goals scored, 8th in games played, 22nd in assists, and 11th in points. In the points category he is ahead of T.J. Oshie, Jack Johnson, Marc Staal.

There would have been no benefit to leaving him in the Q for a year where he would have scored a zillion goals playing with one hand tied behind his back. 16 goals in the NHL with third line minutes == how many goals in the Q? I'm not interested, those performances should never be observed in junior leagues it's bad for development.

Latendresse, D'Agostini, O'Byrne, SK74 are players who have gone on to great sucecss elsewhere. Pouliot is going on to great success in Boston. I bet AK46 will do so in 14 months as well. Lapierre, a former 15 goal scorer who was elite for drawing penalties which we care about as a collection of PP specialists, was replaced by... Ryan White. Chipchura is the only recent ex-Hab who has not gone on to greater success elsewhere.

I don't blame Martin. I mostly blame Gainey. O'Byrne would be preferable to Spacek right now, and a line of Latendresse-Plekanec-Cammalleri would look great in our top-6. Instead, we're paying 4.5 million to an aging Cole to produce the same 20-25 goals that a prime-entering Latendresse would produce for 3 million.
Are you really comparing his point totals to two defensemen one of which is of the defensive variety? Your argument looses a ton of credibility right there.

Also how you can say those players of gone on to GREAT success is beyond me.

Tenderness has a good, not great, 55 games to end a season with the Wild. He still remains decent player who does not show the greatest of dedication and his own lack of being in shape likely contributed to his injury last season.

D'agostini produced 0 points in 7 games after his trade but did have a good season last year and time will tell if he keeps it up. Would he have developed the same way as a Hab? Who knows but I would not have minded him being still around. This being said his defensive game still is lacking.

O'byrne is another guy I would have loved to have seen stay but in the end he was the low man on the totem pole here because of age, experience and the Martin factor. He got big minutes on a weak Colorado team and he took advantage of it.

Sergei is, well, Sergei. The dude has an inflated head and close to the same level of entitlement as Tenderness. Yes he had a 23 goal, 50 point season but that is far from elite scoring. He could very well become the top end talent that many thought he would be here but all depends on if he lets her ego get in the way.

Again these guys have shows some small flashes of being very good players but none of them have been as good as you seem to be inferring.

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07-20-2011, 07:52 AM
  #124
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
So many misconceptions about Latendresse ...

Latendresse scored 32 goals in his first two NHL seasons getting third line minutes and virtually no PP. He did this by scoring 16 goals, and then scoring 16 goals again, very consistent. In his third season, the debacle of 2008-09, he played at a 21 goal pace, and the Lapierre-Latendresse-Kostopoulos line was our best line for many nights. He had spectacular puck control, and was able to go up and down the boards. The following year he had 27 goals and 40 points over 78 games. He was 100% ready for the NHL style of play, he played at a high pace, and if you go look at the 2005 NHL draft selections he is one of the most successful players. He is 6th in goals scored despite 8th in games played. If he was as bad as he is made out to be, his 8th place ranking in games played would make him no higher than 20th for goals scored.

There would have been no benefit to leaving him in the Q for a year where he would have scored a zillion goals playing with one hand tied behind his back. 16 goals in the NHL with third line minutes == how many goals in the Q? I'm not interested, those performances should never be observed in junior leagues it's bad for development.

Latendresse, D'Agostini, O'Byrne, SK74 are players who have gone on to great sucecss elsewhere. Pouliot is going on to great success in Boston. I bet AK46 will do so in 14 months as well. Lapierre, a former 15 goal scorer who was elite for drawing penalties which we care about as a collection of PP specialists, was replaced by... Ryan White. Chipchura is the only recent ex-Hab who has not gone on to greater success elsewhere.

I don't blame Martin. I mostly blame Gainey. O'Byrne would be preferable to Spacek right now, and a line of Latendresse-Plekanec-Cammalleri would look great in our top-6. Instead, we're paying 4.5 million to an aging Cole to produce the same 20-25 goals that a prime-entering Latendresse would produce for 3 million.
What misconceptions? Did I say Lats wasn't ready?



Why write a ton of words rehashing things most here already know? No chite bro. Go search articles and forums of when Lats signed his first contract. I'm not making anything up.

As for the rest, your whole diatribe is based on assumptions and a whole lot of removal of context. So much, that I would waste my time explaining them, only to have you pass over them and repeat your manthra of "Gainey's fault".


All the players you named are marginal. SK was a brat, bad for team spirit. Lats was a primadona of the media's making, with an abysmal dedication to training. Lapierre was a brat who tried to live off his media reputation but like his friend, didn't put in the effort. O'Byrne's confidence was 0, and that has more to do with the enviornment. He just wasn't strong enough between the ears to succeed here. And Pouliot was the same as OB.

The only one I don't understand is Dags, but unlike you and many others, I won't pretend to 'know' it was the organization's fault. He too seemed to lack confidence, but the other ones it was expressed in many direct reports (their problems), while Dags only showed it in his inconsistency.

Go find the Lats training vid from last summer on RDS. Maybe that'll clear some of your own miconceptions, as you can clearly see in that video that Lats regrets not being able to adapt and have the dedication his coaches and teamates told him he needed to have when he was with the Habs. He even seems shameful (looks down a lot when he talks of his flaws) when he talks about it.

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07-20-2011, 07:53 AM
  #125
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Are you really comparing his point totals to two defensemen one of which is of the defensive variety? Your argument looses a ton of credibility right there.

Also how you can say those players of gone on to GREAT success is beyond me.

Tenderness has a good, not great, 55 games to end a season with the Wild. He still remains decent player who does not show the greatest of dedication and his own lack of being in shape likely contributed to his injury last season.

D'agostini produced 0 points in 7 games after his trade but did have a good season last year and time will tell if he keeps it up. Would he have developed the same way as a Hab? Who knows but I would not have minded him being still around. This being said his defensive game still is lacking.

O'byrne is another guy I would have loved to have seen stay but in the end he was the low man on the totem pole here because of age, experience and the Martin factor. He got big minutes on a weak Colorado team and he took advantage of it.

Sergei is, well, Sergei. The dude has an inflated head and close to the same level of entitlement as Tenderness. Yes he had a 23 goal, 50 point season but that is far from elite scoring. He could very well become the top end talent that many thought he would be here but all depends on if he lets her ego get in the way.

Again these guys have shows some small flashes of being very good players but none of them have been as good as you seem to be inferring.
Regardless of what you think of Latendresse, that trade was a horrible one.

You don't trade a young(21 or 22 year old) up and coming power forward with 30-35 goal potential for a guy who looks like a complete bust and had not even established himself as a full time NHLer at the same stage.

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