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What more does Datsyuk need to do before he is a HoF Lock?

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Old
07-19-2011, 10:15 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KpopandHockey View Post
Who was the last player other than joe to record 2 back to back 90 assist seasons?
I love Joe and am a big fan of his but I want to see him win a cup or expand his game before I consider him.

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07-19-2011, 10:16 AM
  #27
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1,000 pts + and he's in.

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07-19-2011, 10:17 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by GoHoundsGo View Post
I love Joe and am a big fan of his but I want to see him win a cup or expand his game before I consider him.
What do you mean? Didn't he do this last season?

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07-19-2011, 10:21 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by KpopandHockey View Post
What do you mean? Didn't he do this last season?
He was a good checker, but I am talking great. Or, become a Dave Anderychuk type leader - that guy changed teams with his attitude alone, once his skill set started to wane.

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07-19-2011, 10:22 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHoundsGo View Post
I don't believe in the points prerequisite.

I find it hard to believe that people are shooing in Tim Thomas but Pavel Datsyuk is far from a lock. But its possible I just don't understand the induction standards...
Tim Thomas has been voted the best player at his position twice in the last 3 years and has a Conn Smythe and is second to only Hasek in career save percentage for goalies with more than 100 games.

As it stands right now, Thomas has a better shot than Datsyuk.

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Old
07-19-2011, 10:26 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KpopandHockey View Post
Who was the last player other than joe to record 2 back to back 90 assist seasons?
Lemieux, Gretzky and Thornton are the only ones to have ever done this.

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Old
07-19-2011, 10:34 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
The only other player to do what he did with the Selke and Byng is Francis. They both have comparable careers. The only thing you could probably differentiate between the two is the leadership factor.
That and, oh, 1200 points or so.

We're talking about Datsyuk having trouble hitting 1000 points... Francis finished with 1249 assists.

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Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
By that logic then, Joe Thornton will have a much better chance then Datsyuk to get into the HoF. Do you think that is so? It's fine if you disagree, but I think Datsyuk will be looked back upon as a better player than Joe Thornton. Could just be the Wing's fan in me, but I thought that would be the general consencous too.
I think Thornton has a better chance as it stands right now. He won a Hart, has already hit 1000 points, and has more assists than Datsyuk has points. He's second to Ovechkin in post-lockout scoring (more than Crosby) and the assist leader during that period. I doubt many people realize he is the top scorer of the past decade by an 83-point margin, and for that matter the top scorer since 1997.

If Thornton were to win a Cup and finally get that playoff monkey off his back, he would be an absolute lock if he isn't already. Datsyuk is the better player IMO, but unfortunately the Hall of Fame isn't always about who is the best player. It's more about what each player achieves in his career.

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Old
07-19-2011, 10:41 AM
  #33
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That and, oh, 1200 points or so.

We're talking about Datsyuk having trouble hitting 1000 points... Francis finished with 1249 assists.
Touche


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07-19-2011, 10:49 AM
  #34
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Since its his birthday tomorrow, he has to get wasted and end up on TMZ. Then he's in.

I would say just stay the course for a few more seasons. Meaning stay healthy, at least a ppg avg, and finish with around 1000 points.

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07-19-2011, 10:51 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That and, oh, 1200 points or so.

We're talking about Datsyuk having trouble hitting 1000 points... Francis finished with 1249 assists.



I think Thornton has a better chance as it stands right now. He won a Hart, has already hit 1000 points, and has more assists than Datsyuk has points. He's second to Ovechkin in post-lockout scoring (more than Crosby) and the assist leader during that period. I doubt many people realize he is the top scorer of the past decade by an 83-point margin, and for that matter the top scorer since 1997.

If Thornton were to win a Cup and finally get that playoff monkey off his back, he would be an absolute lock if he isn't already. Datsyuk is the better player IMO, but unfortunately the Hall of Fame isn't always about who is the best player. It's more about what each player achieves in his career.
This ^

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07-19-2011, 10:54 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
He's one of only two players in NHL history to receive both the Selke and Lady Byng in their NHL careers (which is actually quite impressive). he won the both together in two years. He's also a PPG player over his career, his plus/minus in his career is a ridiculous 187, he's only put up 172 career PIMs. He's probably already one of the best defensive forwards in NHL history already.

The voters may not care about Byngs but getting them while putting up Selke Trophy's in the same year is impressive. If he puts up a PPG in his career stats (say gets to 1000 points), he should be a lock for the Hall. The only other player to do what he did with the Selke and Byng is Francis. They both have comparable careers. The only thing you could probably differentiate between the two is the leadership factor.
I'm not even sure how you can contemplate this as being true.

Francis is #24 all time goals, #4 all time points, only Howe and Messier have played more games and only some chump named Gretzky has ever had more assists.

Datsyuk could double what he's done career to date and still not touch Francis.

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07-19-2011, 11:03 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That and, oh, 1200 points or so.

We're talking about Datsyuk having trouble hitting 1000 points... Francis finished with 1249 assists.


Francis' Career: 81-82 to 03-04, 549 goals, 1249 assists = 1798 points in 1731 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 25 goals, 59 assists = 84 points
Goals per game during career: 6.55

Datsyuk's Career: 01-02 to 10-11, 221 goals, 430 assists = 651 points in 662 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 27 goals, 53 assists = 80 points
Goals per game during career: 5.60
Datsyuk with Francis' era average: 32 goals, 62 assists = 94 points
Adjusted Career: 259 goals, 503 assists = 762 points in 662 games

Obviously Francis is damn impressive, and I'm not trying to diminish that, but I'm sure Datsyuk would appreciate playing in an era with 20% more scoring.

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07-19-2011, 11:06 AM
  #38
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So the short answer is that he has to keep playing at the same caliber for several more years?

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07-19-2011, 11:08 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
Francis' Career: 81-82 to 03-04, 549 goals, 1249 assists = 1798 points in 1731 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 25 goals, 59 assists = 84 points
Goals per game during career: 6.55

Datsyuk's Career: 01-02 to 10-11, 221 goals, 430 assists = 651 points in 662 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 27 goals, 53 assists = 80 points
Goals per game during career: 5.60
Datsyuk with Francis' era average: 32 goals, 62 assists = 94 points
Adjusted Career: 259 goals, 503 assists = 762 points in 662 games

Obviously Francis is damn impressive, and I'm not trying to diminish that, but I'm sure Datsyuk would appreciate playing in an era with 20% more scoring.
I'm a huge fan of Datsyuk, but Francis played through his decline as he got older, which is normal. You're looking at only Datsyuk's averages for his prime. Maybe if you compared once Datsyuk's averages decline as he plays towards age 40, then it would make sense to compare averages.

Quote:
So the short answer is that he has to keep playing at the same caliber for several more years?
Basically. 3-5 years.

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07-19-2011, 11:09 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
Francis' Career: 81-82 to 03-04, 549 goals, 1249 assists = 1798 points in 1731 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 25 goals, 59 assists = 84 points
Goals per game during career: 6.55

Datsyuk's Career: 01-02 to 10-11, 221 goals, 430 assists = 651 points in 662 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 27 goals, 53 assists = 80 points
Goals per game during career: 5.60
Datsyuk with Francis' era average: 32 goals, 62 assists = 94 points
Adjusted Career: 259 goals, 503 assists = 762 points in 662 games

Obviously Francis is damn impressive, and I'm not trying to diminish that, but I'm sure Datsyuk would appreciate playing in an era with 20% more scoring.
Nice attempt to use pro-rated stats to ignore the fact that Francis is #2 all time assists and #4 all time points.

Holding PPG over 23 seasons and 1700 games is very significantly harder than holding it over 9 seasons and 600 games regardless of era

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07-19-2011, 11:12 AM
  #41
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Datsyuk's probably past his high scoring days. He's 32, and I doubt he's going to come out and score 120 points or 50 goals. So he'll have to continue playing very good hockey and putting up points for AT LEAST five years...maybe longer.

Ron Francis scored consistently over 20 years...Datsyuk has 10. So he's got a ways to go. And remember with the PPG comparisons, players trail off near the end of their career.

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07-19-2011, 11:26 AM
  #42
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I would guess he needs Conn Smythe/1000 pts/another Cup. Either of them will probably do it.
Some international awards would also be nice.

Quote:
So the short answer is that he has to keep playing at the same caliber for several more years?
I reckon so.

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07-19-2011, 11:38 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by DetBigWangs View Post
So the short answer is that he has to keep playing at the same caliber for several more years?
Exactly.

He's got hardware, he's got cups, he should get close enough to a 1,000 points to be in pretty easily even without the Hart or Art Ross. Maybe not first ballot, but definitely in.

I'd be surprised if he wasn't able to put up the numbers he would need to be in.

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07-19-2011, 11:41 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
Francis' Career: 81-82 to 03-04, 549 goals, 1249 assists = 1798 points in 1731 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 25 goals, 59 assists = 84 points
Goals per game during career: 6.55

Datsyuk's Career: 01-02 to 10-11, 221 goals, 430 assists = 651 points in 662 GP
Prorate to 82 games: 27 goals, 53 assists = 80 points
Goals per game during career: 5.60
Datsyuk with Francis' era average: 32 goals, 62 assists = 94 points
Adjusted Career: 259 goals, 503 assists = 762 points in 662 games
Are you suggesting the HoF committee is going to draw something like that up, and adjust every players numbers for average offense during the era they played?

What's next? Adjusting Lindros/Bure career point totals based on point total trajectory had they not been injured? Should they consider putting numerical values on leadership/intangibles and give bonus points for every locker room speech, with a double point bonus if the team wins because of it?

Datsyuk was 23 when he entered the NHL and over the next 10 years, compiled 651 points (missing 1 year to lockout).

When Francis was 23 he already had 4 seasons and 331 points under his belt, and over the next 10 years he put up another 858 points (missing half a season to lockout).

Francis had 1,000 career points by the time he was 28, Datsyuk is 33 and we're questioning whether or not he'll ever do it. I think that says all you need to know about trying to compare them.

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07-19-2011, 11:43 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KpopandHockey View Post
Who was the last player other than joe to record 2 back to back 90 assist seasons?
And let's not forget his mastery of the art of diving . But seriously, that's the problem with point totals being such a big part of a person's opinion of a player. You overrate one dimensional players like Crosby and Thornton and underrate two-way players like Datsyuk and Kesler. Who would honestly take Thornton over Datsyuk in a playoff series (when it really matters)? I know I wouldn't because Pavel has the type of game which contributes to team play and championships; how many cups has Jumbo Joe won again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHoundsGo View Post
I don't believe in the points prerequisite.

I find it hard to believe that people are shooing in Tim Thomas but Pavel Datsyuk is far from a lock. But its possible I just don't understand the induction standards...
I completely agree. Don't get me wrong Tim Thomas has had a couple of unbelievable seasons in his career and may very well be worthy of being a HOF inductee; but honestly, Datsyuk has already had a more impressive career IMO. And while it's very hard to compare a forward and a goalie, I think Thomas himself would tell you that Datsyuk is the better hockey player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
Tim Thomas has been voted the best player at his position twice in the last 3 years and has a Conn Smythe and is second to only Hasek in career save percentage for goalies with more than 100 games.

As it stands right now, Thomas has a better shot than Datsyuk.
Yeah but goalie is a much more black and white position than forward. As a goaltender you're either the best or you're not. Save percentage, goals against average, wins, etc., those stats clearly suggest who is best.

The top forward is much more arbitrary and difficult to judge; and I think Datsyuk gets really underrated because he sacrifices a lot of offensive for defense. And you cannot watch Datsyuk play and honestly suggest he is not one of the most skilled (if not the most skilled) NHL players in history.


Last edited by RedMachine87: 07-19-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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07-19-2011, 11:50 AM
  #46
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If Dick Duff can make the Hall of Fame, then.............

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07-19-2011, 12:08 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That and, oh, 1200 points or so.

We're talking about Datsyuk having trouble hitting 1000 points... Francis finished with 1249 assists.
Maybe if Datsyuk played with Lemieux and Jagr for a season and played vs some of the same swiss cheese goaltenders he'd put up 1200. In all seriousness though, I am sure most of the writers will adjust their analysis to how well they dominated their peers, not numbers. It's kinda unrealistic to still use the 80s standard of points in today's NHL.

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07-19-2011, 12:10 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
Career Highlights so far
-3 Selkes
-Two Cups. 1 SCF.
-Several top 5 scoring finishes.
-Hall of Fame/legendary stick handling ability. If you think the writers won't remember that, you're kidding yourself
-4 Lady Byngs
-4 All Star Apperances + no show
-Second All Star Team 2009
- Best Plus Minus Award: 2008
- Calder Trophy Finalist
-World Championship Best Forward: 2010
-3 Time Olympian
-Nominated for Hart Trophy
-Voted Best Russian NHL Player by Russian NHL Players: 2010
-Feared Enforcer

What else does he have to do to solidfy his Hall of Fame Status? I think his career numbers may hurt him since he played 3rd-2nd line minutes for so long on stacked Detroit teams early on/Dead Puck era. I think any 2 of these 3 and he is in. One more Cup, one more Selke, 1000 points or over a ppg.

He won TWO stanley cups and has only been in ONE stanley cup finals.

That alone should make him a HHOF lock

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07-19-2011, 12:11 PM
  #49
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Another top-5 finish in scoring
Over 1000 career points

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07-19-2011, 12:17 PM
  #50
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I really don't know the standards for the hall of fame. But it may end up biting him in the *** that he really didn't break out until he was in his mid-20's. Guys like Sid and Ovy have already had major success as they're just hitting that age now.

If Sid had not gone down with injury this season and put up 100+ pts this upcoming season, he would have surpassed Jagr in scoring, first 7 seasons each. To put it in perspective, Pavel's going to find it hard to get in with all the young talent around him.


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