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Hockey's Best "Five-Tool" Player

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Old
07-20-2011, 08:26 PM
  #26
BraveCanadian
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I agree Forsberg ramped it up in the playoffs, but those are a lot of if ands and arbitrary cutoffs to try and make him look good.

Face the facts, he topped out as a 30 goal scorer.

If we're going to include him we would then definitely have to include the better version of him: Trottier, despite the fact Trottier had a horrible slapshot.

A ton of the names brought up in this thread are not five tool guys. A lot of them are 3 or 4.

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07-20-2011, 08:38 PM
  #27
Kopistar11
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Lindros is perfect for this thread

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07-20-2011, 08:40 PM
  #28
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
His goalscoring ability was definitely elite. He could score all types of different goals, and in dominant fashion. In the playoffs during the dead puck era (97-2004, 8 straight years) he was the 3rd best goalscorer on a per game basis behind Sakic and Jagr, including players who played only 40 or more games in this time frame, he played over 100.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...goals_per_game

In 2003 and 04 combined he was 16th in goals per game among players who played atleast 100 games combined in those 2 seasons. His gpg was .41, but the leader in those two years had a .52 (one of them was his linemate Hejduk, the other Naslund) and all but 4 players scored at a .49 clip or lower in the two years combined including Iginla and Kovalchuk. It has to be mentioned that his assist per game was .34 more than anyone who scored at the same rate or higher, and was .25 more than second place Thornton who scored at a .38 goal per game clip in these two years combined, when he was more of a goalscorer than he has been post lockout, but basically as good a playmaker save for the consecutive 90+ assist seasons.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...goals_per_game

And incase you haven't seen, or need to refresh your memory...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRtrQ1YrCzw
I have to disagree.
He was definitely an elite player and an elite passer but he wasn't an elite goal scorer.
At the end of the day his career high was only 30 goals and his GPG over his career was only 0.35....that's just not high enough to be considered an elite goal scorer.
I mean at some point in his career, you have to consistently at least be within striking distance of the Richard trophy to be considered an elite goal scorer.

An elite goal scorer is someone like Lemieux, Sakic, OV, Crosby now, Iginla, Selanne, Kovalchuk, Hull, Bure ect.
Peter is simply just not any where close to being in that class.
It's not just about goals either, his shot totals were not very high, barely cracking 200 in a full season.
You have to shoot to score and he just didn't have that in his game.

I know you're going to get all pissy with me now Infinite but remember I'm not insulting Peter here, it's just the reality of it all.
No doubt the guy scored some big goals, especially in the playoff's but that still doesn't make him an elite goal scorer. That would be like calling Claude Lemieux an elite goal scorer for the same reasons and that's just not going to happen.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 07-20-2011 at 08:55 PM.
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07-20-2011, 08:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Kopistar11 View Post
Lindros is perfect for this thread

Like Brave said, a lot of 4 tool guys but not 5 are being listed and that includes Lindros.
His speed was not enough to warrant the 5th tool rating.

You have to really consider the rarity of such players. It's no different in baseball, how many Triple Crown threats have you ever seen that were also fast and stole 30+ bases while playing above average defense.....I can almost count them on one hand.


After Orr and then Howe the list thins very quickly. Even Mario prolly wasn't fast enough to qualify.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 07-20-2011 at 08:53 PM.
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07-20-2011, 08:46 PM
  #30
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Maybe it would be easier if we define "elite" first.
It seems as if different people here define it differently.

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07-20-2011, 08:57 PM
  #31
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I have a feeling Nail Yakupov will be a complete player

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07-20-2011, 09:01 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Like Brave said, a lot of 4 tool guys but not 5 are being listed and that includes Lindros.
His speed was not enough to warrant the 5th tool rating.

You have to really consider the rarity of such players. It's no different in baseball, how many Triple Crown threats have you ever seen that were also fast and stole 30+ bases while playing above average defense.....I can almost count them on one hand.


After Orr and then Howe the list thins very quickly. Even Mario prolly wasn't fast enough to qualify.
Oh yeah, that's true. As i mentionted Yakupov i think can be that complete player.

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07-20-2011, 09:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kopistar11 View Post
I have a feeling Nail Yakupov will be a complete player
Rob Klinkhammer as well.

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07-20-2011, 09:10 PM
  #34
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I mean if you wanted I could see someone making a case for Al Iafrate as a 5 tool player...it's just that he also had a 5 cent head so those tools for the most part went to waste.

You don't have to be a 5 tool player to be an elite player and being a 5 tool player doesn't automatically make you elite either.

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07-20-2011, 09:18 PM
  #35
Darrelle Lundqvist
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Between Fedorov and Forsberg IMO.

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07-20-2011, 09:26 PM
  #36
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Depending on how you'd define number 4, I'd put in a homer pick for Datsyuk (as being one, not as being the best).

1) This one would be the weakest one as he's not known as a goal scorer, but he's definitely a bit above average.

2) He has a deceptive "second gear" that gives him extra speed. Agility-wise, I still remember a game where two opponents were trying to check him simultaneously, and he managed to not only hang on to the puck but make the players hit each other instead of hitting him.

3) I don't think this one would be contested.

4) While he doesn't really hit players and certainly wouldn't be confused as an enforcer, he has a lot of physical strength, is very strong on his skates, and never gives up.

5) I don't think this one would be contested either.

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07-20-2011, 09:42 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I mean if you wanted I could see someone making a case for Al Iafrate as a 5 tool player...it's just that he also had a 5 cent head so those tools for the most part went to waste.

You don't have to be a 5 tool player to be an elite player and being a 5 tool player doesn't automatically make you elite either.
I thought about Iafrate too but he didn't have the most sound defensive game as far as positioning or anticipation.

Like you said he had all the physical skills but didn't have very good hockey sense. So to me he is one of those 4/5 guys where he was just missing one part.

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Old
07-21-2011, 02:45 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Like Brave said, a lot of 4 tool guys but not 5 are being listed and that includes Lindros.
His speed was not enough to warrant the 5th tool rating.


You have to really consider the rarity of such players. It's no different in baseball, how many Triple Crown threats have you ever seen that were also fast and stole 30+ bases while playing above average defense.....I can almost count them on one hand.


After Orr and then Howe the list thins very quickly. Even Mario prolly wasn't fast enough to qualify.
Lindros absolutely had plus speed. Outside of Orr & Howe (I never watched much film of Howe, so I don't know how fast a skater he was) he's the only guy mentioned I'd label a 5 tool guy. In fact, part of what made him so hyped was that he was the complete package.

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07-21-2011, 04:03 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
Lindros absolutely had plus speed. Outside of Orr & Howe (I never watched much film of Howe, so I don't know how fast a skater he was) he's the only guy mentioned I'd label a 5 tool guy. In fact, part of what made him so hyped was that he was the complete package.
He had very good speed for a guy his size, yes.
Did he have Fedorov, Lafleur, Bure, Gartner, Orr kinda speed...not even close.
Mario in his prime was faster than Lindros and like I already mentioned, he was not in the upper ranks either.

Lindros just looked faster than he was because while everyone else was being slowed down from all the hooking and interference, Eric, once moving blew through hooks and interference like it wasn't even there.

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07-21-2011, 04:10 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I thought about Iafrate too but he didn't have the most sound defensive game as far as positioning or anticipation.

Like you said he had all the physical skills but didn't have very good hockey sense. So to me he is one of those 4/5 guys where he was just missing one part.
this thread also reminded me of the classic "all the tools, no toolbox" conundrum. similar to iafrate, how about bryan fogarty? i don't remember him standing out defensively with the nords, though that team was so bad no one on their blueline looked good. but i do recall his hockey sense being very highly praised, so maybe he does qualify as a five-tool player?

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07-21-2011, 04:17 PM
  #41
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
this thread also reminded me of the classic "all the tools, no toolbox" conundrum. similar to iafrate, how about bryan fogarty? i don't remember him standing out defensively with the nords, though that team was so bad no one on their blueline looked good. but i do recall his hockey sense being very highly praised, so maybe he does qualify as a five-tool player?
Good case to be made. Unfortunately, his off ice activities kept us from ever seeing him use those tools much.

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07-21-2011, 04:48 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
this thread also reminded me of the classic "all the tools, no toolbox" conundrum. similar to iafrate, how about bryan fogarty? i don't remember him standing out defensively with the nords, though that team was so bad no one on their blueline looked good. but i do recall his hockey sense being very highly praised, so maybe he does qualify as a five-tool player?
Yes Fogarty had everything.

Too bad he also had demons.

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07-21-2011, 05:14 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
He had very good speed for a guy his size, yes.
Did he have Fedorov, Lafleur, Bure, Gartner, Orr kinda speed...not even close.
Mario in his prime was faster than Lindros and like I already mentioned, he was not in the upper ranks either.

Lindros just looked faster than he was because while everyone else was being slowed down from all the hooking and interference, Eric, once moving blew through hooks and interference like it wasn't even there.
Yeah, we're going to have to disagree here. No, he didn't have Bure, etc. type speed, that would be plus plus speed.

But he had plus speed, and not just for a guy his size. He was fast. Faster than at least 75% of the rest of the league. I actually remember him being a much better skater than Mario, but that may be due more to Lemieux already struggling with cancer/back injuries/retirement during Eric's heyday.

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Old
07-21-2011, 06:13 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I agree Forsberg ramped it up in the playoffs, but those are a lot of if ands and arbitrary cutoffs to try and make him look good.

Face the facts, he topped out as a 30 goal scorer.

If we're going to include him we would then definitely have to include the better version of him: Trottier, despite the fact Trottier had a horrible slapshot.

A ton of the names brought up in this thread are not five tool guys. A lot of them are 3 or 4.
This. Forsberg may have scored at a higher pace in the playoffs, but he was far from elite.

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07-21-2011, 06:27 PM
  #45
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Riddle me this....

1) Who remains the ONLY defenseman to win the Art Ross multiple times, and when retired had the highest PPG in history...?

2) Who had more fights (47 in 657 games) than Gordie Howe, Wayne Gretzky, and Mario Lemeiux COMBINED (39 in 4669)...?

3) Who has the highest +/- per game by nearly DOUBLE over the next guy....?

4) Who skated like the wind and made others look like human pylons, skating either around or through you....?

5) Who blocked shots, cleared the crease, dug in the corners, and was a top notch defensive player when necessary....?

There is only one player in the history of hockey who fulfilled all these requirements -- he remains Hockey's Masterpiece


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