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Old
07-20-2011, 11:56 AM
  #76
Winroba
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No thanks

Edler (at $3.5m) is way more valuable to us than Weber (at $7m?)

Having Weber would rule but having his cap hit be 2x the size of Edlers would not

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07-20-2011, 11:59 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
No thanks

Edler (at $3.5m) is way more valuable to us than Weber (at $7m?)

Having Weber would rule but having his cap hit be 2x the size of Edlers would not
I agree with this.

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Old
07-20-2011, 12:21 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I agree with you, Nashville could no doubt get a better deal elsewhere. Unless a legit top 6 sniper is coming back I see no incentive for them to move Weber. Someone in the mold of Kessel, Ryan, Parise, Tavares, or Giroux.

I don't understand why some Vancouver fans like this though, it doesn't make us into a better team next season. Trading Edler for Weber while sacrificing a ton of quality depth is not the type of deal we should be making. Sure, the value is there, but it just doesn't make any sense for anyone.

Thanks for putting together a quality post by the way...
I agree. Vancouver's defense is set. What seemed to keep them from winning the Cup was a lack of offense. Why give up a good, young defenseman on a good contract for a great, young defenseman who is likely to earn twice what Edler gets paid next year? Especially knowing forward depth has to go the other way, too. Bad trading partners are bad trading partners regardless of the dreams of fans.

Oh and I really don't feel like digging back through this thread to find out who, but someone mentioned how Weber will be a UFA next year if he hits arbitration this year (assuming, I guess, that the arbiter gives only a one year deal and not two). That's incorrect. If a one year deal is given by the arbiter then Weber will still be an RFA at the end of that year. He is an RFA until 2013. Of course, if the deal is two years then yes, he will hit UFA status if not signed to a new contract by July 1 2013.

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07-20-2011, 12:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Briecheeze View Post
Assuming Nashville has problems with resigning Weber/convincing him that Nashville is going to be competitive:

To Van:

D Shea Weber (RFA)

To Nsh:

D Alexander Edler (2 years/3.25 M)
F Mikael Samuelsson (1 year/2.5 M)
F Cody Hodgson (2 years/1.66 M)


Canucks upgrade their D (and pay the price), Nashville gets a prospect, a solid top pairing defenceman (at a very good price) to replace Weber, and a top 6 RW. Maybe add a pick from Vancouver's side?

Problem for Vancouver is that it plays havoc with their already limited cap space if Weber signs for much more than 6 mill and depletes their forward depth... I know Samuelsson played with the Sedins for periods of time last year, but he was mostly a second liner if I remember - slot Sturm on Kesler's wing instead?

Let the criticisms fly!
No thanks, Edler is not available.

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07-20-2011, 01:01 PM
  #80
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[QUOTE=RaiderDoug;35202507]
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post

I can play that game too!

In 2 seasons, Jonathan Blum will be a legit top 15 D-man. He was as impressive as any D-man on the Preds in his short stint with the big club and in the playoffs. He's on pace to have a 40 points if he played the full season (and that doesn't count any improvement due to experience/natural growth of the player). He singlehandedly allowed us to give away Cody Franson. At worst, he's a better Dan Hamhuis. We might have another Ryan Suter.

And we still don't want Edler for Weber, as he'd be the #3 d-man on our team.

Give us scoring, or we shop somewhere else.
If it was Edler for Weber, Edler is your number one dman. He is better than Suter. He is like Weber, more offensive and two way than Suter.

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07-20-2011, 01:05 PM
  #81
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[QUOTE=ronaldo123;35210387]
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post

If it was Edler for Weber, Edler is your number one dman. He is better than Suter. He is like Weber, more offensive and two way than Suter.
Problem is Weber isnt our #1 D Suter is..

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07-20-2011, 01:05 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I agree. Vancouver's defense is set. What seemed to keep them from winning the Cup was a lack of offense. Why give up a good, young defenseman on a good contract for a great, young defenseman who is likely to earn twice what Edler gets paid next year? Especially knowing forward depth has to go the other way, too. Bad trading partners are bad trading partners regardless of the dreams of fans.

Oh and I really don't feel like digging back through this thread to find out who, but someone mentioned how Weber will be a UFA next year if he hits arbitration this year (assuming, I guess, that the arbiter gives only a one year deal and not two). That's incorrect. If a one year deal is given by the arbiter then Weber will still be an RFA at the end of that year. He is an RFA until 2013. Of course, if the deal is two years then yes, he will hit UFA status if not signed to a new contract by July 1 2013.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the team elected for arbitration I believe it's Weber's choice between a 1 year or 2 year contract at the decided amount. It would be in Weber's best interest to elect for a 2 year contract, this way even if he DOES decide to re-sign in Nashville he has greater bargaining power.

Either way, Weber will be a Predator for atleast another year. If he's having some second thoughts at this point as to whether or not he wants to sign in Nashville long term those may go away if Nashville can string together another decent post season run. If not, Weber can be traded next offseason if they choose too move him.

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07-20-2011, 01:14 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Predsrule View Post
Can i have the loto numbers as well? thats like me saying Sedins will be ufa in a couple of years and go to the higest bidder.. you cant really know that.
and if you know its bad logic why use it.. you wouldnt say Marchand > any Van player.
no, it's not like you saying the Sedins will be UFAs in a couple years and go to the highest bidder.

Weber does not have a contract. He is a RFA. He can be awarded a 2yr deal in arbitration. He CAN walk as a UFA in 2 yrs. This is a reality in his contract situation.

The Sedins are both locked up for 3 more years. They can not walk as UFAs in "a couple years". This is not possible in reality, unless they are bought out of their contracts in 2 yrs. And no GM in the world is stupid enough to buyout a 100 point player on a $6mill/yr contract.

But for the sake of argument, let's say the Sedins were just signed for 2 more years... then you would be absolutely correct! Their value would be that of 2 players who are UFAs in 2 years.... their values would not be what Canuck fans assume the future would be. They can all be convinced they'd retire Canucks, but the reality of their contracts would dictate their value as assets. This is no different AT ALL for Weber.

I don't know why this is so hard for people to grasp here. Weber is a RFA. His value as an asset is reflected in the contract he has. He is a fantastic player on the ice. But we do not know what his cap hit is. We do not know how long he will sign for.

If Weber wants $8mill/yr and will only sign a 2yr deal, does that really make him a valuable asset? He is certainly not worth as much as Kesler at that stage - who's got a $5mill cap hit for another 5 years. If Weber is keen on hitting the UFA market in 2 yrs and will not sign longer than that, his value will also be hurt because of that - just like the Sedins would if they were hitting UFA status in 2 yrs.

Right now, given contract situations, Kesler is simply worth more than Weber. Those that are asking for Kesler and Edler for Weber given their current contract situations are either insane or do not grasp the concept of contract value and how it effects player values.

It's completely understandable that you do not want to move Weber for what he's worth right now on the market given his contract situation. But it's ridiculous suggesting that he's worth Kesler+ (especially adding Edler??) and trying to justify that without even considering his contract.

Right now, given *everything* that determines the value of an asset in the market, Kesler > Weber. You might not want to deal him for that, or want much more... but realistically his value as an asset is simply lower than Kesler's.

Now if Weber signs for $6mill or less, on a deal that's 4+ years in length, then his value exceeds that of Kesler's. But right now, Kesler signed for $500K/yr more than what the average 2nd line forwards were getting in FA, and locked up through his prime years, is a much more valuable asset than Weber with the uncertainty around his contract.

This is not a hard concept to understand, but one that seems to be ignored by most Predators fans.

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Old
07-20-2011, 01:16 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post

I can play that game too!

In 2 seasons, Jonathan Blum will be a legit top 15 D-man. He was as impressive as any D-man on the Preds in his short stint with the big club and in the playoffs. He's on pace to have a 40 points if he played the full season (and that doesn't count any improvement due to experience/natural growth of the player). He singlehandedly allowed us to give away Cody Franson. At worst, he's a better Dan Hamhuis. We might have another Ryan Suter.

And we still don't want Edler for Weber, as he'd be the #3 d-man on our team.

Give us scoring, or we shop somewhere else.
I think you meant to quote me here. You kind of went to the extreme there hey? I think a couple months is a bit different than 2 years. Edler was playing like a top 15 dman last season before his injury, he just didn't solidify himself as such as he wasn't able to string it together for long enough (due to the injury).

And no... Edler would be your #2 behind Suter if Weber left. If you think Blum is better than Edler you're dillusional. Even to say that Blum is better than Dan Hamhuis is ridiculous. And for the record I think your math skills are a little off, having 10 points in 35 games is not "being on pace for 40 points".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo123 View Post

If it was Edler for Weber, Edler is your number one dman. He is better than Suter. He is like Weber, more offensive and two way than Suter.
I'm not sure if you're joking, if you aren't your making Canucks fans look bad. Suter is much better than Edler at this point. Edler may catch up in the next couple years, but as of now Suter is far superior.

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07-20-2011, 01:26 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I think you meant to quote me here. You kind of went to the extreme there hey? I think a couple months is a bit different than 2 years. Edler was playing like a top 15 dman last season before his injury, he just didn't solidify himself as such as he wasn't able to string it together for long enough (due to the injury).

And no... Edler would be your #2 behind Suter if Weber left. If you think Blum is better than Edler you're dillusional. Even to say that Blum is better than Dan Hamhuis is ridiculous. And for the record I think your math skills are a little off, having 10 points in 35 games is not "being on pace for 40 points".



I'm not sure if you're joking, if you aren't your making Canucks fans look bad. Suter is much better than Edler at this point. Edler may catch up in the next couple years, but as of now Suter is far superior.


Truth be told I don't see why this is still on the go. Both of the main fans on both sides seem to understand both sides points.. We all need to get some beer and go back to hating the wings or some other common enemy.. till 2 weeks time this same Weber to Van comes back up and we can do it all again..

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Old
07-20-2011, 01:27 PM
  #86
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Truth be told I don't see why this is still on the go. Both of the main fans on both sides seem to understand both sides points.. We all need to get some beer and go back to hating the wings or some other common enemy.. till 2 weeks time this same Weber to Van comes back up and we can do it all again..
As long as Ballard and a 4th are part of the proposal then I'm fine with it.

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Old
07-20-2011, 01:29 PM
  #87
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no, it's not like you saying the Sedins will be UFAs in a couple years and go to the highest bidder.

Weber does not have a contract. He is a RFA. He can be awarded a 2yr deal in arbitration. He CAN walk as a UFA in 2 yrs. This is a reality in his contract situation.

The Sedins are both locked up for 3 more years. They can not walk as UFAs in "a couple years". This is not possible in reality, unless they are bought out of their contracts in 2 yrs. And no GM in the world is stupid enough to buyout a 100 point player on a $6mill/yr contract.

But for the sake of argument, let's say the Sedins were just signed for 2 more years... then you would be absolutely correct! Their value would be that of 2 players who are UFAs in 2 years.... their values would not be what Canuck fans assume the future would be. They can all be convinced they'd retire Canucks, but the reality of their contracts would dictate their value as assets. This is no different AT ALL for Weber.

I don't know why this is so hard for people to grasp here. Weber is a RFA. His value as an asset is reflected in the contract he has. He is a fantastic player on the ice. But we do not know what his cap hit is. We do not know how long he will sign for.

If Weber wants $8mill/yr and will only sign a 2yr deal, does that really make him a valuable asset? He is certainly not worth as much as Kesler at that stage - who's got a $5mill cap hit for another 5 years. If Weber is keen on hitting the UFA market in 2 yrs and will not sign longer than that, his value will also be hurt because of that - just like the Sedins would if they were hitting UFA status in 2 yrs.

Right now, given contract situations, Kesler is simply worth more than Weber. Those that are asking for Kesler and Edler for Weber given their current contract situations are either insane or do not grasp the concept of contract value and how it effects player values.

It's completely understandable that you do not want to move Weber for what he's worth right now on the market given his contract situation. But it's ridiculous suggesting that he's worth Kesler+ (especially adding Edler??) and trying to justify that without even considering his contract.

Right now, given *everything* that determines the value of an asset in the market, Kesler > Weber. You might not want to deal him for that, or want much more... but realistically his value as an asset is simply lower than Kesler's.

Now if Weber signs for $6mill or less, on a deal that's 4+ years in length, then his value exceeds that of Kesler's. But right now, Kesler signed for $500K/yr more than what the average 2nd line forwards were getting in FA, and locked up through his prime years, is a much more valuable asset than Weber with the uncertainty around his contract.

This is not a hard concept to understand, but one that seems to be ignored by most Predators fans.
I was talking about their ufa years.. (come on you really thought I was talking about a buy out?) This is not a hard concept to understand, but one that seems to be ignored by most Vancouver fans. is we are not Trading a top 5 Franchise D for something that doesn't make our team better.

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Old
07-20-2011, 01:32 PM
  #88
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[QUOTE=RaiderDoug;35202507]
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post

I can play that game too!

In 2 seasons, Jonathan Blum will be a legit top 15 D-man. He was as impressive as any D-man on the Preds in his short stint with the big club and in the playoffs. He's on pace to have a 40 points if he played the full season (and that doesn't count any improvement due to experience/natural growth of the player). He singlehandedly allowed us to give away Cody Franson. At worst, he's a better Dan Hamhuis. We might have another Ryan Suter.

And we still don't want Edler for Weber, as he'd be the #3 d-man on our team.

Give us scoring, or we shop somewhere else.
What has Blum done to be considered even close to a top 15 defenceman, In Edler's case he was voted the 20 th best defenceman on HF, the jump from 20 ro 15 isn't to drastic, heck I think if Edler didn't get injured last year many would have considered him to be a Norris Candidate.

And no Jonathan Blum is nowhere near as good as Dan Hamhuis right now. Also after you trade Weber, Edler would be your number 2 defenceman he is easily better than anyone not named Suter.

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07-20-2011, 01:51 PM
  #89
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[QUOTE=Bruno Mars;35211487]
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post

What has Blum done to be considered even close to a top 15 defenceman, In Edler's case he was voted the 20 th best defenceman on HF, the jump from 20 ro 15 isn't to drastic, heck I think if Edler didn't get injured last year many would have considered him to be a Norris Candidate.

And no Jonathan Blum is nowhere near as good as Dan Hamhuis right now. Also after you trade Weber, Edler would be your number 2 defenceman he is easily better than anyone not named Suter.
Wow, he's voted top 20 on the HF boards so it's so? If all of us were so smart we'd all be GM's but last time I checked, I'm not and don't know anyone else around here that is either.

We all have opinions and we're all entitled to them. We all know our own players the best and tend to over accentuate their abilities. Is Edler a good player, sure. Is he one of the best in the league at this point, debatable. It depends on what you value from a defenseman and what team he plays for. It's like us Nashville fans comparing Suter and Weber and trying to figure out who's a better player. I'm sure you guys do the same with the Sedins.

Would Edler be a nice addition to Nashville in a trade for Weber. He sure would but like others have said, defense is not something Nashville is in need of. We need a top 3 forward and nothing less in return for Weber. Vancouver and Nashville don't make good trading partners.

And for whatever it's worth, Kesler was a beast in the VAN-NAS series. He was a one man wrecking crew. However, Weber and Suter totally shut down the Sedins. Don't know why I had to post that.

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07-20-2011, 01:57 PM
  #90
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[QUOTE=glenngineer;35212181]
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Originally Posted by Bruno Mars View Post

Wow, he's voted top 20 on the HF boards so it's so? If all of us were so smart we'd all be GM's but last time I checked, I'm not and don't know anyone else around here that is either.


It's not only that, if Edler didn't get injured last year he would have been 4 th in scoring for defenceman, that would have also meant he would be a serious contender for the Norris.

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07-20-2011, 02:16 PM
  #91
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[QUOTE=Bruno Mars;35212399]
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It's not only that, if Edler didn't get injured last year he would have been 4 th in scoring for defenceman, that would have also meant he would be a serious contender for the Norris.
If Suter isn't out for a dozen games he's a serious contender for the Norris as well. It took him a while to shake off the rust from his knee injury but he was on his way to around 50 points as well. Injuries are part of the game and to say a player would've done this or that is silly. Maybe he doesn't get hurt when he did but playing in further games he does get injured and injured worse. Anything can happen but to say he would've done this or that is moot because he didn't do it, plain and simple.

I could say what if Lombardi doesn't get hurt for Nashville and try to predict what his impact might have been. So many ifs in sports. Both teams had good seasons. Lots of good play from both rosters. Who knows what happens if guys stay healthy. It's all a crap shoot at the end of the day.

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07-20-2011, 02:22 PM
  #92
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the team elected for arbitration I believe it's Weber's choice between a 1 year or 2 year contract at the decided amount. It would be in Weber's best interest to elect for a 2 year contract, this way even if he DOES decide to re-sign in Nashville he has greater bargaining power.

Either way, Weber will be a Predator for atleast another year. If he's having some second thoughts at this point as to whether or not he wants to sign in Nashville long term those may go away if Nashville can string together another decent post season run. If not, Weber can be traded next offseason if they choose too move him.
You're correct. I forgot about the player being able to request the length of the deal since it's team elected arbitration. I was just responding to the idea that Weber will be a UFA at the end of his deal if it gets to arbitration. That isn't necessarily the case. He definitely won't be a UFA in 2012.

Whether Weber elects for a one year or two year deal I don't think it matters. Yes he will have greater bargaining power if he is on a deal that carries him to UFA status, but it's Shea Weber and it's the only superstar not named Rinne the Preds have. He has all of the bargaining power in the world right now really.

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07-20-2011, 02:39 PM
  #93
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Wow, he's voted top 20 on the HF boards so it's so? If all of us were so smart we'd all be GM's but last time I checked, I'm not and don't know anyone else around here that is either.
How about Edler being a 24min/night player (highest on the team) playing in every situation on the #1 team in the league that just finished with 117 points - 10 points ahead of their closest competition - and on the league's #1 PP team (where he was a regular on the #1 unit until his injury) and the league's #3 PK team (which was #1 in the league before he got injured), the #1 GF team and the #1 GA team?

Does being the top dman on the league's top team in almost every category also not mean anything?

Edler is a #1 dman... And he did that on the league's best team. That's gotta count for something, no?

Some of you guys make it sound like he's just a decent dman - some even listing him as the 4th best dman on his own team. Do you not realize that he plays more than any other dman on the team for a reason? Do you not realize that he's playing a huge role on a team that dominated almost every statistical category last season. Edler is a #1 dman because he plays over 24mins/night in every situation on a top end contender. This isn't some average team where he's simply the best out of a mediocre group. He's playing huge minutes in every situation on a dominant team. Anyone suggesting that he's just a #2 dman just haven't followed him enough... And those that are suggesting that he's the 4th best dman on the Canucks last year - behind Ehrhoff, Hamhuis and Bieksa simply have no clue about the Canucks and their defense situation.

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07-20-2011, 03:04 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by lemieux66lemieux View Post
So you are saying Alex Edler is better than:

Chris Pronger
Nicklas Lidstrom
Keith Yandle
Drew Doughty
Jack Johnson
Christian Erhoff
Dan Boyle
Zdeno Chara
Shea Weber
Tobias Enstrom
Dan Hamhuis
Ryan Suter
Kris Letang
Brent Seabrook
Duncan Keith
Brent Burns
Nicklas Kronwall
Marc Staal
Mike Green
Kevin Bieksa
Robyn Regehr

He might be better then a few of them but he is not top 15 in the league. Maybe top 20 and im probably leaving a few players off the list.
Haha, aww that is just cute coming from a Calgary fan.

As for the trade, no thanks from the Canucks. I would rather Edler and his 'average' defensive game for a fraction of the cost than Weber's seven million behemoth. For those demanding Kesler that is simply laughable, especially the one post suggesting Kesler and Edler for Weber. We are not in the market of making your team better whilst dismantling our own.

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07-20-2011, 03:14 PM
  #95
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I didnt say Edler cant become a top 15 D-man, but as of right now he isnt top 15, maybe top 20. Regehr was for defensive aspects only.

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07-20-2011, 03:22 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
it might be all that gets Nashville's attention, but it will NEVER happen.

Do people here completely ignore the value of contracts in determining the overall value of a player?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Kesler, locked up to 5 more years at $5mill/yr is worth more than Weber as a RFA, with the potential to be a UFA soon.

Until Weber signs a contract, and one that doesn't hurt his value overall as an asset, Kesler is the more valuable asset. No team that has an asset like Kesler locked up to that contract is going to deal him for Weber with his contract situation.

on the ice, contracts not considered at all, Weber is the more valuable player... in a salary cap league with a low UFA age, Kesler signed up long-term at below market value, on a contract that takes him through his prime years, and expires right after, is worth more than even a great RFA dman who's next cap hit and contract length is unknown.

Weber is arguable the best defenseman in the NHL i think ur wrong

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07-20-2011, 03:25 PM
  #97
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Wow I guess all of us Canuck fans are very stupid off your list as Edler isn't a number 1 on our own team... He was our #4 D according to you. Edler is our Number 1 and he is in the Top 15 in the League.
Better than Edler.
Chris Pronger - atm yes Pronger is better but Edler keeps going he could be just as good as Pronger (w/o the discipline issue)
Nicklas Lidstrom - Not as good as a HOF'er like Nick
Drew Doughty - Doughty is in a specail breed of Defenceman.
Zdeno Chara - Chara is a beast
Shea Weber - See Chara.
Kris Letang - Had a breakout year one of best 2 way D in the league
Duncan Keith - Former Norris Winner and very good D.

In the same class arguments can be made for either to be ahead or behind Edler
Keith Yandle - is better offensively defensively I give the edge to Edler both have room to improve and can I would say it is a draw atm.
Ryan Suter - Defensively one of the best in NHL. Offensively mid pack and a very good D.
Brent Seabrook - See Suter.
Marc Staal - Same as Suter and Seabrook not as good offensively as either
Brent Burns - Edler and Burns are very similar D.
Nicklas Kronwall - is a very good D does a lot of things good but not a lot is he elite at.

Not as good as Edler
Jack Johnson - JMFJ is good but not as good as Edler is right now.
Christian Erhoff - Ehroff is slightly better than Edler offensively. Edler is way better defensively. So Edler is better.
Dan Boyle - See Christian Ehroff (just better offensively than Ehroff)
Mike Green - Is just like Dan Boyle.
Tobias Enstrom - See Ehroff
Dan Hamhuis - Better Defensively and more consistent atm. But Offensively Edler wins by a fair margin.
Kevin Bieksa - Good Defenseman but way more inconsistent than Edler
Robyn Regehr - Needs to find if he is still an elite D. He is good but foot speed has brought a lot of issues to Regehr.
You MAJORLY underrated Boyle

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Old
07-20-2011, 03:34 PM
  #98
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Weber is arguable the best defenseman in the NHL i think ur wrong
If Weber was signed to a similar contract then yes Weber would be more valuable, but as of right now since Weber isn't even under contract Kesler hold more value.

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Originally Posted by lemieux66lemieux View Post
I didnt say Edler cant become a top 15 D-man, but as of right now he isnt top 15, maybe top 20. Regehr was for defensive aspects only.
Can you explain why guys like Bieksa, Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Johnson and Green are on that list, Edler is better then all of those guys handily. Robyn Regher shouldn't be anywhere near that list

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07-20-2011, 03:41 PM
  #99
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Weber is arguable the best defenseman in the NHL i think ur wrong
Lidstrom is the best dman in the NHL. Do you think his value as an asset will ignore the fact that he's a UFA after one season?

Contracts impact asset value, arguably more than any of factor in determining a player's worth.

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Old
07-20-2011, 03:50 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by lemieux66lemieux View Post
I didnt say Edler cant become a top 15 D-man, but as of right now he isnt top 15, maybe top 20. Regehr was for defensive aspects only.
Yes, and your list screams Canucks hatred. On Regehr's best day he is not on this list.

Keith Yandle*
Jack Johnson
Dan Boyle
Tobias Enstrom*
Dan Hamhuis
Kris Letang**
Brent Seabrook*
Brent Burns
Nicklas Kronwall*
Marc Staal
Mike Green
Kevin Bieksa
Robyn Regehr

* = Debatable, with a decent case being made for either side
** = Only one breakout season. Judgment reserved until proven consistency.

With those exceptions aside, Edler is better than everyone else mentioned above.

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