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The Brule/Kopitar Myth

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Old
07-20-2011, 06:34 PM
  #26
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I definitely don't claim that Brule was ever rated lower than Kopitar, because it's entirely not true. I saw Gilbert Brule play numerous times in his draft year, and he undoubtedly looked like a sure bet to be a Jeremy Roenick type player in the NHL. I definitely pumped him up, though after he was drafted and saw NHL ice time, it was obvious to me that he was rushed along, and that he surely wasn't ready to be at such a high level.

The thing that stings me the most is the quote I saw from Anze Kopitar leading into the draft that said ... "Columbus would be perfect!"

I would love to think back and wonder what could have been with Kopitar in our lineup - but it's futile really. We could do the same thing about Evgeny Nabokov in the expansion draft.

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07-20-2011, 07:27 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhydoesCanadahateus View Post
Ok everyone I'm sorry, I started this. I have learned my lesson. I will never listen to people ever again because they lie.
It's not a big deal. This position was repeated many times before you posted it. I just felt it was time to set the record straight.

Here's the straight scoop. MacLean failed as GM of the Jackets. It wasn't because of the Brule' pick. It was because he did a poor job managing hockey operations. Either he made bad picks or did a poor job of developing them. Doesn't matter, the team was and still is considered a laughing stock in the hockey world. Maybe Howson's moves will change that. We will see soon enough.

To give the devil his due, I also think MacLean did a very good job with marketing and sales. I thought game ops seemed better when he was running the ship.

He was just a lousy at hockey operations.

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07-21-2011, 10:58 AM
  #28
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my .02

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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Here's the straight scoop. MacLean failed as GM of the Jackets. It wasn't because of the Brule' pick. It was because he did a poor job managing hockey operations. Either he made bad picks or did a poor job of developing them. Doesn't matter, the team was and still is considered a laughing stock in the hockey world. Maybe Howson's moves will change that. We will see soon enough.

To give the devil his due, I also think MacLean did a very good job with marketing and sales. I thought game ops seemed better when he was running the ship.

He was just a lousy at hockey operations.
All franchises struggle in the beginning. Many quite older than Columbus still haven't won the cup. MacLean accomplished a lot here in Columbus, but he had way to much authority in the organIzation and he didn't stick to his original plan. He was going to build from the net out Tugnutt/ Denis 1st pick Klesla, then from his second pick on that first year in Kyle McLeod.. Doug never drafted defensemen high again. Contrast that to Nashville who is very sound on the blue line & has had better results.

PS John Moore should be evaluated in 3 more years..way to early to give pass/fail.


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07-21-2011, 11:50 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
All franchises struggle in the beginning. Many quite older than Columbus still haven't won the cup. MacLean accomplished a lot here in Columbus, but he had way to much authority in the organIzation and he didn't stick to his original plan. He was going to build from the net out Tugnutt/ Denis 1st pick Klesla, then from his second pick on that first year in Kyle McLeod.. Doug never drafted defensemen high again. Contrast that to Nashville who is very sound on the blue line & has had better results.

PS John Moore should be evaluated in 3 more years..way to early to give pass/fail.
McLeod was actually the CBJ's second pick in 01, Ben Knopp was the CBJ second draft pick in 2000.


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07-21-2011, 02:01 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
All franchises struggle in the beginning. Many quite older than Columbus still haven't won the cup. MacLean accomplished a lot here in Columbus, but he had way to much authority in the organIzation and he didn't stick to his original plan. He was going to build from the net out Tugnutt/ Denis 1st pick Klesla, then from his second pick on that first year in Kyle McLeod.. Doug never drafted defensemen high again. Contrast that to Nashville who is very sound on the blue line & has had better results.

PS John Moore should be evaluated in 3 more years..way to early to give pass/fail.
Win the Cup??

Geez I just mean respectable. This team still hasn't attained respectability, much less a Cup!

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07-21-2011, 03:59 PM
  #31
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I hear ya leek..

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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Win the Cup??

Geez I just mean respectable. This team still hasn't attained respectability, much less a Cup!
and it is a pretty big difference of opinion, but I am reminded of that commercial that shows winners holding the SC and they are speechless. Realizing most players never win it doesn't mean it shouldn't be the goal each and every year.

Carolina won the Cup, Tampa Bay won it, infact that Carolina team was almost the Columbus franchise.

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07-21-2011, 04:04 PM
  #32
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Good catch..

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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
McLeod was actually the CBJ's second pick in 01, Ben Knopp was the CBJ second draft pick in 2000.
tells ya how memorable the draft was after Klesla. To many of those draft picks were wasted trying to hit a home run rather than just acquiring solid hockey players. Ben Knopp was taken in Calgary because McLean wanted to make the Moose Jaw crowd happy.

One of the best Sergei Moyzakin never played a game in North America. What a friggin waste.

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07-21-2011, 04:41 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
tells ya how memorable the draft was after Klesla. To many of those draft picks were wasted trying to hit a home run rather than just acquiring solid hockey players. Ben Knopp was taken in Calgary because McLean wanted to make the Moose Jaw crowd happy.

One of the best Sergei Moyzakin never played a game in North America. What a friggin waste.
From what I understand, Mozyakin was picked in the 9th round largely because that was a known risk with him.

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07-21-2011, 05:24 PM
  #34
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Yep..

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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
From what I understand, Mozyakin was picked in the 9th round largely because that was a known risk with him.
he was undersized, but by the time CBJ mgmt showed interest he was already a star in the KHL. At that point we couldn't offer enough. There was a small window where he may have come over w/ Z but it never worked out.

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07-21-2011, 06:58 PM
  #35
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Wasted draft picks are the biggest problem this franchise has always had. How many times did we see Dougie Mac say "First line center!" or "Top pairing defenseman!"...?

It kills me to see some of the solid players that were drafted shortly after we took guys like Jackman and MacLeod ... imagine, had we selected Mike Cammalleri or Jason Pominville with either one of our second rounders in that draft.

Hindsight is always 20/20 though. I know at the time some of the guys we took were very exciting, and we all thought/hoped they would work out. Unfortunately, I see much of the same from our 2010 second rounders (Smith, Straka) ... I still think for at least one more draft, we have struck out in the second round.

Hopefully, drafting guys like Boone Jenner can start to reverse that trend for us. Sometimes you just need to take the player with maybe a little bit lower of a ceiling (especially when you didn't have a first rounder, haha)

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07-21-2011, 08:57 PM
  #36
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The thing which sticks out to me in all of this the most is a player's "ceiling", and this was important with the Kopitar/Brule debate. I agree that it seems that too often the CBJ staff will just draft the player who is currently the best available in regard to skills, rather than who has the most potential.

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07-21-2011, 09:27 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feicht View Post
The thing which sticks out to me in all of this the most is a player's "ceiling", and this was important with the Kopitar/Brule debate. I agree that it seems that too often the CBJ staff will just draft the player who is currently the best available in regard to skills, rather than who has the most potential.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you mean they draft the guy who is the better player at the time, knowing someone else has more "talent"?

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07-21-2011, 09:30 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by GoChiefsGo View Post
Wasted draft picks are the biggest problem this franchise has always had. How many times did we see Dougie Mac say "First line center!" or "Top pairing defenseman!"...?

It kills me to see some of the solid players that were drafted shortly after we took guys like Jackman and MacLeod ... imagine, had we selected Mike Cammalleri or Jason Pominville with either one of our second rounders in that draft.

Hindsight is always 20/20 though. I know at the time some of the guys we took were very exciting, and we all thought/hoped they would work out. Unfortunately, I see much of the same from our 2010 second rounders (Smith, Straka) ... I still think for at least one more draft, we have struck out in the second round.

Hopefully, drafting guys like Boone Jenner can start to reverse that trend for us. Sometimes you just need to take the player with maybe a little bit lower of a ceiling (especially when you didn't have a first rounder, haha)
I heard a lot more about our draft picks's "intangibles" this year. Seems that the scouting staff finally got it into their head that you need skill AND a good attitude.
Two that come to mind immediately are Calvert and from what i have heard, TJ Tynan who are both very hard workers. This is a big difference from Mclean.. didnt he pick somebody who said that no matter who picked him, he wouldnt sign with them?

Boone Jenner= Captain of CBJ after Nash.

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07-21-2011, 11:34 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by gojackets1 View Post
I heard a lot more about our draft picks's "intangibles" this year. Seems that the scouting staff finally got it into their head that you need skill AND a good attitude.
Two that come to mind immediately are Calvert and from what i have heard, TJ Tynan who are both very hard workers. This is a big difference from Mclean.. didnt he pick somebody who said that no matter who picked him, he wouldnt sign with them?

Boone Jenner= Captain of CBJ after Nash.
A winning attitude should definitely be the #1 priority of any team at the draft table. The lesser skilled team with the will to win will beat the higher skilled team that doesn't care, 99.9% of the time.

While I agree with your sentiment there, I think Boone Jenner is a long ways away from the NHL, especially in a captain type role. I saw a lot of the same upside in Brian Sutherby - and while he churned out an NHL career, he wound up nowhere near the level people thought he would. Attitude alone won't do it, there has to be some skillset there to help him along as well. Next year will go a long way in determining what kind of player Boone Jenner could be at the next level. He's a guy that could go either way for us.

We are getting a bit off-topic, however, so I'll leave it at that. We can continue that discussion over on the prospects board

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07-21-2011, 11:47 PM
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As the Dispatch tells it, our scouts wanted to pick Kopitar over Brule, but they were over ruled by GMDM.

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07-21-2011, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by knucklepuck28 View Post
As the Dispatch tells it, our scouts wanted to pick Kopitar over Brule, but they were over ruled by GMDM.
So many different stories! My head hurts!

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07-22-2011, 12:01 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you mean they draft the guy who is the better player at the time, knowing someone else has more "talent"?
I don't think they did it to intentionally hurt the franchise obviously But I think earlier in the history it was more important for the team to have players who (they thought) were ready to play right away and this means they would draft the best player at the time. Only problem was, it didn't usually work out well

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07-22-2011, 02:42 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by GoChiefsGo View Post
A winning attitude should definitely be the #1 priority of any team at the draft table. The lesser skilled team with the will to win will beat the higher skilled team that doesn't care, 99.9% of the time.
A winning attitude can be developed and lost. I'd rather have someone with excellent hockey sense who's been beaten down playing for Rouyn-Noranda this year than someone with lesser sense on Saint John. To me, a winning attitude is nothing but sustained confidence, and by putting someone in a position where their work pays off starts the snowball rolling.

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07-22-2011, 08:25 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knucklepuck28 View Post
As the Dispatch tells it, our scouts wanted to pick Kopitar over Brule, but they were over ruled by GMDM.
It's not likely we will ever know the whole story. My understanding is that's not exactly accurate. There's a reason why one of the most reasonable posters here, Skraut, started a "Dispatch Mind Control" thread a year or two ago.

I understand they had expected Brule would be gone when their turn came, so they expected to take Kopitar. When Brule was surprisingly available they took the player they and pretty much everyone else had ranked much higher.

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07-22-2011, 09:02 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
It's not likely we will ever know the whole story. My understanding is that's not exactly accurate. There's a reason why one of the most reasonable posters here, Skraut, started a "Dispatch Mind Control" thread a year or two ago.
Oh good grief. Please don't go there.... I've seen plenty of "I'll put wild speculation in a reasonable sounding way".

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I understand they had expected Brule would be gone when their turn came, so they expected to take Kopitar. When Brule was surprisingly available they took the player they and pretty much everyone else had ranked much higher.
Great.... Propagate more speculation to prove your point? Is this leek mind control? Seriously, I've enjoyed your postings over the years and I'm not trying to offend you. But, when someone spins logic and tries to defend it was the most reasonable path, that's when my suspicion level rises.

You've had your say, you admit you can't know for sure what actually happened. You are getting trying to set the record "straight" without any actual proof.

You are trying to lay out a line of your own self imposed logic in an attempt to make you hypothesis to seem to be the most sane and logical, and, therefore, the most likely to be true. You are trying to sound reasonable with your speculation.

We get it. You could be right. You've set up a chain of evidence that suggests that Brule would have been the choice of the scouts anyway. However, it doesn't prove anything and it certainly doesn't end the debate.

This is about as convincing to me as scientists with "Oh we have global cooling! Oh wait, no it's global warming! No, no.... It's climate change! See here's plenty of scientific data to prove it! I mean, the climate changes on a minute by minute basis, you can't actually prove us wrong! It's too cold? Global warming! Too hot? Global warming! Bad weather? Global warming! Good weather? We have a respite until we all die from climate change! No, no... We aren't benefiting financially from this!" or doctors "OMG, don't eat fat - you'll get fat! Oh wait, you've loaded up on carbs and you are still getting fat and having heart attacks? My bad.... What reasonable sounding crap can I throw at you next because I can't admit there are things that I actually don't understand? Eat plenty of whole grains! Wait, ranchers feed grains to cows to fatten them up? Well they aren't humans! Trust us! I mean me, your general practitioner, hasn't actually done any scientific studies myself, but I went to school and the data from the study in 1948 couldn't be wrong!". "I mean, don't we just sound reasonable?!"

For the record, I don't care what Dougie said happened (I think I remember someone commenting that he denied it). We've caught him in a fair number of misrepresentations over the years.


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07-22-2011, 09:28 AM
  #46
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For the record, I don't care what Dougie said happened (I think I remember someone commenting that he denied it). We've caught him in a fair number of misrepresentations over the years.
Maybe they could set up a chat with Donnie Boyd and ask him about the decision making on player selections. Certainly would be entertaining depending on how open he would be. Specifically interested in the picks regarding Pascal, Picard, Zherdev & Brule. The Director of Scouting for 10 years... for that matter did they contemplate moving up or was Rusty there pick all along.

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07-22-2011, 09:33 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
Maybe they could set up a chat with Donnie Boyd and ask him about the decision making on player selections. Certainly would be entertaining depending on how open he would be. Specifically interested in the picks regarding Pascal, Picard, Zherdev & Brule. The Director of Scouting for 10 years... for that matter did they contemplate moving up or was Rusty there pick all along.
HF mods? What a joke. Those ********** can barely put a sentence together.

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07-22-2011, 09:37 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
A winning attitude can be developed and lost. I'd rather have someone with excellent hockey sense who's been beaten down playing for Rouyn-Noranda this year than someone with lesser sense on Saint John. To me, a winning attitude is nothing but sustained confidence, and by putting someone in a position where their work pays off starts the snowball rolling.
I agree with you to an extent here. You are right that attitude can come and go ... a case in point could be a guy like Mike Richards, who went from being "captain everything" in Philadelphia to being dealt away for prospects and picks.

I guess a better summation of my point would be having to choose between a guy whose ceiling is say - 80 points in the NHL, and a guy whose ceiling is 60 points but maybe has a stronger interview/personality, was the captain of their junior team, etc.

I truly didn't mean for us to go out and pick guys ignoring their talent level and going only for their attitude. There's something that separates first round talent from, say, fourth round talent, and it's certainly not always that they are good locker room guys, haha.

Maybe a good comparison is Gabriel Landeskog - who went second, vs. a guy like Sean Couturier, who "fell" to eighth. Couturier certainly may be more skilled, and definitely has some very intriguing tangibles ... but Landeskog has the "it" factor the Colorado Avalanche wanted.

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07-22-2011, 09:39 AM
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HF mods? What a joke. Those ********** can barely put a sentence together.

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07-22-2011, 09:42 AM
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HF mods? What a joke. Those ********** can barely put a sentence together.
Finally somebody agrees with me.

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