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Old
07-23-2011, 10:54 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That's rich, coming from the guy who is desperate to make everyone believe that Carle doesn't have deficiencies in his own end.
This is another inaccurate statement, you've made. I have never said that Carle doesn't have any weaknesses to his game. In fact I've discussed them on this very thread on the previous pages.


Do I need to provide a link for you to those posts? It's not hard to look back and read it.

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07-23-2011, 10:57 AM
  #152
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This is another inaccurate statement, you've made. I have never said that Carle doesn't have any weaknesses to his game. In fact I've discussed them on this very thread on the previous pages.
So you admit Carle is not necessarily the most reliable player defensively?

You admit that without Pronger he would likely, and has on many occasions, get made a fool of with the consequences being a goal against?

But you still want to give him 4.50m?

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07-23-2011, 10:57 AM
  #153
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This is another inaccurate statement, you've made. I have never said that Carle doesn't have any weaknesses to his game. In fact I've discussed them on this very thread on the previous pages.


Do I need to provide a link for you to those posts? It's not hard to look back and read it.
Every time ANYONE tries to discuss ANY shortcoming in Carle's game you go ballistic. It's clear you GROSSLY overvalue Carle.

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07-23-2011, 11:06 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Every time ANYONE tries to discuss ANY shortcoming in Carle's game you go ballistic. It's clear you GROSSLY overvalue Carle.
Were going in circles here. Again, your inaccurate. I reply and refute when opinions are offered that aren't backed up by the facts, and when there is a clear bias towards Carle as a player. And refute posts such as yours, that are simply fantasy about Carle as a player. There is not one point where I have gone "ballistic". I have calmly and intelligently offered an informed opinion backed up by the facts on Carle as a player.
I don't grossly over value Carle as a player. Which is another statement you can't back up with any facts. I view Carle exactly for the player that he is. Which is a solid top 4 puck moving D man. No more, no less.

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07-23-2011, 11:10 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So you admit Carle is not necessarily the most reliable player defensively?

You admit that without Pronger he would likely, and has on many occasions, get made a fool of with the consequences being a goal against?

But you still want to give him 4.50m?
LOL I don't see where I admit anything to that effect. I've said multiple times that Carle is a reliable player defensively. And credible analysts, the stats, quotes from the Coaching staff, how he is used as a player, all support that informed opinion.
Also Carle's numbers were very good when Pronger was injured. He would likely be made a fool of without Pronger? Pretty funny. I expect more from you than that. That's fantasy. Carle is a good player. With or without Pronger. That's proven.

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07-23-2011, 11:11 AM
  #156
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The issue is, at no point have I been wrong. At no point have you proven any of us wrong. I threw loads of stats at you two months ago, and you outright ignored them or dismissed them, and it's cute that you are trying to use similar stats to support your arguments now. You don't prove people wrong, you just make extremely arrogant posts calling other people wrong without substantially proving such.

I see Carle for what he is. He's a decent defenseman who can put up assists on a team with great offensive talent, who is tolerable in his own end but prone to mistakes, and who shouldn't be trusted in crucial defensive situations. A number 4 dman at most, with the potential to perhaps be better if he can put it together.

Reading your posts, one would think he's Chris Pronger or Nik Lidstrom.

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07-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I don't see where I admit anything to that effect.
Neither did I, which is probably the most disturbing issue at hand here since it's the truth.

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I've said multiple times that Carle is a reliable player defensively.
Which he isn't.

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And credible analysts,
No...journalists writing fluff pieces.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
the stats,
Which have been heavily padded playing next to Pronger.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
quotes from the Coaching staff,
Who would never, ever, ever, ever think of lying to you.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
how he is used as a player,
You mean the fact that he plays in a completely different role when Pronger isn't around to cover for him?

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
all support that informed opinion.
So far you're batting 0/4.

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Also Carle's numbers were very good when Pronger was injured.
Because he was being placed in a different role, one where it'd be easier for him to succeed since Pronger wasn't around to let him float around and pinch in the offensive zone to his heart's content.

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He would likely be made a fool of without Pronger?
Well, I'm not exactly aiming for the stars by believing that seeing as how it's happened quite often.

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Pretty funny. I expect more from you than that. That's fantasy. Carle is a good player. With or without Pronger. That's proven.
Carle is a good player. He has his strengths and weaknesses.

However, Carle is not a great player, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

You find me a truly defensively astute defensemen with average size, solid skating ability, great stickwork, and a Carle's offensive ability, passing, and outlet ability then I'll gladly drop 5.00m/year on him. Until that day happens, I'll settle for Carle under 4.00m because Carle will never be "astute defensively."

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07-23-2011, 11:23 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The issue is, at no point have I been wrong. At no point have you proven any of us wrong. I threw loads of stats at you two months ago, and you outright ignored them or dismissed them, and it's cute that you are trying to use similar stats to support your arguments now. You don't prove people wrong, you just make extremely arrogant posts calling other people wrong without substantially proving such.
That's impossible. The stats are overwhelmingly in favor of my opinion on Carle. All of the information available supports my opinion. Your living in some kind of fantasy world here. Every metric available supports that Carle is a very good player. It's irrefutable. Every metric available on Carle proves you wrong. Whether it's a stat, opinions from credible analysts, opinions from his Coaches and teammates.

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I see Carle for what he is. He's a decent defenseman who can put up assists on a team with great offensive talent, who is tolerable in his own end but prone to mistakes, and who shouldn't be trusted in crucial defensive situations. A number 4 dman at most, with the potential to perhaps be better if he can put it together.
He's not prone to mistakes. He does make mistakes as any player does. He is reliable in his own end. The times he makes the right play far outnumber the times he doesn't. Or he wouoldn't be used the way he is. And I would not label him as being a top defensive player. And he is and has been trusted in crucial defensive situations by his Coaches. That's a fact.

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Reading your posts, one would think he's Chris Pronger or Nik Lidstrom.
That's your hangup. And your incorrect interpretation of my posts. There is no where in any of my posts where I have described, suggested, or in any way compared Carle to Lidstrom or Pronger

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07-23-2011, 11:29 AM
  #159
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That's impossible. The stats are overwhelmingly in favor of my opinion on Carle. All of the information available supports my opinion. Your living in some kind of fantasy world here. Every metric available supports that Carle is a very good player. It's irrefutable. Every metric available on Carle proves you wrong. Whether it's a stat, opinions from credible analysts, opinions from his Coaches and teammates.
Haha, except for all those stats I threw at you that suggest he isn't that great defensively that you dismissed by saying "Bill Meltzer disagrees."



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He's not prone to mistakes. He does make mistakes as any player does. He is reliable in his own end. The times he makes the right play far outnumber the times he doesn't. Or he wouoldn't be used the way he is. And I would not label him as being a top defensive player. And he is and has been trusted in crucial defensive situations by his Coaches. That's a fact.
He repeats the same mistakes. People are learning how to take advantage of him, and they do so. The playoffs were a good example of that. He got shredded, and I guarantee that opposing coaches looked at video and told their players "he is the weak link."

He got trusted in crucial defensive situations because Pronger was hurt.


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That's your hangup. And your incorrect interpretation of my posts. There is no where in any of my posts where I have described, suggested, or in any way compared Carle to Lidstrom or Pronger
Well, when I or anyone else tries to indicate that Carle has ANY specific weakness, you insist it doesn't exist. At the end of the day, you dismiss all his weaknesses while maintaining that he's great at scoring.

Scratch Pronger and Lidstrom...reading your posts, one would think he's Bobby Orr. Great at scoring, strong in his own end.

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07-23-2011, 11:38 AM
  #160
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Neither did I, which is probably the most disturbing issue at hand here since it's the truth.
There is no credible information you can offer to back up that it's the truth.


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Which he isn't.
He absolutely is, and all the information available supports that.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

No...journalists writing fluff pieces.
Direct quotes from Hockey professionals, on Carle as a player, are not fluff.


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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Which have been heavily padded playing next to Pronger.
Incorrect. Check out his numbers this past Season when Pronger was out.


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Who would never, ever, ever, ever think of lying to you.
About as dumb of a reply as you could make. I guess that's why they play him 20+ minutes a night. Because the statements the Coaches make are lies. LOL


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You mean the fact that he plays in a completely different role when Pronger isn't around to cover for him?
His role is the same. Top 4 defenseman that plays in all situations. Are the other defenseman's role on the team changed when Pronger is out of the lineup. Another silly statement.


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So far you're batting 0/4.
I am huh? All of the facts can be substantiated. LOL

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Because he was being placed in a different role, one where it'd be easier for him to succeed since Pronger wasn't around to let him float around and pinch in the offensive zone to his heart's content.
Obviously your unaware of the style and system of play that Laviolette employs and that defenseman aggressively pinching is by design and what the Coach wants his D man to do. This is a desperate reach and grasp by you Chris. So Carle's numbers being very good when Pronger was out of the lineup had nothing to do with Carle's actual play? LOL


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Well, I'm not exactly aiming for the stars by believing that seeing as how it's happened quite often.
The facts disagree with you. I guess that's how he would up a +30 and led the NHL in plus games. Because he got embarrased quite often on the ice. I guess that's why the Flyers Coaching staff plays him 20+ minutes a night. They enjoy having a defenseman embarrased quite often on the ice. This is pretty funny, thanks for the comedy.


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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Carle is a good player. He has his strengths and weaknesses.

However, Carle is not a great player, which is what you seem to be suggesting.
I have never once come close to calling or insinuating that Carle is a great player. In fact I've made statements on this very thread stating the opposite. I'd be glad to point them out to you if neccessary.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You find me a truly defensively astute defensemen with average size, solid skating ability, great stickwork, and a Carle's offensive ability, passing, and outlet ability then I'll gladly drop 5.00m/year on him. Until that day happens, I'll settle for Carle under 4.00m because Carle will never be "astute defensively."
I wouldn't drop 5M a year on Carle. I don't think he's worth that. Carle is reliable in his own end. That's a fact.

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07-23-2011, 11:40 AM
  #161
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Carle is more reliable in his own end than Kaberle, but that isn't saying much.

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07-23-2011, 11:42 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's impossible. The stats are overwhelmingly in favor of my opinion on Carle. All of the information available supports my opinion. Your living in some kind of fantasy world here. Every metric available supports that Carle is a very good player. It's irrefutable. Every metric available on Carle proves you wrong. Whether it's a stat, opinions from credible analysts, opinions from his Coaches and teammates.
Everything someone offers in defense of their opinions need not be a derivation of or allusion to someone else's work. Beef has laid eyes on Carle. He is allowed his own assessment and original thoughts on the topic and his ability to discuss and defend them are enough to give them as much credibility as citing someone else's blog. The fact that there are a lot of people that agree with him also suggest he might be onto something. Duhockey has already pointed out that there won't be any sources of a statistical nature to show just how effective or ineffective Carle is. Carle could be a complete trainwreck defensively (which he isn't) and those blogs and metrics wouldn't be out there other than the usual, basic +/- stats.

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07-23-2011, 11:43 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Haha, except for all those stats I threw at you that suggest he isn't that great defensively that you dismissed by saying "Bill Meltzer disagrees."
I've never once stated that Carle is great defensively. I've only repeatedly stated that Carle is reliable in his own end. And you haven't provided any stats to prove that Carle isn't reliable in his own end. Just exactly what are these mystery stats that you refer to? LOL




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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He repeats the same mistakes. People are learning how to take advantage of him, and they do so. The playoffs were a good example of that. He got shredded, and I guarantee that opposing coaches looked at video and told their players "he is the weak link."
No he doesn't. If that was true, he wouldn't be put out there time and again in key situations. You guarantee that huh? LOL. Good for you. Another statement you can't back up.

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He got trusted in crucial defensive situations because Pronger was hurt.
Is that why? He's trusted in crucial defensive situation when Pronger isn't hurt. I know, that's only because he is paired with Pronger.



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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, when I or anyone else tries to indicate that Carle has ANY specific weakness, you insist it doesn't exist. At the end of the day, you dismiss all his weaknesses while maintaining that he's great at scoring.
There are clear posts on this thread by me, discussing Carle's weaknesses. Most of the weaknesses that you've posted are simply fantasy.

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Scratch Pronger and Lidstrom...reading your posts, one would think he's Bobby Orr. Great at scoring, strong in his own end.
Again, that's an innacurate interpretation of my statements by you. That's not my problem.

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Everything someone offers in defense of their opinions need not be a derivation of or allusion to someone else's work. Beef has laid eyes on Carle. He is allowed his own assessment and original thoughts on the topic and his ability to discuss and defend them are enough to give them as much credibility as citing someone else's blog. The fact that there are a lot of people that agree with him also suggest he might be onto something. Duhockey has already pointed out that there won't be any sources of a statistical nature to show just how effective or ineffective Carle is. Carle could be a complete trainwreck defensively (which he isn't) and those blogs and metrics wouldn't be out there other than the usual, basic +/- stats.
Offer me some facts that back those opinion up. It hasn't happened. And it won't because they can't. He is allowed his own assesment and original thoughts on the topic. Where have I said he isn't? There's a lot of people that don't agree with him also. The facts simply are against him, and for the opinion I offer. I've asked time and again for some credible information to back up the opinon that Carle is a poor defender. It has never come. Because it's simply not the case. The metrics are certainly out there. There is a ton of information available to come to an informed opinion.

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Carle is more reliable in his own end than Kaberle, but that isn't saying much.
Another poor comparison, similar to the Green comparison. And another desperate reach.


Last edited by VanSciver: 07-23-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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07-23-2011, 11:44 AM
  #164
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I'm of the opinion that the low amount of PK time Carle got is a pretty good indicator of his defensive abilities.

edit: Ah, you've replied. I don't really care enough to continue this since I need to help someone move now. I can rest assured that I actually have an honest opinion of Carle's abilities AND weaknesses. It's clear you won't listen to or consider any contrary argument.

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07-23-2011, 11:51 AM
  #165
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I'm of the opinion that the low amount of PK time Carle got is a pretty good indicator of his defensive abilities.
I wish I could post a venn diagram of the skill sets of PKing and 5on5 defense.

PKing skills would reside entirely inside the realm of those skills applicable to 5on5 defense, but it is entirely possible to be decent (though not exceptional) at one while being crap at the other.

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07-23-2011, 11:52 AM
  #166
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I wish I could post a venn diagram of the skill sets of PKing and 5on5 defense.

PKing skills would reside entirely inside the realm of those skills applicable to 5on5 defense, but it is entirely possible to be decent at one while being crap at the other.
Indeed it is, but generally someone who isn't strong on 5v5 defense is going to be pretty crap on the PK.

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07-23-2011, 11:53 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm of the opinion that the low amount of PK time Carle got is a pretty good indicator of his defensive abilities.

edit: Ah, you've replied. I don't really care enough to continue this since I need to help someone move now. I can rest assured that I actually have an honest opinion of Carle's abilities AND weaknesses. It's clear you won't listen to or consider any contrary argument.

It's an indicator that the other 4 defenseman are better suited for the PK. I don't believe that Carle should be ahead of any of the other 4, as far as icetime on the PK. That doesn't prove that Carle is weak defensively in his own end.

I've absolutely listened to your honest opinion. I truly believe that's how you feel. And I've listened to and considered all your arguments to the contrary. I've just refuted them with solid facts. If I didn't listen to or consider them, I just wouldn't reply to them.

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Indeed it is, but generally someone who isn't strong on 5v5 defense is going to be pretty crap on the PK.

Carle isn't crappy in 5 on 5 D or on the PK. The other 4 D men get more time on the PK because they are better suited for it than Carle is. A thought that escapes you.

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07-23-2011, 11:56 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Indeed it is, but generally someone who isn't strong on 5v5 defense is going to be pretty crap on the PK.
Guys like Coburn who tend to be stupid but with really good physical skills tend to look better at PKing than they do at 5on5 IMO. It's all busting your ass and making plays, it's simpler and not as cerebral as full strength IMO.


I'm trying to think of a defenseman who was just ok at full strength but who was a stud penalty killer. Mark Eaton is coming to mind and it's completely undermining my point. Damn it.

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07-23-2011, 12:02 PM
  #169
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Guys like Coburn who tend to be stupid but with really good physical skills tend to look better at PKing than they do at 5on5 IMO. It's all busting your ass and making plays, it's simpler and not as cerebral as full strength IMO.


I'm trying to think of a defenseman who was just ok at full strength but who was a stud penalty killer. Mark Eaton is coming to mind and it's completely undermining my point. Damn it.
Sean O'Donnell is probably a player who was better on the PK than in 5 on 5 due to a number of reasons.

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07-23-2011, 12:23 PM
  #170
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As much as people rag on Carle, can anyone else name another defenseman who puts up 40 points a year and makes about 3.3 million a year? People talk about replacing Carle all the time, but who do you replace him with? Who replaces his offense that would be lost? And who is top four defender that will sign for less than 4 million a year? You can't find one in that range.

And when people start talking about guys like Ryan Suter or Drew Doughty or anyone of that ilk, that's going to cost major dollars and that means moving pieces from the depth that's already in place.

Like I said in another post, I really believe that this will be the year that Carle puts it all together. There signs last year that he was putting it all together and there's no reason to believe otherwise. I mean, if everyone on here has been willing to give Coburn chance after chance after chance, then why is nobody willing to give Carle the same chance?
Randy jones once put up 31 points in 71 games on the flyers. Doesn't mean he was ever going to worth the contract we gave him.

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07-23-2011, 12:53 PM
  #171
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Randy jones once put up 31 points in 71 games on the flyers. Doesn't mean he was ever going to worth the contract we gave him.
You're comparing Jones to Carle? Come on, I understand the majority of people on here dislike Carle, but Carle is miles ahead of Jones in terms of talent and ability. Carle has already shown he's a capable point producing defenseman (two seasons of 40 points, a 30 point and a 25 point season).

And as I mentioned, try finding an unrestricted free agent Carle's age, with top 4 upside, and proven point producing capabilities to replace him. You can't. Fact is, for what Matt Carle brings to the table, he's underpaid and he's better than a lot of defensemen out there than what most are willing to admit.

And as I also mentioned, it's funny how there's such a huge double standard on this board when it comes to Carle. People rip him apart mercilessly are also the same people who have continually come to Coburn's defense. What exactly has Coburn done during his time as a Flyer? As much as others complain about Carle, I've never seen a more mistake prone defenseman than Coburn and yet the majority on here continue to give him a free pass simply. I really don't get it at all.......

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07-23-2011, 01:21 PM
  #172
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It looks like we have another randy jones player/poster situation. Only jones might have been better defensively and could score on the powerplay. Lol wut.

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07-23-2011, 01:33 PM
  #173
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You're comparing Jones to Carle? Come on, I understand the majority of people on here dislike Carle, but Carle is miles ahead of Jones in terms of talent and ability. Carle has already shown he's a capable point producing defenseman (two seasons of 40 points, a 30 point and a 25 point season).

And as I mentioned, try finding an unrestricted free agent Carle's age, with top 4 upside, and proven point producing capabilities to replace him. You can't. Fact is, for what Matt Carle brings to the table, he's underpaid and he's better than a lot of defensemen out there than what most are willing to admit.

And as I also mentioned, it's funny how there's such a huge double standard on this board when it comes to Carle. People rip him apart mercilessly are also the same people who have continually come to Coburn's defense. What exactly has Coburn done during his time as a Flyer? As much as others complain about Carle, I've never seen a more mistake prone defenseman than Coburn and yet the majority on here continue to give him a free pass simply. I really don't get it at all.......
I'm no Coburn defender, but he's at least shown improvement. After he was hit by that shot a couple seasons ago he seemed pretty timid, but he's coming out of that shell. He was much better overall on defense in 10-11 than he was in 09-10. Hopefully he continues improving and doesn't regress.

I doubt the guy will ever put up real points or be an offensive threat, unfortunately. I don't think he's good enough on defense right now to truly compensate for that, but he's been showing flashes of great potential/ability with increasing frequency. He needs to be more consistent, and hopefully he can lead a pairing soon.

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07-23-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm no Coburn defender, but he's at least shown improvement. After he was hit by that shot a couple seasons ago he seemed pretty timid, but he's coming out of that shell. He was much better overall on defense in 10-11 than he was in 09-10. Hopefully he continues improving and doesn't regress.

I doubt the guy will ever put up real points or be an offensive threat, unfortunately. I don't think he's good enough on defense right now to truly compensate for that, but he's been showing flashes of great potential/ability with increasing frequency. He needs to be more consistent, and hopefully he can lead a pairing soon.
Is a defenseman only a worthy player is he can " lead a pairing"? There seems to be a belief here that a defenseman at age 25 or 26 should be a finished product and not have any need for growth. All of the 3 Flyers defenseman have taken a pretty typical path of development to where they are now. It's pretty normal for young defenseman to have ups and downs to their Seasons.

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07-23-2011, 01:44 PM
  #175
Beef Invictus
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Is a defenseman only a worthy player is he can " lead a pairing"? There seems to be a belief here that a defenseman at age 25 or 26 should be a finished product and not have any need for growth. All of the 3 Flyers defenseman have taken a pretty typical path of development to where they are now. It's pretty normal for young defenseman to have ups and downs to their Seasons.
It's what I expect, because if we are going to keep them it's what they're going to need to do in coming years...sooner rather than later. Coburn has shown the potential to develop into that. Carle hasn't, though. He seems to have the talent, but very often his progression seems stagnant.

In the last two seasons, my trust in Coburn has increased. My trust in Carle, not so much. I was a much bigger fan of Carle than I was of Coburn, too.

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