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Rangers re-sign Ryan Callahan [3 years, $4.275M per]

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Old
07-27-2011, 04:13 AM
  #126
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Ladd was an integral part of Chicago's 3rd line. No, he wasn't Keith or Kane, but let's not make it sound like he was some spare part, getting 5 minutes a game either.
Callahan has been this team's best forward for about 3 seasons now, along with Gaborik in 2009-10.

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As far as the captaincy goes, I brought it up because a lot is made of (rightfully so) Cally's intangibles. Ladd was given the "C" after a trade, before even playing a game for the Thrashers. That speaks volumes for the high regard he is held in. Bad team or not, there a still only 30 in the league. Does Calgary's poor standing diminish Iginla's status as captain?
It speaks volumes about what a terrible and losing franchise the Atlanta Thrashers were. It's one thing to give a proven veteran leader that is new to the team the captaincy, but it's another to give it to a relatively unproven role player. He got it because he came from a winning team, and they were trying to build excitement for a "big" acquisition. Jarome Iginla wasn't given the captaincy after being traded to a bad team. He earned it with the team.

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Callahan is significantly better than Ladd away from the puck. Granted. Ladd is a more talented offensive player. What you fail to mention is the difference in physical stature between the two. Ladd's hitting wears down the opposition a lot more than Cally's. He's more likely to come away with the puck from a corner collision. Much harder to contain going to/in front of the net, leading to more/better scoring chances. These are elements Ladd (Kesler and Laich too) will always be superior in to Cally.
I didn't mention it because, as far as I'm concerned, that's an advantage that Callahan has over Ladd. Ladd's hitting also wears him down, results in more penalties, and ends with the puck on his stick less frequently. Callahan is an exceptional player in the corners, along the boards, and in all physical situations, just like he is in practically any other situation. When Callahan fights for pucks in the corner, he usually comes away with it.

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You also have to question how long Cally can keep playing this physical style without wearing down. It is certainly something to be concerned with when contemplating a 6 year contract. He can adjust by relying on more stick-checking but that would diminish his value as a spark-plug. When you take everything into consideration, I believe Cally and Ladd are very close in value. Even if you don't, Cally's the riskier long term proposition.
If he were to make that adjustment, his value would only increase, as such an adjustment would put him in the upper echelon of defensive players, thus making him more valuable than a spark-plug, which is incredibly degrading to call a player who is so much more than that.

Except for a small group of especially large and athletic players, the best defensive players in the league all rely on their stick more than their physicality. They position their body correctly to allow them to make the defensive play, but they tend to avoid initiating contact unless necessary. It makes them more efficient players, and it prolongs their value throughout a season, if not their careers, as well. What makes Kesler one of the league's best defensive forwards is that he combines excellent stick-checking with well above-average physicality.

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A comparison between Laich and Cally would run along similar lines. Cally has the edge away-from the puck and defensively. Offensively though, Laich is the more established commodity. His numbers are no doubt helped by the rest of Washington's offense, but he's been pretty consistent over the years. The Capitals know what they'll be getting within that particular setting.
This should be pretty cut-and-dry, but apparently it's not. Laich has been pretty consistent? Callahan is one of the most consistent players in the league. He's consistently the most effective and positively impactful skater on his team, which has been among the league's worst in terms of offensive ability before his development progressed to the point where he was one of the 2-3 most important offensive players on his team, all of whom arrived or progressed into that role at the same time as he did.

The only comparison there is to make between Callahan and Laich is that Laich is a poor man's Callahan.

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Cally had 40 and 37 points over 2 full seasons before hitting 48 in 60 last year. Has he turned the corner or was last year an aberration?
Yeah, that certainly tells the whole story. Because playing with Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, and Green is even remotely equivalent to playing with Gomez, Naslund, Zherdev, Drury, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Staal.

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Which brings us to Kesler. You say Cally is close in value to him while admitting that Kesler is the better all-around player. That would mean disregarding the difference in offense provided by the two players. Kesler put up 59, 75, and 73 points over the last 3 years. 26, 25, and a whopping 41 goals.

How are the two even remotely close? Contracts still put a premium on offense. In this case, the much, much better offensive player is also better in every other facet of the game, bigger, more physical, and likely to be more durable over the course of the contract.
Talk about disregarding. You've completely disregarded the fact that Kesler is the second-line center on arguably the league's best offensive team (and arguably best overall team), or that he plays behind arguably the best line in the league (the Sedins and whatever winger they play with), or that he plays on one of the league's deepest teams, and one of the league's best defensive teams, with one of the league's best goalies.

The only thing he and Callahan have in common in terms of supporting cast is the last 2 or 3. It's a pretty damn big difference in terms of situations. And again, I never said Callahan was as good as Kesler. Callahan is a smaller, less talented Kesler.

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If Cally is worth at least 5.5 mil on the open market, how much did Kesler leave on the table to stay in Vancouver for 5M? 2 or 3 million? His agent (btw, the same one who represents Dubi) isn't that clueless.
Again, you seem to be disregarding several things. One, Kesler plays in a phenomenal situation, and as good as he is, probably can't reproduce quite as significant an offensive contribution were he playing on a team without, say, the Sedins (to start). Two, Callahan is near, but probably not at the end, of his development curve. He's probably going to have a big year next year, where, like Kesler, he might actually be in a position to play on the second line, where he's easily one of the best second liners in the league, behind what should be a great offensive line in Dubinsky-Richards-Gaborik. Kesler signed his extension half a season after a season that was his version of what Callahan did in 10-11. He was halfway through what would be probably the season Callahan will have next year when he signed. He wanted to stay there, and he wanted to stay in that situation, and he was just becoming a big name at that point. If he was up, say, a year later, things might have been a bit different where salary is concerned.

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All-around players don't get payed as much as the ones who put up big offensive numbers. Whether it's forwards or defensemen. When they do, you wind up in the situation this team already had with Drury. Spending more on the same thing the rest of the league is paying less for. Still having to pay the market rate for scoring. That's not a recipe for success in a cap world.
Most of the best offensive players in the league are also some of the best all-around players in the league. Also, a number of elite offensive players who happen to be non-elite "all-around players" are somewhat over compensated because they are the linchpin piece to a small-market franchise.

Callahan is a better offensive player than Drury, and Callahan isn't being paid 7 million a season. Callahan is entering his prime, not exiting it. It's not a logical comparison.

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Old
07-27-2011, 04:57 AM
  #127
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No leaks yet. Brooks had the salary requests for each side with the Dubinsky arbitration. Brooks and Bartlett are not best buds. Bartlett made some comments about long term contracts such as the one Kovalchuk signed were bad for business. Brooks thought that was a bad comment. Bartlett doesn't like the NHLPA 5% bump because he feels it benefits the higher paid players. Brooks couldn't believe that comment. The NHLPA and agents should want a higher cap was Larry's argument.

The Rangers know what Bartlett will request and Bartlett knows what the Rangers have offered in their brief. Both sides exchange briefs 48 hours before the hearing.

Another 11th 1/2 hour agreement. Maybe the Rangers feel that's the best time to make a deal after their experience with Dubinsky. They know Callahan wants to stay. Maybe the demands become more realistic closer to the hearing.

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07-27-2011, 05:17 AM
  #128
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Preds fan here

One quick question: How sure are you all that Callahan will still be a Ranger next year? There is only one reason I ask. We are well below the cap floor right now and our GM stated he is waiting to see if some teams walk away from arbitration hearings so he could pluck someone up to be on our top 6. Just wanted to get a feeling as to how you all think it's gonna go down. Thanks.

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07-27-2011, 05:21 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by kypredsfan View Post
One quick question: How sure are you all that Callahan will still be a Ranger next year? There is only one reason I ask. We are well below the cap floor right now and our GM stated he is waiting to see if some teams walk away from arbitration hearings so he could pluck someone up to be on our top 6. Just wanted to get a feeling as to how you all think it's gonna go down. Thanks.
If it goes to arbitration, I don't see any way the Rangers walk away. They'll accept the award and then try to sign him to a long term extension in January.

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07-27-2011, 05:22 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by kypredsfan View Post
One quick question: How sure are you all that Callahan will still be a Ranger next year? There is only one reason I ask. We are well below the cap floor right now and our GM stated he is waiting to see if some teams walk away from arbitration hearings so he could pluck someone up to be on our top 6. Just wanted to get a feeling as to how you all think it's gonna go down. Thanks.
There is less than a zero percent chance of the Rangers walking away from an arbitration award. Even if it's above their expectations, they'd be absolutely ******** to just walk away.

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07-27-2011, 05:48 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
There is less than a zero percent chance of the Rangers walking away from an arbitration award. Even if it's above their expectations, they'd be absolutely ******** to just walk away.
Thanks for the responses so far. I don't know the Rangers cap situation or anything. I just know that our GM mentioned waiting for any deals to fall through the arb process for a "scorer". He sounds like a perfect Pred type player.

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07-27-2011, 06:33 AM
  #132
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I think Sting might just be Ryan Callahan's agent and based on the way he's overvaluing him (he actually called him a top 15-20 forward in the league) he's going to arbitration.


Last edited by Kel Varnsen: 07-27-2011 at 06:43 AM.
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07-27-2011, 06:36 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by kypredsfan View Post
Thanks for the responses so far. I don't know the Rangers cap situation or anything. I just know that our GM mentioned waiting for any deals to fall through the arb process for a "scorer". He sounds like a perfect Pred type player.
Think of it like this: what are the chances of Nashville simply walking away from from an arbitration award to Shea Weber?

The same applies to Callahan.

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07-27-2011, 06:57 AM
  #134
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So what if his contract has only one year? They’ll negotiate a new deal during the season, or shortly thereafter. And they shouldn’t screw this up. Though I still think between now and tomorrow’s arbitration hearing, Callahan will sign for four or five years and slightly more money than Brandon Dubinsky got ($4.2 million a year on average).
http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/2011/0...h-the-captain/

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07-27-2011, 07:04 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by kypredsfan View Post
Thanks for the responses so far. I don't know the Rangers cap situation or anything. I just know that our GM mentioned waiting for any deals to fall through the arb process for a "scorer". He sounds like a perfect Pred type player.
Poile can have Christensen who at $925,000 is perfect for Nashville.

Not a scorer but a player who can skate and shoot the puck.

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07-27-2011, 07:41 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kypredsfan View Post
One quick question: How sure are you all that Callahan will still be a Ranger next year? There is only one reason I ask. We are well below the cap floor right now and our GM stated he is waiting to see if some teams walk away from arbitration hearings so he could pluck someone up to be on our top 6. Just wanted to get a feeling as to how you all think it's gonna go down. Thanks.
Tell your GM to send 250k to Modo Sweeden,and I`m sure you can have Tollefsen who you agreed with a one year contract at 650k.

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07-27-2011, 07:54 AM
  #137
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Sting- You have written some good posts, and you make a good argument.

But, Callahan have -- by my book -- not done enough over a long enough time frame to warrant that type of money. Is he a the real "Ranger"? Of course. He is a dream come true, no doubt.

However, if Callahan had like Wolski's demeanor, lets be realistic, he would be lineing up against Binghampton, Manchester and co, not NHL teams. He has a good shot and is a decent skater, but without the sacrifize extra ordinere, the kid is a 35 pts player. With the sacrifize, 60 pts is a very good number for him.

Lets also not forget that he scored a bunch of pts because while we as a team were strong, we had no sufficient goto line, and Callahan got a ton of opertunities. Had Gabby and co performed, that would have resulted in a more normal icetime situation for Cally, which in its turn easily would have resulted in 10-15 pts less than he actually scored.

While he is a great Ranger, as a RFA, as a 26 y/o, it is not good business to even pay 5+m per for a player who have scored 0.3 PPG in the PO's, been a career 0.5 PPG in the regular season except/despite one year when he was on pace to score something like 65 pts, and who is bound to have some injury issues over his career, while they certainly do not have to be serious, but still.

Look, letting him walk is not a option. So Slats has no easy task. But I hope we are not considering anting up for him without first testing the options, of which one is getting him tied up for another year and than seing how things stands in 7 months.

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07-27-2011, 08:04 AM
  #138
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I would honestly be shocked if Callahan got a contract with a larger cap hit than dubinsky...

If we haven't learned from Drury that you can't pay people off of intangibles, then we are doomed as an organization.

Caly deserves every cent he gets, and deserves a contract equal to Dubinsky's, but to push his cap hit higher for intangibles is foolish.

I've seen many arguements about the Dubinsky/Callahan points numbers this year, with people claiming "cally was hurt for a while or his numbers would have been better"

What about the fact that Dubi had to play long stretches without 2 of the teams best 3 forwards (callahan and gaborik)

I'd be interested to see Cally's numbers had it been Dubinsky and gaborik out.

Love Cally...fear the Drury rout...

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07-27-2011, 08:09 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
First of all, Dubinsky didn't beat out anybody. That training camp was just the first of many indications (all of which should have been more than obvious long before July of that year) that signing Drury and Gomez was a monumentally awful decision. Second of all, two very good players? Drury wasn't just a good player - he was a phenomenal player. A phenomenal ROLE player. Gomez? At no point in his career has Gomez ever been a very good player. He's never even been a good player. No player that is a detriment to his club even when scoring 70 or more points a season is a good player.



69 pts, scored primarily on the PP, through garbage duty, while spending most time at even strength on the team's THIRD line. He was one of the best players on that team. One of the best defensive players. At no point in his career was Drury an exceptional offensive player. At no point did he ever display any sort of top-end playmaking skills. I don't know what moron ever imagined that he'd make a good center for Jagr, but obviously, he was a horrible fit right from the start.



Stats almost never tell the whole story. As if Gomez was ever an integral part of any Devils cup win. The Devils were such a well-coached team, such a defensive machine, and so deep and balanced, that they were able to hide Gomez's grotesque play. Gomez was never a key player on any Devils' cup teams. He was, at best, the 8th or 9th most important player on those teams. Brodeur, Stevens, Nieds, Elias, Mogilny, Sykora, Holik were all more important to the success of those teams, especially in the playoffs.

What he was coming off of, by the way, was a season in which he put up one of the most wasteful and inefficient seasons in NHL history. Taking 248 shots, scoring 13 goals, and racking up a shooting percentage of 5.2%. Or, the worst shooting percentage of any of the NHL's top 40 shots on goal leaders that season. That's the same amount of shots that Sidney Crosby and Zach Parise took, for comparison's sake. As mindblowingly horrendous as that season was, he managed to match his astoundingly stupid play the following season (lucky for us), when he took 242 shots and shot 6.6%, third worst among the top 50. That season where he scored 80 points was, of course, 2005-06, when scoring was way up league-wide (and probably around the time that Blomez figured he was something of a goalscorer, since he scored 33, which was the first and only time he's ever scored more than 19 goals in his career. That worked out well for him.)

Mind you, this is just shooting. There aren't any stats that truly give justice to the abhorrent decisionmaking Gomez makes in the offensive zone when he isn't taking predictable, soft shots that generally result in a loss of possession and a waste of an offensive zone opportunity. You have to watch for yourself and see how, more than arguably any other top-6 offensive-minded forward in the league, he consistently makes the wrong pass at the wrong time, establishes his position in the wrong place, or simply runs the wrong play altogether. What other player in a similar or comparable role on their team wastes as many offensive zone opportunities? Among forwards, perhaps only Olli Jokinen (and even then, not as often) can match the buffoonery of Gomez.

Try to name a primarily puckhandling player that Scott Gomez has ever shown good chemistry with. I can think only of one: Patrik Elias, and even then, if you think about their heyday, it was a lot more Elias than it was Gomez, but that's not surprising, because Elias is a much better player. Gomez can't figure out how to play when he's handling the puck, how can he be expected to figure out how to share the puck with another puckhandler? Needless to say, expecting Gomez to be a good center for Jagr was another absurd pipe dream that the good folks at MSG tried to peddle to the fanbase (most of whom bought it hook, like and sinker).

Dubinsky did an admirable job as a rookie centering Jagr, but he didn't win anything. He got the job by default, because there was no other viable candidate for the position.



Because he's a significantly stronger all-around player than Ladd? They are just about equal offensively (maybe Ladd is a bit better), but away from the puck, Ladd is like Dubinsky or Laich who you mention below. Solid, better than average, but no Callahan. Not even close. Also, captain of a bad team and a cup ring from a squad where he was a player of little consequence.



Actually, he is. Kesler's greatest asset, like Callahan's, is his play away from the puck. Kesler is one of the best in the league in that regard. Better than Callahan, but Callahan is not far behind. Kesler is a top 5 all-around forward in this league. Callahan is top 15-20.



Other than being bigger and more durable, there is nothing about Laich that is more appealing than Callahan. Laich is a solid two-way forward, and a good player. Similar to Callahan, but Callahan is a better player in every aspect of the game, and does just as much offensively despite not being on the same team as Ovechkin/Backstrom/Semin/Green.

There's a couple of reasons Cally's representation wants him to reach the UFA market soon. One of those reasons is that if Callahan ever hit the open market, every single coach in this league would instantly begin pestering their respective GMs to do almost anything to get Callahan signed. No, he's not going to get the same kind of money that elite offensive players get, but he'll definitely get paid, especially because the competition for him would be huge. Players who are as strong in every part of the game and as consistent as Callahan are incredibly rare. There are, at most 20, forwards in this league that are comparable to him in that regard. Probably less. Unfortunately, most fans don't understand the game from a tactical perspective, and they can't appreciate how unbelievable important it is to have a player that makes the right play every shift, every game, and that you can't say that about more than a handful of players.

If Callahan hits the open market next year, he is getting AT LEAST 5.5 mil. But I don't think that's going to happen. They'll get him signed before the hearing.
Jagr was the best player on the team at the time.

Gomez was brought in here to play with Jagr.

Dubinsky as a 21 year old not only beat him out and earned the right to play with Jagr, but Jagr wanted to play with him also. No matter how you want to tear it up he earned that spot.

On Gomez, his resume speaks for itself. Is he a 7 million dollar player? Hell no, but you can't overlook his achievements, nor can you overlook Dubi out performing Callahan in his first couple of seasons no matter who he played with.

At the end of the day, Dubinsky will be the bigger offensive force for the Rangers offense. And...If Dubi's number are better at the end of the season is it going to be becuase he played with Richards or becuase he earned the spot on the top line?

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07-27-2011, 08:29 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I would honestly be shocked if Callahan got a contract with a larger cap hit than dubinsky...

If we haven't learned from Drury that you can't pay people off of intangibles, then we are doomed as an organization.

Caly deserves every cent he gets, and deserves a contract equal to Dubinsky's, but to push his cap hit higher for intangibles is foolish.

I've seen many arguements about the Dubinsky/Callahan points numbers this year, with people claiming "cally was hurt for a while or his numbers would have been better"

What about the fact that Dubi had to play long stretches without 2 of the teams best 3 forwards (callahan and gaborik)

I'd be interested to see Cally's numbers had it been Dubinsky and gaborik out.

Love Cally...fear the Drury rout...
Drury wasn't paid based on intangibles. He paid for past performance — like all UFAs.

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07-27-2011, 08:34 AM
  #141
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The question you have to ask, if he goes to arbitration and gets a one year deal to make him a UFA next year, what will teams offer him next year. If he believes he will get offers of over 5 million a year and for more than 5 or 6 years (and I think he would), he has no incentive to sign a long term deal with the Rangers unless they give him that amount now. So Rangers management needs to determine if they want to get to that point.

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07-27-2011, 08:40 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I would honestly be shocked if Callahan got a contract with a larger cap hit than dubinsky...

If we haven't learned from Drury that you can't pay people off of intangibles, then we are doomed as an organization.

Caly deserves every cent he gets, and deserves a contract equal to Dubinsky's, but to push his cap hit higher for intangibles is foolish.

I've seen many arguements about the Dubinsky/Callahan points numbers this year, with people claiming "cally was hurt for a while or his numbers would have been better"

What about the fact that Dubi had to play long stretches without 2 of the teams best 3 forwards (callahan and gaborik)

I'd be interested to see Cally's numbers had it been Dubinsky and gaborik out.

Love Cally...fear the Drury rout...
If Cally gets a higher cap hit it's because we (probably) are buying out more UFA years.

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07-27-2011, 08:43 AM
  #143
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Callahan is so greedy, cmon just sign the contract

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07-27-2011, 08:56 AM
  #144
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Callahan is the only player I've seen in the past few years on this team that NEVER takes a shift off. Prust is the 2nd closest at about 95%.

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07-27-2011, 08:56 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Think of it like this: what are the chances of Nashville simply walking away from from an arbitration award to Shea Weber?

The same applies to Callahan.
Trust me, our entire fanbase is freaking out over the possibility of Weber even heading to arbitration next tuesday. If Weber goes to arbitration, there will be a lot of pissed off people. That doesn't bode well for either side. Is that not how you all feel about Callahan? Maybe he signs before the hearing tomorrow, but what if he goes to the hearing and only gets a 1 year deal? Doesn't that make you feel as if he doesn't want to be a Ranger?

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07-27-2011, 08:59 AM
  #146
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The question you have to ask, if he goes to arbitration and gets a one year deal to make him a UFA next year, what will teams offer him next year. If he believes he will get offers of over 5 million a year and for more than 5 or 6 years (and I think he would), he has no incentive to sign a long term deal with the Rangers unless they give him that amount now. So Rangers management needs to determine if they want to get to that point.
No incentive? How about playing in a place he loves, in front of fans that adore him? How about captaining an original six team with a bright future?

I think the Rangers will give him $4.5-4.85MM per year for 5 or 6 years, throw in the benefits he'll have as a player and a resident of NYC, and reasonable proximity to his family Upstate, and I can't imagine the possibility of an extra million or two over 5/6 years is going to make him leave.

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07-27-2011, 09:07 AM
  #147
Just Lurking
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Callahan is so greedy, cmon just sign the contract
Clearly this is Dubinsky's fault. Now, his greed is screwing up the negotiations with Callahan...That's strike 3...trade his ass for a bag of pucks and some zamboni grease.

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07-27-2011, 09:16 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by kypredsfan View Post
One quick question: How sure are you all that Callahan will still be a Ranger next year? There is only one reason I ask. We are well below the cap floor right now and our GM stated he is waiting to see if some teams walk away from arbitration hearings so he could pluck someone up to be on our top 6. Just wanted to get a feeling as to how you all think it's gonna go down. Thanks.
There is a 0% chance they walk away from any arbitration award for Callahan. 0%.

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07-27-2011, 09:17 AM
  #149
BrooklynRangersFan
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Originally Posted by Just Lurking View Post
Clearly this is Dubinsky's fault. Now, his greed is screwing up the negotiations with Callahan...That's strike 3...trade his ass for a bag of pucks and some zamboni grease.
The concept of "zamboni grease" (as if it's somehow a special substance different from any other kind of grease) made me chuckle.

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07-27-2011, 09:29 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
OK, seriously, you need to let this go. You sound like a broken record that's been reassembled, glued together, passed through a grinder, incinerated and scattered along the Atlantic coast... then digitally restored again to make sure that your message stays alive.
And yet, it still doesn't make my point any less accurate. Go figure.

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