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Josh Gorges re-signs 1 year, $2.5 M (July 2011)

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07-31-2011, 01:20 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I didn't say management, I said some posters here.

Let me ask you this, are you happier with having a potential offensive 3rd line like Eller-AK-DD, or would you rather have a Lappy-Moen-Darche type of line?
Why would it be any different for the defense. There is no point in opting to choose a limited specialist over a well rounded depth Dman. Having a guy like Hammer on a bottom pairing is a luxury. I don't see why anybody would prefer to add someone with a limited skillset as opposed to a well rounded, decent puck mover Dman. If cap space was an issue, I'd understand but when it's not, you'd have to be a fool to choose a PK specialist.
Anyways, not going back into this debate. Like I said, it's pretty telling when some would choose Gill over Hammer.
That's completely wrong in my opinion. I'd rather have people who are the best at what they do, than people that are just good at everything. It's the basis of the entire field of economics Gill is better than Hamrlik on the PK so you choose Gill, simple. Markov, Subban and Weber are there for the PP. Gill, Emelin and Gorges for the PK. So we don't need Hamrlik. If you have the opportunity to get a specialist to fill a need, you do it. You only get a well-rounded guy if you feel the other guys can't perform their roles and we're very balanced in both.

People are making this a Gill vs. Hamrlik thing. It's not. It's how do those guys fit in with the rest of the group that's important. With that in mind, Gill is more appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I didn't say management, I said some posters here.

Let me ask you this, are you happier with having a potential offensive 3rd line like Eller-AK-DD, or would you rather have a Lappy-Moen-Darche type of line?
Why would it be any different for the defense. There is no point in opting to choose a limited specialist over a well rounded depth Dman. Having a guy like Hammer on a bottom pairing is a luxury. I don't see why anybody would prefer to add someone with a limited skillset as opposed to a well rounded, decent puck mover Dman. If cap space was an issue, I'd understand but when it's not, you'd have to be a fool to choose a PK specialist.
Anyways, not going back into this debate. Like I said, it's pretty telling when some would choose Gill over Hammer.
That is also incorrect because you can have 3 offensive lines and have Lappy-Moen-Darche as a 4th line. You're talking about the old school ideas of 2 offensive lines, a 3rd checking line and a 4th grinding line. That model hasn't been used for years. Most teams are going to 3 offensive lines and a 4th line that can grind and play hockey.

You need to separate your idea of Gill vs. Hamrlik, one for one. You need to look at the entire D core as a whole and who'll play what roles, and see if Gill over Hamrlik in any of those roles is better. In the areas that you find Hamrlik superior, ask how far down the depth chart he is in those roles with Markov, Subban and Weber there. I hope that gives you your answer. If not, I can't help you anymore lol


Last edited by Habsfan18: 07-31-2011 at 01:30 PM. Reason: merged posts
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07-31-2011, 03:27 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
That's completely wrong in my opinion. I'd rather have people who are the best at what they do, than people that are just good at everything. It's the basis of the entire field of economics Gill is better than Hamrlik on the PK so you choose Gill, simple. Markov, Subban and Weber are there for the PP. Gill, Emelin and Gorges for the PK. So we don't need Hamrlik. If you have the opportunity to get a specialist to fill a need, you do it. You only get a well-rounded guy if you feel the other guys can't perform their roles and we're very balanced in both.

People are making this a Gill vs. Hamrlik thing. It's not. It's how do those guys fit in with the rest of the group that's important. With that in mind, Gill is more appropriate.



That is also incorrect because you can have 3 offensive lines and have Lappy-Moen-Darche as a 4th line. You're talking about the old school ideas of 2 offensive lines, a 3rd checking line and a 4th grinding line. That model hasn't been used for years. Most teams are going to 3 offensive lines and a 4th line that can grind and play hockey.

You need to separate your idea of Gill vs. Hamrlik, one for one. You need to look at the entire D core as a whole and who'll play what roles, and see if Gill over Hamrlik in any of those roles is better. In the areas that you find Hamrlik superior, ask how far down the depth chart he is in those roles with Markov, Subban and Weber there. I hope that gives you your answer. If not, I can't help you anymore lol
You awnser it yourself if the only 3 you think should be ahead are Markov, Subban and... Weber...

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07-31-2011, 03:34 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
You awnser it yourself if the only 3 you think should be ahead are Markov, Subban and... Weber...
All I'll say is read my post again.

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07-31-2011, 03:39 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
All I'll say is read my post again.
considering your economics comparison doesnt fit and that last few cup winners were using the 2 off line, 1 def line and a 4th filled with grinders there isnt much in your other paragraphs

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07-31-2011, 04:20 PM
  #305
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At the end of the day, it's pretty obvious the habs didn't sign Hamrlik for one reason and one reason only...the fact that he wanted 2 years. It was not something they were going to budge on.

I'm looking forward to seeing the youngins get some experience this year.

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07-31-2011, 11:08 PM
  #306
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Because we have 2 solid puck movers on the team and 2 more coming soon but only 1 pk specialist? We don't need your average all-around defensmen anymore, we already have Spacek for that anyways. Without Gill in the line-up the pk goes south and the player PK Subban ends up playing with will not give him the same luxury of playing as offensively as he wants.
Right, and if Markov goes injured again like he did the last two years??? We end up with having one only. Didn't people understand that without Hammer these past two years, there's nothing??
There's a reason why he won the award over Gill/Darche despite being paid 5.5M.

Who cares about a PK Specialist really? I mean, if you have a solid ES group as well as depth, then okay. If all goes right for us, then we *might* have that. But as of today, no matter how confident you want to be, Emelin is a question mark, Markov and Gorges are coming back from big injuries (Markov is already being labeled as injury prone/glass knee by some fans), and Spacek has been a disappointment since joining us (I'm one of the few that actually recognize Spacek's importance to our club, but he's still been disappointing). Weber is a youngster that's still unproven, although I'm expecting great things from him.
So really, PK ends up being the sold player you can truly be confident in, and even then, there's always the sophomore jinx that's inexplicable and unpredictable.

I don't think we needed a PK Specialist more than we needed a well rounded depth Dman. Too many question marks for us to have the confidence in not needed that depth signing. Even Gauthier believed so seeing how he offered Hammer a deal.
I'll take a guy that's solid for 16min at ES over someone that's good for 4min on the PK.

Why would our PK go south without Gill btw??? Pittsburgh had no problem doing well without him, 6 teams were ahead of us, how did they all manage without Gill?
We have a strong defensive system, Gill was a specialist there, so we took advantage of that. In no way does it mean we would struggle without him and plummet down.

We're still lacking a top 4 D, which to me, is more important than a number 5-6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
In the areas that you find Hamrlik superior, ask how far down the depth chart he is in those roles with Markov, Subban and Weber there. I hope that gives you your answer. If not, I can't help you anymore lol
Weber is not by any means more superior than Hammer at this point. We can only hope he'll be as good.
Also, didn't Markov play 60 games (reg+PO) over 2years and a half? Can you confidently say Markov will not miss about 20 games last year? So, you can very well end up with just one guy, PK, that's truly ahead in depth chart.
Don't see how Gill fills a bigger void than Hammer.

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08-01-2011, 01:17 AM
  #307
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Weber is not by any means more superior than Hammer at this point. We can only hope he'll be as good.
Also, didn't Markov play 60 games (reg+PO) over 2years and a half? Can you confidently say Markov will not miss about 20 games last year? So, you can very well end up with just one guy, PK, that's truly ahead in depth chart.
Don't see how Gill fills a bigger void than Hammer.[/QUOTE]


Weber is arleady a better puck moving d-man, he's also more of a threat on the PP. I know the numbers didn't show that last year, but watching him play it was pretty obvious.

I can confidently say Markov will not miss about 20 games next year, although you said last year so I'm not sure what you're getting at. If he gets injured it will probably be a serious long term injury. Who knows what will happen with Markov though.

Look, the habs didn't want to give Hamrlik 2 years. So he left. Gill was happy to take a 1 year deal and he has also played great with both Subban AND Gorges in the past.

And maybe he'll play with Weber next year, who knows really

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08-01-2011, 02:09 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Right, and if Markov goes injured again like he did the last two years??? We end up with having one only. Didn't people understand that without Hammer these past two years, there's nothing??
There's a reason why he won the award over Gill/Darche despite being paid 5.5M.

Who cares about a PK Specialist really? I mean, if you have a solid ES group as well as depth, then okay. If all goes right for us, then we *might* have that. But as of today, no matter how confident you want to be, Emelin is a question mark, Markov and Gorges are coming back from big injuries (Markov is already being labeled as injury prone/glass knee by some fans), and Spacek has been a disappointment since joining us (I'm one of the few that actually recognize Spacek's importance to our club, but he's still been disappointing). Weber is a youngster that's still unproven, although I'm expecting great things from him.
So really, PK ends up being the sold player you can truly be confident in, and even then, there's always the sophomore jinx that's inexplicable and unpredictable.

I don't think we needed a PK Specialist more than we needed a well rounded depth Dman. Too many question marks for us to have the confidence in not needed that depth signing. Even Gauthier believed so seeing how he offered Hammer a deal.
I'll take a guy that's solid for 16min at ES over someone that's good for 4min on the PK.

Why would our PK go south without Gill btw??? Pittsburgh had no problem doing well without him, 6 teams were ahead of us, how did they all manage without Gill?
We have a strong defensive system, Gill was a specialist there, so we took advantage of that. In no way does it mean we would struggle without him and plummet down.

We're still lacking a top 4 D, which to me, is more important than a number 5-6.
Agreed, and for those who think we need some specialists (see Ginu about... economics) there's a huge flaw in that theory anyway... simply put, in a team concept, for every specialist you have on your team you need a few players who can do a little bit of everything... cause those guys (n this case D-men) who arent specialised in anything in particular are on the 2nd PP wave or 2nd PK wave (in some case like Hamrlik, both), they usually can eat up lots of minutes, play solid five on five hockey... and bring the offense PK specialists cant (or defense offensive specialists cant provide)...

I mean, as good as Gill can be on the PK, there's no way he's going to provide the +/- 30 pts Hammer was giving us, he's not going to be on the 2nd PP wave either, he will not participate in the transition game in any way, he will also need a great skater next to him as his movements are extremely limited...

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08-01-2011, 06:17 AM
  #309
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Gill: he found his niche on a team with a defensive system because he has no other skillset. He's a big body with a long reach. That's his skillset. Fits nicely with a player who is much more mobile and does the dirty work. He makes Subban look a million times better.

Hamrlik: was forced to provide offense and take risks at an age when it was difficult. While Gill kept his same game Hamrlik had to adjust his constantly to compensate for injuries or the situation. Whether it was playing huge minutes, on the PK, on the PP, at ES, with this or that for a partner he had to constantly adjust and did it very well.

Weber: He showed his best offensive skills while playing at forward and on the PP with Hamrlik.

Gorges: I'm hoping he becomes more like Hamrlik than Hal Gill.

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08-01-2011, 06:51 AM
  #310
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Gill has better chemistry with Subban and Gorges than Hamrlik and probably Markov too because he's a very good complement to offensive D.

Therefore he is more useful to THIS team than Hamrlik.

Plus, he is probably a better leader in the locker room

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08-01-2011, 06:53 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
Gill has better chemistry with Subban and Gorges than Hamrlik and probably Markov too because he's a very good complement to offensive D.

Therefore he is more useful to THIS team than Hamrlik.

Plus, he is probably a better leader in the locker room
I'm sure Hamrlik is a damn good guy in the locker room as well. Hamrlik wanted 2 years and with Price and Subban coming up next year they only wanted to give Hamrlik 1 year. It really is that simple. Hamrlik will be great in Washington, that goof Phaneuf owes most of his salary to Hamrlik.

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08-01-2011, 07:09 AM
  #312
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Markov better stay healthy AND...show up (perform) in playoffs for once.
I'll be watching him closely...

Gorges was given 1 year (to test out his knee).

Markov gets 3 years to test out his left knee, right knee, playoff heart (whether or not he will show up for once), arms, legs, neck, wrists, etc...


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08-01-2011, 07:10 AM
  #313
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I'm sure Hamrlik is a damn good guy in the locker room as well. Hamrlik wanted 2 years and with Price and Subban coming up next year they only wanted to give Hamrlik 1 year. It really is that simple. Hamrlik will be great in Washington, that goof Phaneuf owes most of his salary to Hamrlik.
That's completely ridiculous. PK and Price coming off the books have nothing to do with why Hammer didn't get two years.
The reason why Gauthier didn't want to give him 2years is because we have guys like Markov-PK-Diaz-Emelin that management expect to be keep improving and possibly filling in bigger roles. If you give a spot to Hammer, you limit your roster spots.
We would have plenty of money coming off the books even with Hammer signed.

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08-01-2011, 07:43 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
Gill has better chemistry with Subban and Gorges than Hamrlik and probably Markov too because he's a very good complement to offensive D.

Therefore he is more useful to THIS team than Hamrlik.

Plus, he is probably a better leader in the locker room
Hamrlik was fine with Subban during the 2009 - 2010 playoffs. Explain why Subban and Hamrlik had the most points and best + / -. And to boot went to the conference finals. Also bear in mind Gill was missing in that critical 6th game against Pittsburgh.

This past year Gill was partnered with Subban out of absolute necessity and Subban happened to flourish at that time because JM no longer could staple him to the bench. Gill was the beneficiary.

Subban could use a more offensive minded d-man so he doesn't have all the leg work to do in his own zone. Gill was an anchor to Subban in the playoffs who was less productive in this past year's playoffs than the year before with a lot less experience.

I don't mind Gorges in the top four near as much as Gill. Having Gill in the top four with Subban makes me cringe.

I'll conjecture that one of the main reasons Washington signed Hamrlik was to pair him with Mike Green who struggled last year. Wiz also has Hamrlik to thank for his contract.

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08-01-2011, 08:34 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Agreed, and for those who think we need some specialists (see Ginu about... economics) there's a huge flaw in that theory anyway... simply put, in a team concept, for every specialist you have on your team you need a few players who can do a little bit of everything... cause those guys (n this case D-men) who arent specialised in anything in particular are on the 2nd PP wave or 2nd PK wave (in some case like Hamrlik, both), they usually can eat up lots of minutes, play solid five on five hockey... and bring the offense PK specialists cant (or defense offensive specialists cant provide)...

I mean, as good as Gill can be on the PK, there's no way he's going to provide the +/- 30 pts Hammer was giving us, he's not going to be on the 2nd PP wave either, he will not participate in the transition game in any way, he will also need a great skater next to him as his movements are extremely limited...
Ask anyone with a PhD in economics and he'll tell you that, if you have various people in an organization, it's always optimal to fit people who specialize in specific roles into those positions. Now we may disagree on Hamrlik vs. Weber but, given the D core as a whole, Gill does complement the group better. Those who choose Hamrlik because of "what-if" Markov goes down again are preparing for something that hasn't happened yet. I agree that a guy like Hamrlik is good for covering injuries because he can fit into a number of roles, but I'd rather give Weber a chance on the PP and Subban more responsibility next-season. You don't spend $3.5m on an insurance policy. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised to get a younger defenseman (which we've already done in Mitera) to play along with these young players. I'd personally like a guy like Hannan who's 32. He's an elite shut-down defenseman. Again, get players that are specialized in their roles.


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08-01-2011, 09:19 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
Gill has better chemistry with Subban and Gorges than Hamrlik and probably Markov too because he's a very good complement to offensive D.

Therefore he is more useful to THIS team than Hamrlik.

Plus, he is probably a better leader in the locker room
That's the biggest misconception on these boards.
Gill is not useful to PK on the ice. Gill is not even good at ES. He is slow, has no break out pass and has no transitional game. He's not even that good defensively. What he benefits of is size and reach, that's all.
PK helps Gill on the ice a lot more than Gill helps PK, matter of fact, he barely helps him.
The reason why he was placed with him is because their personality match. He fills up the big brother role to perfection, in terms of attitude, not gameplay. He also serves as a protector. Having a 6'7 guy bear hug the numerous opponents trying to get to your potential superstar flashy rookie dman is important. That's why he was placed there. It's not because PK could go all out on attack and Gill would cover for him. Gill can't even cover for himself, let alone PK.

Whereas a guy like Hammer has a track record of helping youngsters out improve their game. Phaneuf, O'Byrne, Weber, Gorges, Streit have all taken their first steps along side Hammer and benefited from it.

There's no way to justify Gill over Hammer when speaking about on ice contribution. We're still lacking that #4 D, which is more important than bottom pairing guys.

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08-01-2011, 09:34 AM
  #317
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I think a lot of people don't realize we have Emelin and Diaz who have always had their skill set but always lacked some offense. Last year both players put it all together and are at that early vet age. We signed both and management fully expects two of Emelin, Diaz or Weber to be full time top 6 D in the NHL. (Not #7)

Why would we give Hammer a two year deal when guys like Emelin Diaz or Weber may be NHL ready by January? Not saying they'll be Roman Hamrlik, Hammer was a 1st overall pick and he's a solid vet D. Problem is he's moving along in age and these guys down the road could replace him. Not saying they'll be better but they'll bring their own assets to the table, in some areas they might be better. Time will tell but in my eyes whether he stays with us or not Weber is a lock for the NHL. Emelin/Diaz it remains to be seen what they can do at the NHL level.

Apparently Streit was already 28 when we brought him over! A 9th round pick no less!

No reason in my eyes a guy like Diaz can't do something similar.

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08-01-2011, 09:35 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Ask anyone with a PhD in economics and he'll tell you that, if you have various people in an organization, it's always optimal to fit people who specialize in specific roles into those positions. Now we may disagree on Hamrlik vs. Weber but, given the D core as a whole, Gill does complement the group better. Those who choose Hamrlik because of "what-if" Markov goes down again are preparing for something that hasn't happened yet. I agree that a guy like Hamrlik is good for covering injuries because he can fit into a number of roles, but I'd rather give Weber a chance on the PP and Subban more responsibility next-season. You don't spend $3.5m on an insurance policy. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised to get a younger defenseman (which we've already done in Mitera) to play along with these young players. I'd personally like a guy like Hannan who's 32. He's an elite shut-down defenseman. Again, get players that are specialized in their roles.
Nothing wrong with preparation. But I would chose Hamrlik because of not only that backup plan but because he's much better at even strength and a good mentor in his own right. Gauthier was willing to sign Hamrlik too and maybe Gauthier thought it would happen but Gauthier is only seemingly interested in one year contracts - even for Hal Gill.

This team's history of injuries on the blueline the last three years is pretty extensive. And JM's style of play doesn't help. I don't think it's exactly wise to ignore history either despite the economics of it all. I understand your "better fit" theory I just don't buy it for my own reasons. Right now Gauthier has money left on the table that he was going to give to Hamrlik. And right now there's nothing to fill that void. But at least economically he's collecting interest. LOL

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08-01-2011, 09:44 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Ask anyone with a PhD in economics and he'll tell you that, if you have various people in an organization, it's always optimal to fit people who specialize in specific roles into those positions. Now we may disagree on Hamrlik vs. Weber but, given the D core as a whole, Gill does complement the group better. Those who choose Hamrlik because of "what-if" Markov goes down again are preparing for something that hasn't happened yet. I agree that a guy like Hamrlik is good for covering injuries because he can fit into a number of roles, but I'd rather give Weber a chance on the PP and Subban more responsibility next-season. You don't spend $3.5m on an insurance policy. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised to get a younger defenseman (which we've already done in Mitera) to play along with these young players. I'd personally like a guy like Hannan who's 32. He's an elite shut-down defenseman. Again, get players that are specialized in their roles.
Ya, you should *perhaps* get some specialist once your other holes have been filled. We're still lacking an established top 4. And what is more important, a top4 or a bottom pairing guy? A guy that will be good for 17min at ES or a guy that will be great for 4min on the PK and then rather weak at ES?
Also, you shouldn't wait for Markov to get injured again before finding a plan B. You know there's a very possible chance he'll get injured. Matter of fact, given his past two seasons, you should flat out expect it. That would be smart planning. If he remains healthy then you have solid depth instead of a regular one with a PK specialist. Do you realize how incredibly advantaged we could be if guys like AK-DD-Eller-Hammer and Weber/Spacek would play most of their time versus bottom6 guys??? I mean, that would be some serious mismatch on most nights and could improve . But no, we have Gill, that's great for 4min, but has trouble skating and making a decent pass out of the zone.

For some special reason, it seems some believe having a guy like Hammer would not improve our squad. We already have "similar" Dmen, so no need for him. That's BS. Having such talented Dmen go up against weaker player would be a luxury not a problem. Our squad with Hammer is better than one with Gill. There's no question about that.

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08-01-2011, 10:26 AM
  #320
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Markov better stay healthy AND...show up (perform) in playoffs for once.
I'll be watching him closely...

Gorges was given 1 year (to test out his knee).

Markov gets 3 years to test out his left knee, right knee, playoff heart (whether or not he will show up for once), arms, legs, neck, wrists, etc...
Questioning the knee, the 3 year deal etc I'm right there with you. But it's the first time I ever hear anyone question Markov's heart.

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08-01-2011, 11:01 AM
  #321
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Questioning the knee, the 3 year deal etc I'm right there with you. But it's the first time I ever hear anyone question Markov's heart.
Yeah I'm puzzled as well. I don't recall this ever being a problem in Markov's case

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08-01-2011, 11:11 AM
  #322
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I think Gill is underrated here. Yes he is often caught flat footed. But he still is the best habs D in his own zone.

When he is on the ice, you never see any player in the crease that help a lot the young guys who just have to concentrate on getting the puck.

Plus, ultimately, the one replacing Hamrlik is not Gill... It is Subban has the leader of the second pairing and the go to guy to get the puck out of the zone.

I agree that Hamrlik is a better player and I think he would be useful to the team because I think that since he's with the habs, we never missed the playoffs.

But Gill is not the worst d men on this team... Far from it. There's a reason why he always played on a dominant pairing in the playoff. Either be it with Subban or Gorges or even the year before in pittsburgh, it's not fair to say that it's always the other guy that's really good and dismiss all what Gill is doing. I'd even say that in the last 4 years, he was pretty consistant has a go to defencemen

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08-01-2011, 12:33 PM
  #323
Kriss E
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I think Gill is underrated here. Yes he is often caught flat footed. But he still is the best habs D in his own zone.
You've got to be kidding me.

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08-01-2011, 02:02 PM
  #324
durojean
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it's hard to explain myself has english is not my first language... far from it and I know I went a a little strong when I said that he was the best of the team in the defensive end.

What I wanted to say is that he is very effective when posted near the front of the net to cut passes and to neutralize the play. In that aspect he is at his best and I , think that's why he's effective with Subban.

My point is that's for four year in a row Gill was a go to guy for his team in the playoff and that's gotta mean something.

And I said all along that I think Hamrlik is better than Gill... but I understant de reasoning behind the decision to keep Gill.

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08-01-2011, 02:28 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by durojean View Post
it's hard to explain myself has english is not my first language... far from it and I know I went a a little strong when I said that he was the best of the team in the defensive end.

What I wanted to say is that he is very effective when posted near the front of the net to cut passes and to neutralize the play. In that aspect he is at his best and I , think that's why he's effective with Subban.

My point is that's for four year in a row Gill was a go to guy for his team in the playoff and that's gotta mean something.

And I said all along that I think Hamrlik is better than Gill... but I understant de reasoning behind the decision to keep Gill.
Gill is with the Habs since only TWO seasons, like Cammy, Gomez, Moen and Gionta.

Hamrlik has played 4 full seasons with the club.

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