Vlasic's problem with the puck is that he takes far too long getting it settled on his stick and then looking where to send it. He never peeks to see who is open before the puck gets on his stick. Even when he was getting points, he was ice water on the PP. That says a lot about his offensive vision.
I did say almost. I was tempted to nip that in the bud as Murray is better at puck protection but his passing skills are pretty much equal to Vlasic's.
I don't really understand what you mean by ice water on the PP. That year he was on par with Blake and Ehrhoff in production. He wasn't the smoothest but he did well that year in that situation. It's tough to really speak on his offensive vision when the last couple years he has been prevented from showing that when he's taken off the 2nd unit. Now, he's justifiably taken off but it's not because of his vision. It's because of his puck-bobbling.
I did say almost. I was tempted to nip that in the bud as Murray is better at puck protection but his passing skills are pretty much equal to Vlasic's.
I don't really understand what you mean by ice water on the PP. That year he was on par with Blake and Ehrhoff in production. He wasn't the smoothest but he did well that year in that situation. It's tough to really speak on his offensive vision when the last couple years he has been prevented from showing that when he's taken off the 2nd unit. Now, he's justifiably taken off but it's not because of his vision. It's because of his puck-bobbling.
Not really on Murray's passing when you take into consideration that his puck protection gives him the time to look before passing. Given the chance to look, I would say they are about equal, but Vlasic doesn't take that time under pressure.
Not really on Murray's passing when you take into consideration that his puck protection gives him the time to look before passing. Given the chance to look, I would say they are about equal, but Vlasic doesn't take that time under pressure.
That stat doesn't mean much because you're taking expectations and actual talent/abilities in the player out of the conversation. Vlasic's not going to compare offensively to Boyle, Blake, and Ehrhoff. And when you compare that to the rest of the league, he's 43rd overall. But either way you look at it, he wasn't less than solid during that season in that situation.
As for Murray's passing skills, what I mean is the actual pass itself. Not the things leading up to it. Murray's vision is about equal to Vlasic's. The quality of the pass from his stick is on par. He can create more time to make the pass, sure. However, you're never going to see either of them do anything more than the basic d-to-d or outlet pass up to a forward. Nothing long and nothing fancy.
He hasn't even hit his prime yet. No he's not a top pairing defenseman, but he isn't paid like on, and won't be paid like one, so I really don't see why anyone would want to let him go.
I hate to break it to you guys, but this is his prime. He's shown ZERO penchant for improvement, and has been passed by Murray on the effectiveness scale.
This is his peak, it's as good as he's gonna get. And this year he'll be paired with the best Dman to ever play for the Sharks. This is it. All or nothing, now or never baby...
and this season will already be his 6th full season in the nhl, and he hasn't even put anything good together for a full season.
he has a good stick which helps him a bit, but he still hasn't perfected it yet where he can rely on it to stop other players on the rush (which he needs to unless that player is say eager coming down on him)
he isn't good against big guys, he isn't good against skilled stick handlers who have some kind of speed.
he can't make a pass to save his life under pressure, he doesn't know how to hit, he doesn't know how to take a hit to make a play, he can't use his body to clear the crease. he can't seem to get a shot through the net on a regular basis.
the only reason why a d-man like Murray gets praised while Vlasic gets blasted is because Murray hits but in almost all other capacities as a defenseman, Vlasic is better.
Wow, which game are you watching? All he does better than Vlasic is hit? Are you serial?
How about digging pucks out of corner or along the half walls? How about the physical game behind the net. Or in front of the net? How about his first pass? How about his slapshot? How about his ability to show up every year in the playoffs?
If all you think Murray does well is hit, then you have no idea what you're watching....
Whoever said Murray's passing is on par with Vlasic, you are dead wrong, Murray has the team's best outlet passing. He always makes the right decision and doesn't fail under pressure.
Whoever said Murray's passing is on par with Vlasic, you are dead wrong, Murray has the team's best outlet passing. He always makes the right decision and doesn't fail under pressure.
Whow, uhm no.
That would be Boyle, and now likely Burns. Boyle is the 2nd best passer on the team behind only the mighty passing machine that is Joe Thornton.
Murray has a pretty good outlet pass, but let's not get ridiculous here.
I agree with Vlasic probably not getting all that much better. I mean cmon he had Yawney for what seems like eons. Of course he's not gonna turn out right.
Boyle has a better outlet pass too, though he prefers to carry it. Boyle can make outlet passes Murray cannot even dream of attempting. So can Burns. I could see an argument that he's the best outlet passer of the bottom 4, but he's nowhere near Boyle or Burns.
Wow, which game are you watching? All he does better than Vlasic is hit? Are you serial?
How about digging pucks out of corner or along the half walls? How about the physical game behind the net. Or in front of the net? How about his first pass? How about his slapshot? How about his ability to show up every year in the playoffs?
If all you think Murray does well is hit, then you have no idea what you're watching....
I think I have to question which you're watching as well as your reading skills. I didn't say all Murray does well is hit. I said the only reason he gets praise and Vlasic gets criticized is that Murray hits and Vlasic doesn't. And I also said that Vlasic is better in most other capacities as a defenseman than Murray.
As for your list of Murray skills...first one can be countered by Vlasic being better at breaking up a cycle. The 2nd is overrated. The third is fine but doesn't do a whole lot of good when you can pass right through Murray. His first pass is no different in quality than Vlasic's. What is different is that he's better than Vlasic at protecting the puck and making time to make those passes. His slapshot? Big deal. He rarely uses it and has maybe created a goal once in his career. As for the playoffs, I'd love for you to support that with some evidence.
Murray is better with things that involve his size, Vlasic is better at things that involve using his stick.
Murray: Better in front of the net, better at protecting the puck around the boards, better outlet pass due to protecting the puck
Vlasic: Better at stopping odd-man rushes, better at clearing the puck, better at killing time along the boards, better at stopping the cycle.
Neither are exceptionally great defensive defenseman, but both very reliable on the second pairing. I'd only give the slight edge to Vlasic because he's a lot faster than Murray. You could work on defensive awareness, and Vlasic is already pretty good at reading plays. You can't really improve speed, and at this point, Murray is only going to get slower with age. So that is where I disagree with you Wedge. Giving Murray 3.1 and saying Vlasic isn't worth it and is in his prime is just Murray bias/Vlasic hatred at it's best. Vlasic is only 24. He has years to improve his offensive game. While his offensive instinct may never be as good as say Demers (though he was a forward in his junior days), it can be improved upon. His slapshot accuracy and power can also be worked on in the off-seasons. We've seen how reliable Vlasic could be in the regular season when he was paired with Blake. He was solid defensively and put up 30+ points. We've recently seen Vlasic's potential in this years playoffs, the Vlasic - Demers pairing was easily the best on multiple nights. That's not to take anything away from Murray, but he is 31, he's not going to get much better than he is right now, and he is probably going to lose a step in a few years due to his style of play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball
Boyle has a better outlet pass too, though he prefers to carry it. Boyle can make outlet passes Murray cannot even dream of attempting. So can Burns. I could see an argument that he's the best outlet passer of the bottom 4, but he's nowhere near Boyle or Burns.
Demers has a better outlet pass than Murray as well. On multiple occasions last season, I've seen Demers' pass lead to breakaways or odd-man rushes. I've yet to seen Murray or Vlasic do that, at least on a consistent basis.
Whoever said Murray's passing is on par with Vlasic, you are dead wrong, Murray has the team's best outlet passing. He always makes the right decision and doesn't fail under pressure.
Murray is better with this that involve his size, Vlasic is better at things that involve using his stick.
Murray: Better in front of the net, better at protecting the puck around the boards, better outlet pass due to protecting the puck
Vlasic: Better at stopping odd-man rushes, better at clearing the puck, better at killing time along the boards, better at stopping the cycle.
Neither are exceptionally great defensive defenseman, but both very reliable on the second pairing. I'd only give the slight edge to Vlasic because he's a lot faster than Murray. You could work on defensive awareness, and Vlasic is already pretty good at reading plays. You can't really improve speed, and at this point, Murray is only going to get slower with age. So that is where I disagree with you Wedge. Giving Murray 3.1 and saying Vlasic isn't worth it and is in his prime is just Murray bias/Vlasic hatred at it's best. Vlasic is only 24. He has years to improve his offensive game. While his offensive instinct may never be as good as say Demers (though he was a forward in his junior days), it can be taught and improved. His slapshot accuracy and power can also be worked on in the off-seasons. We've seen how reliable Vlasic could be in the regular season when he was paired with Blake. He was solid defensively and put up 30+ points. We've recently seen Vlasic's potential in this years playoffs, the Vlasic - Demers pairing was easily the best on multiple nights. That's not to take anything away from Murray, but he is 31, he's not going to get much better than he is right now, and he is probably going to lose a step in a few years due to his style of play.
I don't have too much problem with your post except for the highlighted statement.
Murray is not as slow as people think and Vlasic is not as fast as people think.
Vlasic is a decent skater. He has about the same speed as Boyle (average) but without the elite niftyness. He's average to above average. Nothing more. Murray has improved his skating to near average and is nifty-er than many people give him credit for. Although he'll probably never be great at acceleration from a dead stop.
And speed is the most overrated asset for a stay at home Dman anyway. You don't defend against speed with speed. You defend against speed with positioning. And Murray is the best positional Dman on the team.
Yes, better than Vlasic. Vlasic gets downgraded for his consistency issues. His brainfarts are legendary....
Yeah, after reading it, it sounded more exaggerated than I meant it to. Vlasic is an average skater. 4th or 5th fastest defenseman on the team (haven't seen enough of Vandy to judge). He's on par with like Huskins. However, Murray is slow. He's around the level of Clowe and Pavelski slow. And I agree that speed isn't really "needed" for stay at home d, but it helps. For example, when a d can't hold the puck in the zone and it leads to a break or odd man rush, Vlasic has a much higher chance than Murray to catch up to the forward. This hypothetical doesn't completely work since Murray is better at holding the zone, but you get the jist of it.
In the end, if we had to choose one to keep and one to use as bait, I'd keep Vlasic simply because of his age. That's not to take anything away from Murray, but the Sharks have a pretty good prospect pool of physical d in Petrecki, and big d in Doherty.
I disagree with this to the point that it's not worth continuing. It's obvious where you stand and it's obvious that you'd rather portray Vlasic as some awful defenseman rather than have an actual conversation about it.
Regardless of anyone's opinion of Vlasic, you have to admit he's the guy most likely to get moved in the next couple years. If one of the young guys (Petrekci/Doherty mainly) have a good showing in the NHL Vlasic becomes highly moveable. Hell if Demers improves his defense game further he could pretty easily replace Vlasic in short order.
You could in fact move him right now for that 3rd liner, replace him with Hannen, and it would really have no impact on the team. In a season or two replace Hannen with whichever young guy proved himself the most.
Vlasic has plateaued. And though he made some small gains last season his skill set right now is highly replaceable. Especially for a team that values size, strength and skating, none of which Vlasic provides.
Yeah, after reading it, it sounded more exaggerated than I meant it to. Vlasic is an average skater. 4th or 5th fastest defenseman on the team (haven't seen enough of Vandy to judge). He's on par with like Huskins. However, Murray is slow. He's around the level of Clowe and Pavelski slow. And I agree that speed isn't really "needed" for stay at home d, but it helps. For example, when a d can't hold the puck in the zone and it leads to a break or odd man rush, Vlasic has a much higher chance than Murray to catch up to the forward. This hypothetical doesn't completely work since Murray is better at holding the zone, but you get the jist of it.
In the end, if we had to choose one to keep and one to use as bait, I'd keep Vlasic simply because of his age. That's not to take anything away from Murray, but the Sharks have a pretty good prospect pool of physical d in Petrecki, and big d in Doherty.
Two things.
1. There are different types of fast. Murray's top speed is actually pretty decent. If Vlasic and Murray had a skating race with a full speed start, I think you'd be surprised how close the race is. He is also fairly nifty on his feet. His legs and hips are quite strong and allow for tight turns. I've seen opposing forwards try to dipsy doodle in the zone to gain space only to find Murray is right there with him. He's not Boyle by any means, but he's not bad.
Murray's problem is starting from a dead stop, but even that's gotten better. It'll never be good, but it's not the extreme liability it once was.
2. I'd be careful counting on Petrecki or Doherty in the near future. We need look no further than Murray to see how long it can take for a big Dman to properly develop. It's entirely possible neither one of them sees significant ice time till the 13-14 season.
Big men simply take longer to develop, as a rule...
Yeah, after reading it, it sounded more exaggerated than I meant it to. Vlasic is an average skater. 4th or 5th fastest defenseman on the team (haven't seen enough of Vandy to judge). He's on par with like Huskins. However, Murray is slow. He's around the level of Clowe and Pavelski slow. And I agree that speed isn't really "needed" for stay at home d, but it helps. For example, when a d can't hold the puck in the zone and it leads to a break or odd man rush, Vlasic has a much higher chance than Murray to catch up to the forward. This hypothetical doesn't completely work since Murray is better at holding the zone, but you get the jist of it.
In the end, if we had to choose one to keep and one to use as bait, I'd keep Vlasic simply because of his age. That's not to take anything away from Murray, but the Sharks have a pretty good prospect pool of physical d in Petrecki, and big d in Doherty.
They also need speed against chip and chase or dump and chase from the opposition. Vancouver's blueline speed helped negate the Sharks offensive game. If a dman can get back quickly enough, he doesn't even have to take a hit to start the puck the other way.
Regardless of anyone's opinion of Vlasic, you have to admit he's the guy most likely to get moved in the next couple years. If one of the young guys (Petrekci/Doherty mainly) have a good showing in the NHL Vlasic becomes highly moveable. Hell if Demers improves his defense game further he could pretty easily replace Vlasic in short order.
You could in fact move him right now for that 3rd liner, replace him with Hannen, and it would really have no impact on the team. In a season or two replace Hannen with whichever young guy proved himself the most.
Vlasic has plateaued. And though he made some small gains last season his skill set right now is highly replaceable. Especially for a team that values size, strength and skating, none of which Vlasic provides.
I dont think Vlasic has plateaued. In fact, I think the end of the season and into the playoffs saw him add a bit of a physical element to his game that has never been there in the past. I dont think you are ever going to get big hits from him, but if he can continue to be a bit of a pest, and if he is paired with a well skating offensive Dman that allows him to concentrate at what hes good at, I can see him improving in that facet further.
I dont think Vlasic has plateaued. In fact, I think the end of the season and into the playoffs saw him add a bit of a physical element to his game that has never been there in the past. I dont think you are ever going to get big hits from him, but if he can continue to be a bit of a pest, and if he is paired with a well skating offensive Dman that allows him to concentrate at what hes good at, I can see him improving in that facet further.
I said he had plateaued, and he had. Even with the slight improvement in physical play (which is good) he still hasn't progressed a whole lot in several seasons. Not saying he never will, but I do think he is more easily replaced at this point than anyone else on the defense. I would for instance rather move Vlasic than Braun.
His shot from the point is so bad, that it's actually a defensive liability. If your offense is so terrible that it causes problems for the team, it needs to be addressed.
