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07-25-2011, 06:31 AM
  #126
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Lets hope this is the beginning of something good revolving around winning....
Whatever other disagreements we may have, I think we can all get behind this.

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07-25-2011, 07:12 AM
  #127
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Whatever other disagreements we may have, I think we can all get behind this.
Here Here

or for those more graphically inclined:

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07-25-2011, 12:07 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Whatever other disagreements we may have, I think we can all get behind this.
Pete is always good for that epic one line comment that makes everyone realize what they're truly cheering for.

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07-25-2011, 12:19 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_with_faint_praise

I am not in the least bit interested in watching the fair-weather-only crowd spread revisionist bull****. If (G-d forbid) Jeff Carter doesn't work out here as hoped, I'm sure that'll all somehow be Howson's fault also, and that he'll be to blame for having picked up "the wrong guys" even though now we're shopping name brand instead of generic. Because G-d forbid your torches-and-pitchforks analysis turns out to somehow be wrong.

I say hell no. **** that. We are ENDING THIS **** RIGHT NOW. You people have gotten EVERYTHING YOU WANTED - the last GM fired, most of the front office replaced, the entire coaching staff replaced, the scouting office leaders replaced, every last player on the roster save Rick Nash replaced, and a bunch of name-brand guys added - and you're STILL, STILL wasting time coming up with these ******** snide-ass side comments.

The whole point of this whole "hockey fan" thing is to be entertained, not to complain on and on an on about every little thing you can find, even if the only thing you can find is prior records that no longer matter.

Seriously. Cut this **** out. Now.
Now that you put it in writing, i'm a bit worried the Howson made the moves that we all wanted. It may come as shock to all of you but (at least i hope) he has much greater hockey knowledge than we do. If he did every trade we wanted, signed every FA, and drafted every guy we wanted to take, well I think we would be an untamed grease fire of an organization.

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07-25-2011, 01:49 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Rimers stache View Post
Now that you put it in writing, i'm a bit worried the Howson made the moves that we all wanted. It may come as shock to all of you but (at least i hope) he has much greater hockey knowledge than we do. If he did every trade we wanted, signed every FA, and drafted every guy we wanted to take, well I think we would be an untamed grease fire of an organization.
Last season, virtually none of us wanted to stand pat, overpay Stralman, and pick up a washed up vet off the waiver wires. So as Costanza said: the opposite MUST be correct!

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07-25-2011, 02:24 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by GoChiefsGo View Post
Pete is always good for that epic one line comment that makes everyone realize what they're truly cheering for.
Pete's the ****'n man.

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07-25-2011, 03:01 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
...so real NHL GMs tank to get high picks. Good to know.

Given that development is a process that takes several years, I recommend withholding judgment on that for the time being. Especially since we've gotten two top-6 forwards (possibly three) and a top-4 defenseman (possibly two) out of the system so far already.
Either tank or trade up at the deadline. One may not like the prospective of "tanking" but the results are undeniable: Pittsburgh and Chicago have won cups. Tampa Bay came close. Detroit and Boston have good development programs, but to get where they are takes many years.

Essentially what I'm saying is shoulda/coulda/woulda. We needed higher picks in '06-'10 because we don't have the infrastructure to develop players selected #5-21 into top tier players. We don't have the personnel that Detroit and Boston have.

Are we better than we were last year? Yes, by a good margin. But we're not positioning for a cup run, we are simply trying to stay afloat. If all you want is to make the playoffs this year and win a game or two, then this is your team. If you want someone to rival Chicago or Pittsburgh in a few years, then Edmonton's route is more appropriate.

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07-25-2011, 03:45 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
Either tank or trade up at the deadline. One may not like the prospective of "tanking" but the results are undeniable: Pittsburgh and Chicago have won cups. Tampa Bay came close. Detroit and Boston have good development programs, but to get where they are takes many years.

Essentially what I'm saying is shoulda/coulda/woulda. We needed higher picks in '06-'10 because we don't have the infrastructure to develop players selected #5-21 into top tier players. We don't have the personnel that Detroit and Boston have.

Are we better than we were last year? Yes, by a good margin. But we're not positioning for a cup run, we are simply trying to stay afloat. If all you want is to make the playoffs this year and win a game or two, then this is your team. If you want someone to rival Chicago or Pittsburgh in a few years, then Edmonton's route is more appropriate.
My only response to this is that you never tank on purpose. Never.

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07-25-2011, 04:15 PM
  #134
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My only response to this is that you never tank on purpose. Never.
Never.

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07-25-2011, 04:18 PM
  #135
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Never.
EVER

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07-25-2011, 04:45 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_with_faint_praise

I am not in the least bit interested in watching the fair-weather-only crowd spread revisionist bull****. If (G-d forbid) Jeff Carter doesn't work out here as hoped, I'm sure that'll all somehow be Howson's fault also, and that he'll be to blame for having picked up "the wrong guys" even though now we're shopping name brand instead of generic. Because G-d forbid your torches-and-pitchforks analysis turns out to somehow be wrong.

I say hell no. **** that. We are ENDING THIS **** RIGHT NOW. You people have gotten EVERYTHING YOU WANTED - the last GM fired, most of the front office replaced, the entire coaching staff replaced, the scouting office leaders replaced, every last player on the roster save Rick Nash replaced, and a bunch of name-brand guys added - and you're STILL, STILL wasting time coming up with these ******** snide-ass side comments.

The whole point of this whole "hockey fan" thing is to be entertained, not to complain on and on an on about every little thing you can find, even if the only thing you can find is prior records that no longer matter.

Seriously. Cut this **** out. Now.
Close, but not quite there. Howson has had 4 years to get where he is at. One off season (despite it being a very, very good one) does not erase everything else up to this point. A more proactive beginning might have fetched better results now. Ot could have given us a stronger defense at this point, to where Wiz would be the finishing touch, not the starting point just for a hypothetical. We don't know. All we know is that Howson has had several years to get here.
I do agree, however, that if individuals complain that Carter or Wiz or other moves were the wrong people, that will be some revisionist work done. Howson took the best players that he could at the time to fill the team's biggest holes. The moves that he has made this off season were the right ones.

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07-25-2011, 05:16 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by WinNow View Post
My only response to this is that you never tank on purpose. Never.
In the real world, professional sports teams "tank" every season. They become "sellers" near the trade deadline. They bring younger players up and get them some experience or "seasoning". This occurs every year in all professional sports leagues. Many of those that "tank" this year become contenders a few years down the line.

In each case, the objective is to make the team better in the future. This is done at the cost of knowingly obtaining less than the best possible results at the present. Part of the "reward" is often a better draft position.

Maybe we don't call it "tanking" until the actions are no longer subtle (or are done by a team we don't care for), but the intent is still the same....

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07-25-2011, 05:35 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by CBJ103 View Post
In the real world, professional sports teams "tank" every season. They become "sellers" near the trade deadline. They bring younger players up and get them some experience or "seasoning". This occurs every year in all professional sports leagues. Many of those that "tank" this year become contenders a few years down the line.

In each case, the objective is to make the team better in the future. This is done at the cost of knowingly obtaining less than the best possible results at the present. Part of the "reward" is often a better draft position.

Maybe we don't call it "tanking" until the actions are no longer subtle (or are done by a team we don't care for), but the intent is still the same....
And that's why I'm not on a professional sports team (among many other reasons ). I couldn't bring myself to do it.

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07-25-2011, 06:02 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_with_faint_praise

I am not in the least bit interested in watching the fair-weather-only crowd spread revisionist bull****. If (G-d forbid) Jeff Carter doesn't work out here as hoped, I'm sure that'll all somehow be Howson's fault also, and that he'll be to blame for having picked up "the wrong guys" even though now we're shopping name brand instead of generic. Because G-d forbid your torches-and-pitchforks analysis turns out to somehow be wrong.

I say hell no. **** that. We are ENDING THIS **** RIGHT NOW. You people have gotten EVERYTHING YOU WANTED - the last GM fired, most of the front office replaced, the entire coaching staff replaced, the scouting office leaders replaced, every last player on the roster save Rick Nash replaced, and a bunch of name-brand guys added - and you're STILL, STILL wasting time coming up with these ******** snide-ass side comments.

The whole point of this whole "hockey fan" thing is to be entertained, not to complain on and on an on about every little thing you can find, even if the only thing you can find is prior records that no longer matter.

Seriously. Cut this **** out. Now.
Viqsi...I've been anti-firing for a long time, but I've gotta disagree with the general theme of your post. You seem to be saying that Howson shouldn't be fired because he made a bunch of big name signings. That's sort of the anti-thesis of the argument that you (and I) were making 2 months ago.

If this team flops, I'd hope that the pro-firing crowd wouldn't resort to revisionism because by then, Howson will have been around 5 years. A bad 11-12 will pretty much validate the idea that Howson doesn't know what he's doing. These moves have been nice, but I sincerely hope that the powers that be make their decisions on Howson's job status based solely on how the team does on the ice, not on how columnists rate our offseason. 5 years is a solid sample size for GMs. By that point, the drafts made earlier in a GMs tenure will have matured, the bad contracts your predecessor signed will be off the books, and it will finally be his team. Howson should be held to the same standard.

As the all-star break rolls around and this team is out of it, Howson should be fired. What happened this summer shouldn't have bought him any time.

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07-25-2011, 06:14 PM
  #140
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well said Sam...I don't care if he stay or if he goes...i just want the Jackets to field a winner...the defense still scares me, i'm not sure enough was done there...but baby steps...

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07-25-2011, 07:28 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by CBJ103 View Post
In the real world, professional sports teams "tank" every season. They become "sellers" near the trade deadline. They bring younger players up and get them some experience or "seasoning". This occurs every year in all professional sports leagues. Many of those that "tank" this year become contenders a few years down the line.

In each case, the objective is to make the team better in the future. This is done at the cost of knowingly obtaining less than the best possible results at the present. Part of the "reward" is often a better draft position.

Maybe we don't call it "tanking" until the actions are no longer subtle (or are done by a team we don't care for), but the intent is still the same....
Go back to where this discussion started. The suggestion was made that Howson was a poor GM because he never put his team in a position to draft in the top 3. The resposne was "you mean tank?", to which the reply, generally, was "yes." People took umbrage with the notion. What you're describing here isn't the same.

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07-25-2011, 07:41 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Go back to where this discussion started. The suggestion was made that Howson was a poor GM because he never put his team in a position to draft in the top 3. The resposne was "you mean tank?", to which the reply, generally, was "yes." People took umbrage with the notion. What you're describing here isn't the same.
Exactly. The moves CBJ103 describes are not designed to lose as many games as possible in order to improve draft position, they are adjustments to the reality of the team's current situation. Teams that make moves like that would be thrilled if, in response to them, the "seasoning" had immediate results and the future became now.

Tanking is the deliberate scuttling of a team and a season and is almost never done. Not to say the potential isn't recognized, though; otherwise, there'd be no need for draft lotteries!

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07-26-2011, 09:53 AM
  #143
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This is actually perfectly accurate, and is why we're not too concerned about Nash and Carter being on the same line.

I'm thinking then that it wouldn't be too outlandish to have him on the top line with Nash and Carter. I was concerned about lack of speed, but Nash and Carter can get the puck into the zone just fine, or catch up to Prospal moving up if need be.

If we really need to speed things up, we can put Vermette on their wing.
Prospal/Carter/Nash could be a deadly line downlow if they work. Obviously there are times players just dont click for whatever reason, even if they seem like they would on paper....but if they do, that line could be one of the best in the league. Dont worry about Prospal's lack of speed. As long as he isnt that much worse than a couple years ago, he makes up for it with positional play and intelligence....plus Carter worked out well with Lupul and also Knuble at times. Neither of them are the best skaters out there.

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IMO he played right with Lindros and LeClair some time ago.
I dont remember this (and I didnt miss a game of Lindros' career in Philly) but he may have done so for a few games here and there....Renberg, Jones, Zubrus and even Trent Klatt played there a decent amount of time.

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Thanks. Given the flexibility at center for the CBJ this year it will be nice to have another solid player if the first one gets tossed at the dot. I would like to see us even more aggressive with our faceoffs and having a "second C" on each line could be a huge benefit.

Smart players tend to be decent PK guys but I agree the mobility factor has to play in as well. That's one aree I'm a little concerned about....the CBJ PK may only be average at best looking at our current/potential personnel.

Thanks again.
Carter is good on the PK so he will help there. He is a solid 50% on faceoffs....not spectacular but solid.

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07-26-2011, 11:28 AM
  #144
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Viqsi...I've been anti-firing for a long time, but I've gotta disagree with the general theme of your post. You seem to be saying that Howson shouldn't be fired because he made a bunch of big name signings. That's sort of the anti-thesis of the argument that you (and I) were making 2 months ago.

If this team flops, I'd hope that the pro-firing crowd wouldn't resort to revisionism because by then, Howson will have been around 5 years. A bad 11-12 will pretty much validate the idea that Howson doesn't know what he's doing. These moves have been nice, but I sincerely hope that the powers that be make their decisions on Howson's job status based solely on how the team does on the ice, not on how columnists rate our offseason. 5 years is a solid sample size for GMs. By that point, the drafts made earlier in a GMs tenure will have matured, the bad contracts your predecessor signed will be off the books, and it will finally be his team. Howson should be held to the same standard.

As the all-star break rolls around and this team is out of it, Howson should be fired. What happened this summer shouldn't have bought him any time.
I'm honestly not trying to comment at all about whether or not he should keep his job. My comments are restricted entirely to whether or not the debate should even be taking place right now, and the maddening nature of some people who can evidently never be satisfied.

I'm not saying "he shouldn't be fired 'cause he shops name brand now", I'm saying "hon, he gave you your name-brand, why the hell are you still throwing insults and snide comments?" I'm saying that folks have what they wanted, so kindly shut up, stand up, and get behind the team for once, rather than spend the offseason kvetching. Folks will have plenty of time to go back to those ways after the first loss.


For the record, if (G-d forbid) things do go sour, I'd be basically in a "I don't like it, but it's probably time for him to step down" mode. I honestly think he recognizes that his first plan didn't pan out and he's shifting strategies, and I very much respect that sort of self-awareness and still have faith in his general competence, so I would argue for (at least) another year even so... but I recognize I would be in the extreme minority in doing so.


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The long and short of it is this: Some of us are no longer fans just to be entertained, we want to see a winner.
With all due respect and no insult or dismissal intended (seriously, really)... I personally cannot comprehend how one could continue to be a hockey fan if it doesn't entertain you. It just sort of mystifies me.

That said, I share your hopes w/r/t this offseason turning out for the best.

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07-26-2011, 11:55 AM
  #145
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My apologies to all, while I made the snide comment about Howson, it was still in line that I liked the signing of Prospal, but still had concerns about the defense, it certainly wasnt intended to hijack and turn it into a Howson debate thread. I made the comment only because it still frustrates me that we wasted the last 2 years waiting for Howson to show that he can make deals in this league ( I know about Vermette, but not much since), as the season starts, that should be in the past. Imagine if he made these kinds of moves after the playoff year (and im not saying specifically Carter and Wiz, but top level NHLers) and not waiting until his job was on the line, we could possibly be talking about conference finals this year and not just a return to the playoffs.

But anyway, Im excited thinking about a Nash/Carter/Prospal line. The debate out there is having Nash and Carter on separate lines, but as we all know, lines stay together when they work.....so you need a goal, thats the line you throw out there, if theyre struggling as a line, break them up and search for some chemistry. But the good news is, we now have a legitimate #1 line.....took 11 years, but better late then never!

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07-26-2011, 12:34 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by BluejacketNut View Post
My apologies to all, while I made the snide comment about Howson, it was still in line that I liked the signing of Prospal, but still had concerns about the defense, it certainly wasnt intended to hijack and turn it into a Howson debate thread.
Fair enough; I'm just frustrated about folks still bringing some of these things up.

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I made the comment only because it still frustrates me that we wasted the last 2 years waiting for Howson to show that he can make deals in this league ( I know about Vermette, but not much since), as the season starts, that should be in the past. Imagine if he made these kinds of moves after the playoff year (and im not saying specifically Carter and Wiz, but top level NHLers) and not waiting until his job was on the line, we could possibly be talking about conference finals this year and not just a return to the playoffs.
I honestly disagree with this assessment on many levels, but we've hijacked the thread enough.

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But anyway, Im excited thinking about a Nash/Carter/Prospal line. The debate out there is having Nash and Carter on separate lines, but as we all know, lines stay together when they work.....so you need a goal, thats the line you throw out there, if theyre struggling as a line, break them up and search for some chemistry. But the good news is, we now have a legitimate #1 line.....took 11 years, but better late then never!
I'd replace "legitimate" with "scary". I don't always equate the two, personally. But, hey, whatever words one chooses it's still awesome to have.

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07-26-2011, 03:05 PM
  #147
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Some consistent winning will take care of that.

It's ok to agree to disagree.

If that line clicks, Awesome will be a good term for the line.....

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07-26-2011, 03:57 PM
  #148
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If that line clicks, Awesome will be a good term for the line.....
Just think about them on a power play with bombs being fired from both a left-shooting Clitsome and a right-shooting Wisniewski. Could be a PP unlike anything we've seen before in C-Bus.

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07-26-2011, 04:19 PM
  #149
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Just think about them on a power play with bombs being fired from both a left-shooting Clitsome and a right-shooting Wisniewski. Could be a PP unlike anything we've seen before in C-Bus.
An effective one?

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07-26-2011, 04:46 PM
  #150
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This goes without saying..

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Just think about them on a power play with bombs being fired from both a left-shooting Clitsome and a right-shooting Wisniewski. Could be a PP unlike anything we've seen before in C-Bus.
but you mean none seen wearing Blue Jacket Uni's right?

Carter Nash
Prospal
Clitsome Wiz

Kubalik Umberger
Vermette
Brassard Russell

We could actually get some blue line scoring this year.. bonus!! I've added Kubalik because he is our version of Holmstrom

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