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Partying prompted parting?

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07-25-2011, 03:21 PM
  #151
Beef Invictus
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Kadri + intangibles is something to behold, but I don't think Giroux alone cuts it then. I don't think Burke would feel quite comfortable without a few bad-decent prospects in the mix. It's a shame Klotz left us for a bigger payday. He would've been the perfect asset to push Burke over the edge to getting this deal done.
Fine. Giroux + JVR, and Schenn's right leg.

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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Ok beef, why do you think that Richards and Carter were traded.

Lavy and Bob are hardly going to throw their own players under a bus are they lol.
They were traded for a variety of reasons more complicated than "They DRINK!!!???11."

They failed to live up to organizational expectations, and at the same time the organization handled the situation poorly at best, failing to resolve conflicts and such...and possibly even aggravating the situation through their actions/policies. Also, Snider getting very impatient and old is possibly a factor too.

That's my thinking.

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07-25-2011, 03:26 PM
  #152
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So a variety of reasons but then you go on to blame the flyers for not dealing with the situation at hand. Don't you think that the players should of dealt with the "situation" themselves.

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07-25-2011, 03:28 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Let me quote myself from Offseason Thread:

"We have no proof they were drinking that heavily. If Lappy and Bob are correct, then they weren't.

Based on the info we have, it's just as safe to say that Pronger (who was known to be a divisive guy before he got here) caused a split in the locker room. When Lavi came in, he discussed the team with Homer, a recovered alcoholic who can't be trusted to have an unbiased view of drinking. Working together, they agreed to try and get the whole team to quit drinking. This only deepened the divide. Lavi, a "my way or the highway" guy, was incapable of diplomatically resolving the situation, leading to big trades.

That's just as plausible as "They were hopeless drunks!" We simply still don't have enough concrete info to firmly say what happened, and so I still stick by "Both the organization AND the players are to blame." This is likely a VERY complicated issue, with more facets than we are giving it here."
I can't believe you reposted this completely fabricated delusioinal drivel. Really, that's all you got?

Lappy and Bob, as confirmation the drinking wasn't a problem?

Lappy was clearly just being nice and trying to brush it off and down play it. On the Flyers' website there is a video of how excited he and everyone else is by the offseason changes.

Bob? Bob said the players here are professional and don't come to the rink drunk. Wow, that's a ringing endorsement of the Flyers - at least we know they are saints in comparison to the vodka soaked dregs of the KHL. Now that's what I call evidence.

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07-25-2011, 03:29 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
So a variety of reasons but then you go on to blame the flyers for not dealing with the situation at hand. Don't you think that the players should of dealt with the "situation" themselves.
Obviously they should have strung up Carter and Richards and poured bottle after bottle of jagermeister down their throat until they vowed never to drink again.

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07-25-2011, 03:29 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
So a variety of reasons but then you go on to blame the flyers for not dealing with the situation at hand. Don't you think that the players should of dealt with the "situation" themselves.
So you think it's ONLY the players fault, and the organization has zero blame?

I'm saying the organization made poor choices (surprise! that NEVER happens ) when dealing with the situation, and the players did the same thing. Both sides are to blame. I'm not sure why that's an absurd notion.

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07-25-2011, 03:30 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
So a variety of reasons but then you go on to blame the flyers for not dealing with the situation at hand. Don't you think that the players should of dealt with the "situation" themselves.
Why should they, it's not their fault? They are stars on decade-contracts. They can kill as many coaches as they want.

What are they gonna do, trade them both?

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07-25-2011, 03:30 PM
  #157
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How long until Colorado ships off their dead weight?


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07-25-2011, 03:31 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I can't believe you reposted this completely fabricated delusioinal drivel. Really, that's all you got?

Lappy and Bob, as confirmation the drinking wasn't a problem?

Lappy was clearly just being nice and trying to brush it off and down play it. On the Flyers' website there is a video of how excited he and everyone else is by the offseason changes.

Bob? Bob said the players here are professional and don't come to the rink drunk. Wow, that's a ringing endorsement of the Flyers - at least we know they are saints in comparison to the vodka soaked dregs of the KHL. Now that's what I call evidence.
It's no different than what you post. You take what is said in the media, and derive a story.

I took what was in the media, and derived a story. It's just as valid as what you hypothesize.

You took vague half-stories and tried to paint a factual picture using your own outside opinions, and then present it as established reality. I did the same thing, to illustrate to you how that looks to others.

The moral here: saying "IM RIGHT" based on guesswork cobbled together from media quotes (especially from the Philly media) is stupid.

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07-25-2011, 03:31 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Let me quote myself from Offseason Thread:

"We have no proof they were drinking that heavily. If Lappy and Bob are correct, then they weren't.

Based on the info we have, it's just as safe to say that Pronger (who was known to be a divisive guy before he got here) caused a split in the locker room. When Lavi came in, he discussed the team with Homer, a recovered alcoholic who can't be trusted to have an unbiased view of drinking. Working together, they agreed to try and get the whole team to quit drinking. This only deepened the divide. Lavi, a "my way or the highway" guy, was incapable of diplomatically resolving the situation, leading to big trades.

That's just as plausible as "They were hopeless drunks!" We simply still don't have enough concrete info to firmly say what happened, and so I still stick by "Both the organization AND the players are to blame." This is likely a VERY complicated issue, with more facets than we are giving it here."
Wouldn't Homer be the only one with enough personal experience to understand how this could effect a team? Homer has been accused of being a person who bends over backwards to give multiple chances to those who may have abused a prior chance. I believe those who are recovering alcoholics understand more than most how people must live their own lives independent of what those around them may do... They cannot live in a vacuum, but do have to manage who they associate with... I'm not so sure that Homer would have been in on Lavy's decision, but I do believe that Homer of all people would have made sure that the two were not wrongfully treated for their bad habits... if that was in fact the case.

Personally I don't believe they were hopeless drunks... I just believe that the Flyers lost faith in having them in the core for the next decade plus, and decided to make the move before the No Trade Clauses kick in and they controlled matters.


Last edited by Sawdalite: 07-25-2011 at 03:38 PM.
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07-25-2011, 03:45 PM
  #160
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why is everyone just focused on booze? it said "partying"

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07-25-2011, 03:53 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's no different than what you post. You take what is said in the media, and derive a story.

I took what was in the media, and derived a story. It's just as valid as what you hypothesize.

You took vague half-stories and tried to paint a factual picture using your own outside opinions, and then present it as established reality. I did the same thing, to illustrate to you how that looks to others.

The moral here: saying "IM RIGHT" based on guesswork cobbled together from media quotes (especially from the Philly media) is stupid.
You can't simply continue to overlook the facts when presenting your points. Something rather large happens when you trade two players on 10+ year contracts.

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07-25-2011, 03:54 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You can't simply continue to overlook the facts when presenting your points. Something rather large happens when you trade two players on 10+ year contracts.
Yeah, I'm not overlooking that at all. I've said several times that players are to blame. All I'm saying is that the organization isn't spotless here either.

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07-25-2011, 03:56 PM
  #163
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The whole "drinking" and "partying" thing has really got out of control with the media in my opinion.....I grew up in south Jersey not far from Rexys where the old Stanley cup teams hanged out etc.....Them cats drank and partied with the best of them and won 2 cups ! They were a close knit bunch that played hard and partied hard.....Heck, half of em smoked cigarettes too ! Phillys media is more out of control than Ritchie or Carter or any of the Flyers ever where.

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07-25-2011, 03:58 PM
  #164
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If my boss came to me and tried to make me put my name on a board and pledge not to drink alcohol for any length of time, I wouldn't sign my name just because of the principle. I am of the opinion that a person can do whatever they'd like after work hours, as long as they aren't doing anything illegal and it doesn't affect their work performance. If this "pledge" is what caused a locker room rift, then that is sad... really sad.

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07-25-2011, 03:58 PM
  #165
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If the partying was such a big deal, why sign Carter to a freakin' 11 year extension?

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07-25-2011, 03:59 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
why is everyone just focused on booze? it said "partying"
The article was about Laviolette actually expecting grown men to pledge not to drink. The sensationalizing media often uses "partying" to imply that Richards and Carter drink to excess. Of which we have no proof.

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07-25-2011, 04:09 PM
  #167
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If the partying was such a big deal, why sign Carter to a freakin' 11 year extension?
Cause he's such a fun lovin' guy?

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07-25-2011, 04:15 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
The whole "drinking" and "partying" thing has really got out of control with the media in my opinion.....I grew up in south Jersey not far from Rexys where the old Stanley cup teams hanged out etc.....Them cats drank and partied with the best of them and won 2 cups ! They were a close knit bunch that played hard and partied hard.....Heck, half of em smoked cigarettes too ! Phillys media is more out of control than Ritchie or Carter or any of the Flyers ever where.
Well, the game has changed slightly since the 70's. But that is also a point to consider here, I mean how many games did Richards play the past two seasons? I had slightly better stamina at 24-26 years old than I have now, but I do doubt that you can play at his level and be out partying constantly. That doesn't mean he couldn't have taken care of his body better, it just means that the reports of their (or athletes in general actually) "excessive partying" should be taken with a few lumps of salt.

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07-25-2011, 04:19 PM
  #169
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Well, the game has changed slightly since the 70's. But that is also a point to consider here, I mean how many games did Richards play the past two seasons? I had slightly better stamina at 24-26 years old than I have now, but I do doubt that you can play at his level and be out partying constantly. That doesn't mean he couldn't have taken care of his body better, it just means that the reports of their (or athletes in general actually) "excessive partying" should be taken with a few lumps of salt.
197. Bum.

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07-25-2011, 04:32 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Really. Hockey players generally play 3 times a week. In-between those games they are almost always training. These guys are paid millions of dollars to be responsible athletes.

Is it really that strange to think that they shouldn't be drinking through the season. Makes you wonder how bad it was for them to bring in the policy in the first place. I've never heard of a team doing this ever. If you can't go a month without drinking, then you have a problem.
They are almost always training in between games? No they're not. They work out and they practice. But they have free time. In which they're entitled to have a social life. Not be hermits and sit in their house in the dark watching TV alone, until the next game or practice.

Let's get another thing straight. The team can't institute a "policy" to the players to stop drinking. There is a CBA and a players Union. Why should the players have to stop drinking if they enjoy going out socially and having a few beers? This was a mistake by Laviolette


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I guess you missed the picture of Simmonds with a huge bottle of Bacardi white that's been going around. Or the rep coming out of Columbus that Voracek is a party animal. Drinking and hockey have gone hand in hand for generations and it isn't going to stop just because 2 Flyers were traded.
And pictures of Briere and Giroux with the same porn star that Richards and Carter have been photographed with. With Briere looking quite intoxicated.

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Originally Posted by Viller View Post
Theres a difference between 2 beers and getting drunk...
There certainly is

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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Management was concerned about their "habits" and didn't like the idea of 20 years of NTC between the two.

The 2nd priority was the sweet return they got back

And 3rd was the cap it freed up.

That's the order of it, whether people on here like it or not.

That's the entire story.
I would put thier "habits" last and low in priority, and the least important factor in the reasoning behind the trades.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'd be pretty disgruntled about my boss telling me what to do in my free time, especially if it isn't affecting my job.

I wouldn't say that it was affecting how either Carter or Richards did their job. Richards' wrist injury sure as hell did though.

This is exactly the kind of team policy/initiative that is ONLY going to cause a split in the locker room or between players and coach, and it strikes me as being very ill advised.
I couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As I said, if it was such a glaring problem, this was a terrible way to try and fix it. Not only does it not help any problem guys stop drinking (If it truly WAS a problem), but it also instantly divides the room into two groups.

It takes any problem that might exist, and makes it worse.
Again, totally agree.

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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
A couple years ago, long before Lavy was hired, Homer took Carter and Richards for ride in his car to give them a talking to, in the wake of the Olde City Crew articles. Do you remember that? Then he traded Upshall and later Lupul, to reinforce the point.

This has been going on for a long time. Laviolette was hired to change the atmosphere of the room. He failed because he didn't have the Captain onside.

It WAS TRULY a problem, or they would not have FRIGGIN' TRADED THEM.

Laviolette wasn't trying to divide and conquer the room. He was trying to get some entitled young guys to grow up.

So he tried a device to get them to commit to the team in front of the team. They told him to shove it. Six times acc. to the article.

I think it all came down to the whole organization just getting tired of it.

I think we know what Timonen told Homer in the post season interview. Apparently they didn't just have tea.

In the end, they wanted to 'change the culture,' so they replaced two guys. What does that say about how those two guys were perceived by the insiders?
Larry, I have the utmost respect for you as a poster, and I normally agree with most of what you say. But I don't here. The trades were Hockey related in my opinion. And this issue wasn't the driving force behind the trades.

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Yeah, they told him to shove it because it was a pretty damned confrontational way to fix the "problem," which by some accounts (Lappy, Bobrovsky) was largely under control.

BTW, I love how none of this was an issue during the Finals run last year, or in the offseason following it, or while this team was dominant for half the season. Funny how this sort of thing is only a problem when things go poorly.

I doubt Richards and Carter are blameless. But from what I can gather, the organization didn't do such a hot job here either.
Absolutely. A Coach doesn't belong in a players private life outside the rink. This was a very bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
"Write your name on this board, and together we can work to get it on a Stanley Cup."

"No, I like drinking too much."

Not that I don't like Richards and Carter, but that seems a bit childish. This is what you've wanted since you were a kid. This is the Stanley Cup. Other people chatting it up on pathetic message boards have dreams regularly of being where you are now. Even if it's "meaningless" to give up alcohol and it's not effecting your production on the ice, why even fight it? It seems really immature.

It feels like a highschool football coup. So much so in fact, I feel really stupid that it's come to this.
There was no reason for them to do so, if it wasn't affecting them on the ice. And I don't beleive that it was. What did Laviolette give up?
They can work towards winning a Cup without putting thier name on a board. It was completely unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I'll re-iterate. These guys are paid millions of dollars a year to play a game to the best of their ability, show good faith in the organisation and be model professionals. When your coach asks you to do something, you suck it up and get on with it. It's not like he was asking for the world here.

Richards dropped the ball not signing up. As a captain it's his duty. The fact that this rule had to be brought in really sums things up. You can bet your arse Smith, Pronger, Hatcher, Dejardens, Forsberg, Gagne ect ect would of signed up.

Richards and Carter were given a significant amount of chances to change things around. You mentioned previously that it's funny how these things only appear when the team loses.

These things have been going on for years. Homer publically talked about splitting up the rat pack, trading players away, the fact that he's personally had to walk into the dressing room MULTIPLE times. Don't close your eyes and put fingers in your ears. These issues have been around a long time.
A player is required to do what a Coach wants him to do at the rink and in the locker room. They are not required to do what the Coach wants them to do with regards to their personell lives. As Captain, Richards job is to lead around the team and on the ice. Not to lead away from the team in his personal live. As long as it isn't affecting the team, that's no one's business but his.
GM's go into the dressing rooms all the time to talk to the team when a team is underperforming. Do you kow what causes all these locker room rifts? Losing. No what cures them? Winning!

After hearing this, I'm less of a fan of Laviolette

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07-25-2011, 04:54 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
The whole "drinking" and "partying" thing has really got out of control with the media in my opinion.....I grew up in south Jersey not far from Rexys where the old Stanley cup teams hanged out etc.....Them cats drank and partied with the best of them and won 2 cups ! They were a close knit bunch that played hard and partied hard.....Heck, half of em smoked cigarettes too ! Phillys media is more out of control than Ritchie or Carter or any of the Flyers ever where.
I also was in that area during those Cup years and beyond and personally witness them out at the drinking establishment... often... I tried to compare those days with what we are getting from the Old City Gang escapades -- taking into consideration there were no phone cameras nor Twitter to memorialize the events -- The So Jersey outings seem to be more of a social thing and you often saw bunches of them... and when you ran across one alone they would often be willing to chat away about all things hockey.

And many of the players were married and at times had their wives with them... and they were for the most part older and more mature 'innocent' Canadian guy... not to say that they didn't hang one on at times and get drunk.

From what I see and read the Old Ciy Gang are more partyers than socializers... and they are single and out to do what most all young single dudes have done when they have expendable cash -- something the old Bullies and other era Flyers really did have as much of -- I take nothing away from what I understand went on in Old City and Ocean City (OCx2)... I can see myself doing the same in their situations... as long as it didn't effect the old paying jobs.

I believe lot of the pictures were staged, such as the booze bottle chugging with the cap still on, and I see them as sewing their wild oats... and that is fine to a reasonable point, and I don't say that they passed that point, not at all.

What I am saying is that IMO the two era's players are not the same situations... IMO there is so much more that is there and we don't know about... and had it not been for all this other unknown non-partying crap we may never have discussed the drinking/partying/socializing in the same manner we are here... In the past we would just wink and talk about seeing Clarkie, or Schultz, or MacLeish, or Orest, or Propper, or McCrimmon, or yada yada yada.

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07-25-2011, 04:58 PM
  #172
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Anyone else think that one of the guys was most definitely Michael Leighton? We dicked him over and it sounds like something a bitter player would do to get back at the organization.

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07-25-2011, 04:59 PM
  #173
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Anyone else think that one of the guys was most definitely Michael Leighton? We dicked him over and it sounds like something a bitter player would do to get back at the organization.
He dicked himself over.

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07-25-2011, 05:01 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Anyone else think that one of the guys was most definitely Michael Leighton? We dicked him over and it sounds like something a bitter player would do to get back at the organization.
I don't see how the Flyers dicked him over.

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07-25-2011, 05:05 PM
  #175
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Anyone else think that one of the guys was most definitely Michael Leighton? We dicked him over and it sounds like something a bitter player would do to get back at the organization.
Anybody else you'd like to throw under the bus without any knowledge while you're at it?

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