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Offseason Movement Thread III (Acq./Rstr. Bldg./Cap Mgt.)

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08-29-2011, 09:42 AM
  #251
CapsWolverinesUSA
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I really have given up on McPhee. IMO he will never win a Cup as GM. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll eat a platter of crow. But if I'm right are you guys gonna buy me beers? How many years should Ted give him?
Can't say I understand the McPhee hate. Other than maybe being slow on the draw to fire the coach, what can you fault the guy for since the lockout? He's drafted like a beast, he's consistently made efforts to improve the team (both in UFA signings and deadline deals), he's kept our core players, he's made some really strong trades and made very few mistakes in terms of giving away value.

What is it about him that you have "really given up on"? If you were to replace him, what area of GMing would you be most focused on an upgrade?

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08-29-2011, 10:27 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
Can't say I understand the McPhee hate. Other than maybe being slow on the draw to fire the coach, what can you fault the guy for since the lockout? He's drafted like a beast, he's consistently made efforts to improve the team (both in UFA signings and deadline deals), he's kept our core players, he's made some really strong trades and made very few mistakes in terms of giving away value.

What is it about him that you have "really given up on"? If you were to replace him, what area of GMing would you be most focused on an upgrade?
Especially if you look at how he's improved since the early years. The only warts on him may be that he tends to overpay bottom 6ers a bit. But that's still infinitely more forgivable than what a lot of other GMs overpay with dollars and term.

There are very few with such an exemplary drafting and trading record of late.

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08-29-2011, 11:26 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
Can't say I understand the McPhee hate. Other than maybe being slow on the draw to fire the coach, what can you fault the guy for since the lockout? He's drafted like a beast, he's consistently made efforts to improve the team (both in UFA signings and deadline deals), he's kept our core players, he's made some really strong trades and made very few mistakes in terms of giving away value.

What is it about him that you have "really given up on"? If you were to replace him, what area of GMing would you be most focused on an upgrade?

The coach. He has never been good at hiring coaches. Bruce was thoroughly outclassed the last two playoffs. What makes McPhee think it'll be any different this year?

The center position. Weak there again.

I readily acknowledge the goods things. Carlson, Alzner, Green. Edit: Kuz looks like a great pick-up, too.

The trades haven't been so hot have they? I liked McPhee's trade for Grier but then he traded him away. The Lang trade got us Green and half a season of Hannan. The Wideman trade hasn't worked out so far.

I don't hate McPhee anyway. He has improved the franchise. But has he built a playoff winner? No he has not. Why would anyone think he can do that? That's what I can't understand.


Last edited by Atlas: 08-29-2011 at 11:36 AM.
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08-29-2011, 11:34 AM
  #254
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I'll be nicer this year if you guys will give me your time tables for McPhee and Bruce. How many more playoff fails before you become a McPhee pessimist or hater? Be specific. 1 more year? 3 more?

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08-29-2011, 12:02 PM
  #255
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1 year. 3 years. commit now!!. The real world, of course, doesnt work that way. honestly, things have to play out.

for instance. a simple question.
* Do you think the Caps had a reasonable chance to win the cup with three rookie goalies, a shut down defense pair made up of two rookies, and a rookie center playing a primary role?
my answer is no. it was no last year at this point. i dont blame boudreau for failing to win with that lineup. i can blame mcphee for deciding that the franchise was better off establishing those young players instead of going full out to win a cup. but that is a different debate.

Next question.
* Do you believe the Caps were likely to go far in the playoffs with all three puck moving defensemen out of the lineup of severely limited? Is Wideman and Green being out and Carlson playing limited an excuse or a serious problem? Is having 3 top quality PMD not enough and therefore to be blamed on McPhee for being unprepared? If the lack of PMD is a critical problem is that Boudreau's fault?

Last question.
* If I say one season for both McPhee and Boudreau and Ovechkin breaks his ankle and misses the playoffs, is that McPhee and Boudreau's fault? Is it Boudreau's fault if its in the last minute of a game with a 4 goal lead? sure. Is it their fault if Ov falls getting off the team bus?

For me, Boudreau nearly came unglued v Montreal and had he, should have been fired. I think its just as likely that the Caps win the Cup this season and Boudreau fired by mid season the next season over something he said as it is that he coaches 3 more seasons with the Caps without a cup.

Its all in the details.

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08-29-2011, 12:04 PM
  #256
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McPhee trades, as best I can remember:

Peanuts for Brian Bellows. WIN
Peanuts for Tik. WIN (or was this Poile?)
Peanuts for Jeff Brown. INJURY FAIL
Juneau for Tezikov. FAIL
Zed, Bulis for Linden, Zubrus. DIDN'T WORK OUT
Beech+ for Jagr. DESTROYED THE TEAM
2nd and 3rd for Grier. GOOD TRADE
Grier for Klepis. FAIL
Peanuts for Berezin. FAIL
Oates for Oullette+ picks. IFFY, TRADED UP #1 PICK+ TO GET SEMIN
Lang for Flash and #1 (Green). WIN
Gonchar for ShaMo and pick. ???
Witt for #1 (Varly). WIN
Nylander for pick. ???
Kono for the Finn. FAIL
Eminger + #1 for #1 (Carlson) BIG WIN
Osala for Corvo. FAIL
#2 for Belanger. DIDN'T AMOUNT TO MUCH
Ruth, Jr. For Fedorov. WIN
#2 for Huet. WIN
#2 for Arnott. DIDN'T WORK
Flash for Hannan. WIN


McPhee's trades are mixed. Lots of dumpster diving. He doesn't show much vision in comparison to top GMs. Even when he gets good value the player doesn't seem to fit in.

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08-29-2011, 12:22 PM
  #257
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I am curious how people would grade McPhee's deadline deals. Is the Huet pickup, his best? Or Feds, because he helped us eek past New York? I for one liked the aggressiveness and attempts to make the team better at the deadlines, but can we proclaim them successful, and use it on his resume? Jury is out on Wideman, which may turn out the best of the lot.

I think if his goal was to bolster the team for a cup run, somehow in there, you have to admit, it didnt work. He added vets and good players, for sure. But he perhaps didnt have the core in place he needed, to bother making all those moves. Like center depth, depth on defense, or goaltending.

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08-29-2011, 12:39 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
The coach. He has never been good at hiring coaches. Bruce was thoroughly outclassed the last two playoffs. What makes McPhee think it'll be any different this year?

The center position. Weak there again.

I readily acknowledge the goods things. Carlson, Alzner, Green. Edit: Kuz looks like a great pick-up, too.

The trades haven't been so hot have they? I liked McPhee's trade for Grier but then he traded him away. The Lang trade got us Green and half a season of Hannan. The Wideman trade hasn't worked out so far.
I don't hate McPhee anyway. He has improved the franchise. But has he built a playoff winner? No he has not. Why would anyone think he can do that? That's what I can't understand.
I agree with alot of what you say but you MUST admit he has really improved drafting to the point where I believe we are the best drafting team in the league.

And I really disagree about Wideman. He was outstanding b4 injury and its not like we gave up that much for him. Wasn't it a 3rd round pick or something?

We are starting to pick players (non 1st rounders) who are working out..Neuvirth, Holtby, Orlov (most likely), Eakin (most likely) etc..that wasn't the case pre lockout.


It does remain to be seen whether he can get the whole puzzle figured out but he has figured out certain portions of it and shown drastic improvement over time.

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08-29-2011, 01:04 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Peanuts for Brian Bellows. WIN
Peanuts for Tik. WIN (or was this Poile?)
Peanuts for Jeff Brown. INJURY FAIL
Juneau for Tezikov. FAIL
Zed, Bulis for Linden, Zubrus. DIDN'T WORK OUT
Beech+ for Jagr. DESTROYED THE TEAM
2nd and 3rd for Grier. GOOD TRADE
Grier for Klepis. FAIL
Peanuts for Berezin. FAIL
Oates for Oullette+ picks. IFFY, TRADED UP #1 PICK+ TO GET SEMIN
Lang for Flash and #1 (Green). WIN
Gonchar for ShaMo and pick. ???
Witt for #1 (Varly). WIN
Nylander for pick. ???
Kono for the Finn. FAIL
Eminger + #1 for #1 (Carlson) BIG WIN
Osala for Corvo. FAIL
#2 for Belanger. DIDN'T AMOUNT TO MUCH
Ruth, Jr. For Fedorov. WIN
#2 for Huet. WIN
#2 for Arnott. DIDN'T WORK
Flash for Hannan. WIN
I don't see how this is a fail? Sure, Crovo didn't end up helping, but McPhee got NHL value of an AHL'er that skipped over the Atlantic. In the long run it really didn't have any ill effects on the club.

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08-29-2011, 01:08 PM
  #260
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The only thing I can really point to with real evidence is that McPhee lets plainly evident problems fester. He allowed the defense to suck for years without doing anything about it. I really believe that if we even had a mediocre defense in 2009 we would have gone to the finals.

We're seeing this again with centers and its been a glaring weakness ever since we got sold Dainus f'ing Zubrus as a first line center.

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08-29-2011, 02:06 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBears View Post
I don't see how this is a fail? Sure, Crovo didn't end up helping, but McPhee got NHL value of an AHL'er that skipped over the Atlantic. In the long run it really didn't have any ill effects on the club.
I think this was more a fail on Bruce. Bruce basically refused to let Corvo get any significant reps on PP1 during the regular season. When the PP struggled in the playoffs or Green got injured (same thing?) what did we do? Put Corvo on the PP at left point, IIRC, late in the series. It didnt help and probably made things worse.

Same thing happened the year before, Green couldnt or wouldnt shoot versus Pitt, and Bruce refused to try Juice or Pothier on the PP, even though they had both scored at ES in that series, and were healthy. He probably didn't for a lack of confidence in them, but that probably resulted from him insisting on using Green for the full 2 on every PP he could throughout the entire season.

What killed me on the Corvo trade was, AND a 2nd?

The better our drafting gets, the more moving of 2nd's for guys at the deadline of failed playoff runs, hurts our organization. One cannot easily measure the what if's had we simply kept those picks.

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08-29-2011, 02:30 PM
  #262
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Langkow to Phoenix pending a physical - if Calgary is filling a hole (he was unnecessary depth at C), that looks better for Calgary to beat Colorado up for us

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08-29-2011, 03:53 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
The only thing I can really point to with real evidence is that McPhee lets plainly evident problems fester. He allowed the defense to suck for years without doing anything about it. I really believe that if we even had a mediocre defense in 2009 we would have gone to the finals.

We're seeing this again with centers and its been a glaring weakness ever since we got sold Dainus f'ing Zubrus as a first line center.
I definitely agree with you about the defense, but I don't know about the centers. I think he has made a clear effort to address that problem. Taking it from Zubrus: He drafted Backstrom, an obvious move. He signed Nylander to a long-term, expensive contract. In lieu of Nylander, he traded for Fedorov at the deadline, whom he later re-signed. Then he drafted Gustaffson, Johansson, and Kuznetsov (who probably won't be a center, but who McPhee says he thinks could be). In the meantime he's tried to address the problem with the best available options at the last two deadlines.

Certainly you can disagree with his methods. His patience and desire to let the solutions come long-term with the development of players like Johansson has probably cost the team in some sense, and some of his moves haven't worked out. It's just incorrect to say he's let that particular problem fester, though.

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08-29-2011, 04:05 PM
  #264
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i think the defense issue and the center issue are very similar. he has a clear preference for allowing long term assets to establish. be it backstrom and johansson at center or alzner and carlson on defense.

facts are facts. mcphee could well have traded alzner and carlson and johansson to land a short term stud that could have improved the caps right now chances.

we have certainly seen the downside of not doing that while we have barely scratched the surface of the upside of not doing that. i wanted to trade alzner and whoever else from the system to get pronger. caps didnt get pronger. they didnt win the cup. what they had last season was both carlson and alzner as shutdown pair while rookies.

time will tell.

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08-29-2011, 09:16 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
I'll be nicer this year if you guys will give me your time tables for McPhee and Bruce. How many more playoff fails before you become a McPhee pessimist or hater? Be specific. 1 more year? 3 more?
As dopey as this post is, I'll answer it: There is no number of years that would cause me to give up on McPhee if he continues to make the types of moves he has made over the past 4 years. As for BB, this is it. If we don't make the conference finals, it's time to try something else.

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08-29-2011, 09:48 PM
  #266
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As for BB, this is it. If we don't make the conference finals, it's time to try something else.
do you mean that regardless of anything or all things being equal?

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08-29-2011, 09:50 PM
  #267
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So good moves but repeated failure of the end goal is acceptable? I know our expectations as DC sports fans have dropped to an all-time low, but wow...

I can't buy into good moves that don't win titles. Those moves are good for what then exactly if not to win championships?

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08-29-2011, 09:54 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
So good moves but repeated failure of the end goal is acceptable? I know our expectations as DC sports fans have dropped to an all-time low, but wow...

I can't buy into good moves that don't win titles. Those moves are good for what then exactly if not to win championships?
So the answer is to make bad moves?

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08-29-2011, 09:56 PM
  #269
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As dopey as this post is, I'll answer it: There is no number of years that would cause me to give up on McPhee if he continues to make the types of moves he has made over the past 4 years. As for BB, this is it. If we don't make the conference finals, it's time to try something else.
Agreed with a caveat; if the Caps lose in the 1st or 2nd rounds again, and GMGM keeps BB, I may finally join the anti-GMGM crowd.

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08-29-2011, 10:02 PM
  #270
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So good moves but repeated failure of the end goal is acceptable?
For a GM? Yes. The GM's job is to put the best players and coaches available on the ice in order to put the team in a position to win. GMGM has done that. At some point the blame has to fall on the coaches and players when the GM is clearly doing his job.

As I said, eventually the GM gets the blame for having the wrong coach, but I'm not personally there yet.

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08-29-2011, 10:15 PM
  #271
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For a GM? Yes. The GM's job is to put the best players and coaches available on the ice in order to put the team in a position to win. GMGM has done that. At some point the blame has to fall on the coaches and players when the GM is clearly doing his job.

As I said, eventually the GM gets the blame for having the wrong coach, but I'm not personally there yet.
I can't help but wander if we could have snagged Lemaire for a season if we threw him 5-6 million dollars, even with him wanting to retire and all. I'm convinced with him and our current roster we would be able to pull it off. He turned Kovalchuk into god on skates, I shudder to think what he could have made Ovechkin into. I've come to peace with the fact that my realistic choice for a coach (Muller) wasn't hireable since the fallout from the potential scenario of replacing Bruce with a first timer and subsequently doing worse was unacceptable to McPhee from a cover-own-ass perspective.

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08-29-2011, 10:36 PM
  #272
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So the answer is to make bad moves?


Yes, clearly the choice is to be a moron.

Or...maybe the fans should not be so enamoured with what people are suggesting are all these GREAT moves that so for have ended in embarassing failure (or the thing that bothers me most, all the years of no moves when the team sorely needed shoring up).


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08-29-2011, 10:42 PM
  #273
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For a GM? Yes. The GM's job is to put the best players and coaches available on the ice in order to put the team in a position to win. GMGM has done that. At some point the blame has to fall on the coaches and players when the GM is clearly doing his job.

As I said, eventually the GM gets the blame for having the wrong coach, but I'm not personally there yet.
Really? He's done that? When they win a title, I'll believe he's done his job. And if you believe in the concept of accountability, the GM absolutely gets the blame for the wrong coach.

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08-29-2011, 10:51 PM
  #274
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I would pay $20 to drop Lemaire in the deepest ocean trench (in the most symbolic manner). That being said I don't think the craze in picking a new GM translates to a team success. A GM needs to be decent in drafting, free agency, half decent at the trade deadline. And a regime change..other than maybe the trade situ, ends up being a setback in other areas, IMHO.

GMGM specifically...that he stuck with BB is impressive that most GMs would have canned him..most for job security but the remainding for a challenging change. Interesting year this is. Leonsis is comfortable with GMGM. Will be interesting to see if this season does pan out what he will do.

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08-29-2011, 11:22 PM
  #275
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I would pay $20 to drop Lemaire in the deepest ocean trench (in the most symbolic manner). That being said I don't think the craze in picking a new GM translates to a team success. A GM needs to be decent in drafting, free agency, half decent at the trade deadline. And a regime change..other than maybe the trade situ, ends up being a setback in other areas, IMHO.
Yeah. Granted, I like McPhee, but the idea of changing GMs really scares me. People on here caution that firing Boudreau might be unwise because the wrong replacement might not be available or might not be chosen, but that's a much more potent danger when it comes to a GM. If McPhee is fired and Ted hires the wrong replacement, the consequences could be catastrophic, whereas hiring the wrong coach doesn't carry much more danger than the threat of one lost season. That doesn't mean McPhee shouldn't be held accountable, but they need to be careful. I sure as ****ing hell wouldn't want someone like Dale Tallon in charge (if McPhee had been replaced a year ago, for example).

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