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Allison to Canes?

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Old
08-06-2004, 12:35 AM
  #26
Cloned
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
Crap. I wanted to say "*******" factor, but I figure it might be audited. I used the wrong word (mistake). I'll correct the original post. You may be less enamoured with the update.
You're right. "Jerk" isn't anywhere near the calibre of word that "smarm" is.

As to the topic of this thread, I find myself agreeing (for the most part) with Matts. If any other team offers a greater chance to win and/or more money and/or more icetime than the Oilers, we can pretty much erase any possibility of Allison putting on an Oilers jersey.

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08-06-2004, 12:46 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
Why?

Personally, I wouldn't want a board 'where like-minded Oiler Fans come to agree', at least not exclusively. Fact is that Matts sees the game really well IMHO, so do Digger, G2K, Lowetide, Lawndemon and surely a few others I'm forgetting. But they're a rare breed.

Unfortunately sometimes we are often too quick to bash opinions that are seen to be negative, or anti-Oiler ... whether they are correct or not seems secondary sometimes. And that's a shame I think.

Personally I am shocked by the remarkable lack of insight from many. It astounds me that many are even watching the games, just unreal. I can hardly wait for another "are the Oilers playing the trap thread" or "any winger should be able to play centre with the Oiler's system" or "my PP plan!" etc. --- real 'laugh out loud stuff'. Priceless. :lol

And I don't diss people for it (or at least very rarely), but it seems to be common for a group of more casual, upbeat "nice but dim" fans to gang up on the posters I listed above when they say unpopular things (and they all do, even Lowetide, just in an impossibly nice way) ... and I hope none have been or will be driven away.

I think it is great that this is usually a friendly board, but it wouldn't kill us to sacrifice a bit of niceness for a bit of knowledge either. Let's be frank, in this regard we have plenty of room to grow here. Don't you think?
But you see, the thing is it isn't just the odd negative thought - it's a constant pessimistic approach to everything and it's done just to get people going -if you don't know that then you, my friend, are the one lacking simple people skills. I agree, there are some meat heads who over simplify the game and certain situations to a disgusting degree (LMHF#1 has all the answers, and everything is very easy to accomplish to him, lol). People are fine when Lowetide says something negative, same with Digger and G2k - because it's not a constant degrading approach to it. I mentioned this earlier - that Matts is the type that has nothing really meaningful to add - he has knowledge and all - but he never uses it -just tries to claim some greater awareness of the real world that hundreds of posters on here lack.

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Old
08-06-2004, 01:37 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
But you see, the thing is it isn't just the odd negative thought - it's a constant pessimistic approach to everything and it's done just to get people going ...
Ya, some of it is over the top. And if there is anything more redundant than my PP rants or the endless Pouliot/Parise debates ... its the salo bashing. WTH ... just skip over that thome. It's just the internet after all. A lot of the 'negative' guys make comments that are well founded and well thought out. Whether we agree with them or not.

With all of us at some point (some more than others, I'm guilty of it plenty) often the validity of a point is lost because of the tone of it, and I just think that's a shame.

Quote:
...
-if you don't know that then you, my friend, are the one lacking simple people skills.
...
Now that's just hurtful. Is that really necessary?

Hmmm. I might have to rethink this whole issue. Maybe we should all just try to be nice at any cost.
.
.


Quote:
I agree, there are some meat heads who over simplify the game and certain situations to a disgusting degree (LMHF#1 has all the answers, and everything is very easy to accomplish to him, lol). People are fine when Lowetide says something negative, same with Digger and G2k - because it's not a constant degrading approach to it. I mentioned this earlier - that Matts is the type that has nothing really meaningful to add - he has knowledge and all - but he never uses it -just tries to claim some greater awareness of the real world that hundreds of posters on here lack.
Meh, doesn't bother me too much. I'm pretty sure that LMHF has called me an idiot at least half a dozen times. The guy's a die-hard fan. One of those people whose posts I always read.

I know what you mean though. I'm not bothered when someone reasonable disagrees with me ... happens all the time, and if it didn't why bother coming to a hockey board? Me and dawgbone disagree a lot ... but that's fair enough, he knows the game, he has reasons for his opinions, I have reasons for mine ... people don't always agree.

I agree though that when a dumbarse takes a run at me I get POed and take a run at them. WTH. If there was a 10-minute time-delay before posting ... most of the more spirited posts on here wouldn't make it on :lol ... and that would be a shame IMO.


Last edited by igor*: 08-06-2004 at 01:47 AM.
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Old
08-06-2004, 03:18 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerbianEagle
There is a huge difference between being a "legitimate contender" and "not wanting to win".

Oilers are not a legitimate contender, but they do want to win.
Sure, they want to win. But in terms of "winning", isn't Matts just talking about winning the ultimate prize? It's really all just semantics. The only way Jason was going to find his way here was the lure of icetime and perhaps a fanatic hockey base in Edmonton. There was no way we could offer him a) money or b) a very good chance of winning the Stanley Cup.

By the indications for signing in Carolina, the incentive there is money... something the Oilers don't necessarily have to spend.

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Old
08-06-2004, 04:11 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
Crap. I wanted to say "*******" factor, but I figure it might be audited. I used the wrong word (mistake). I'll correct the original post. You may be less enamoured with the update.
hehe. My bad.... I just didn't clue in on that one! And yes, jerk factor is much more fitting.

But back to the topic, Allison at this point in his career seems very much like a high risk/reward player at this point in his career due to the injury factor. It's likely boom or bust with him. I can't say it'l kill me if he goes to the 'Canes, and I'm sure most here will agree. It's not like we've invested too much thought into the notion that he would join Edmonton.

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Old
08-06-2004, 10:50 AM
  #31
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As far as Allison to the Canes go, I actually think that would be a much better fit for him than Edmonton. Money and Competing aside.


Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
True enough. And anyone who is certain that you are wrong should feel free to get a second mortgage and wager it all on the Oilers getting over 100 points next season ... you'll get decent odds on that. And 100 pts is really the benchmark for serious contention in this league, a flukey playoff run aside. And that's 100 points at minimum.

I don't see the Oilers getting a UFA forward though. A trade seems more likely to me.

As for the Oilers ability to win, I will use this Igor quote as a jumping in point (although my reponse is more geared towards the general bickering throughout the entire thread).

I don't understand why looking ahead and expecting the team to get better is a demonstration for a lack of insight. Yes there are occassions where some more sobering thoughts are needed but lets be realistic, when it comes to Matts it generally has nothing to do with offering a sobering thought but instead it tends to have the appearance of "the Oilers will NEVER get it right". How can that be considered a refreshing change of insight?

Where is the "insight" when the only benchmark you go by is the season previous? If that's the only way to assess a team then in '93 the Devils would be slated to never ever win the cup, in '95 the Avalanche would never ever be slated to win the cup, in '04 Anaheim would have been a slam dunk TO win the cup.

Last year means nothing unless there is no forward progress as an organization. Can anyone really say that the Oilers have had no forward progress from year to year, in one aspect or another over the past 4? Granted not everything gets addressed at once, but is it realistic to expect it get addressed at once?

Which brings me to the whole UFA's not wanting to come here thing. First off, I think it is pretty gullible to not believe that 99% of the guys out there will go to where the money is offered. THAT is the primary reason that guys don't come to Edmonton.

As far as the Oilers ability to win goes, I find it frustrating to hear that they can't win because they didn't last year (or in Matts case because they didn't make the playoffs 2 of the last 4 years), especially when talking about a UFA center.

When looking at the team, the two biggest question marks revolve around goaltending and 1st line pivot (to a lesser extent a point producing blueliner). Goaltending has been addressed, although the effectiveness of the solution is still an outstanding question mark and the 1st line pivot is exactly the hole that would be filled in the case of signing an UFA center. To say Allison wouldn't sign here because the Oilers can't win, when it is generally accepted that a legit 1st line center would IMPROVE a 92-94 point team seems like a contradiction.

If (in this case) Allison looks at the Oilers and says they can't win and therefore stays away, then that says more about his assessment of his own game then it does about the assessment of the Oiler team. If he looks at the team, with himself as the first line center, and honestly thinks that the team isn't better than last year then why would the Oilers want him?

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Old
08-06-2004, 12:30 PM
  #32
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Am I the only one who thinks this team could be a contender in 2 years? We are so close right now. And adding a PPG player is really all we need that I see. Our defense is ok, not great, but ok, our offense is good, really good, esp 5 on 5. If we can ever get our PP clicking we'll be a force. The only other question is our goaltending, which I have faith in. And if that faith is misplaced I think that is something we'll know by x-mas at the latest.

Honestly does this lineup not scream 2nd round?

Smyth - Allison/Nedved - Dvorak
Torres - York - Hemsky
Moreau - Reasoner - Pisani
Rita- Horcoff - Isbister
Laraque - Stoll

Brewer - Smith
Staois - Semenov
Ulanov/Cross - Bergeron

Conklin
Markannen

That looks pretty solid to me. And with some of our kids getting ready to make the leap, in a few years it will only be getting better.

I really don't think we are that far off from being a contender. Am I alone here?

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Old
08-06-2004, 12:32 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
As far as Allison to the Canes go, I actually think that would be a much better fit for him than Edmonton. Money and Competing aside.
I agree, a big slow guy like that is better suited to the East. Never watched him much ... but by my memory Marchant always seemed to outplay him at 5on5 when he was a Bruin, not a good sign IMO.

Quote:
As for the Oilers ability to win, I will use this Igor quote as a jumping in point (although my reponse is more geared towards the general bickering throughout the entire thread).

I don't understand why looking ahead and expecting the team to get better is a demonstration for a lack of insight.
It isn't. If you go to other team's message boards, on virtually every one with low to mid-range teams ... 80% of fans are predicting improvement the next season.

Simple arithmetic dictates that this isn't possible. Still, if you don't believe, it's tough to be a fan of a non-contender.

Quote:
Where is the "insight" when the only benchmark you go by is the season previous? ..
Well, on this thread the issue is more likely balance. Insight is more an issue when the season is on.

Quote:
Which brings me to the whole UFA's not wanting to come here thing. First off, I think it is pretty gullible to not believe that 99% of the guys out there will go to where the money is offered. THAT is the primary reason that guys don't come to Edmonton.
That is certainly a large part of it. We all know the story about the unnamed player who was a free agent coming off a championship season ... when his agent asked where he wanted to play, if had any loyalty to the team, he said "If they want loyalty they can get a dog. Go for the best dollar" :lol Agents don't drive these things, players do, in all our sports. And, as you suggest: that's the mindset of most.

But there is also no doubt that a warmer climate, a place where you can be more anonymous, and a contending team are much more likely to be able to sign UFAs. Remember when Spector declared [by memory] on air that on the Edmonton Oilers right now about 30% of the Oilers players would LOVE to be traded? And that a lot of the wives even moreso. That's not a money issue. And it was priceless ... I thought he was going to start naming names at one point :lol Told a funny anecdote about Jeff Norton instead though. I love those guys on the afternoon show, they've got brass. The Oilers were PLENTY pished at Spector and The Team about that, but in fairness, I don't think they shut him out or anything, as far as I know. Triffic stuff.

Quote:
When looking at the team, the two biggest question marks revolve around goaltending and 1st line pivot (to a lesser extent a point producing blueliner). Goaltending has been addressed, although the effectiveness of the solution is still an outstanding question mark and the 1st line pivot is exactly the hole that would be filled in the case of signing an UFA center. To say Allison wouldn't sign here because the Oilers can't win, when it is generally accepted that a legit 1st line center would IMPROVE a 92-94 point team seems like a contradiction.
Well, looking at the Oilers projected payroll, and seeing the way all the contracts have gone so far ... a UFA centre seems a bit unlikely to me unless the ownership is choosing to take a couple extra million out of their own pockets to fund it.

Reminds me of the time when there were rumours about the Flames being interested in a big name UFA, Lindros I think, before his holdout (seriously, this "big UFA coming" rumour really happened). Started by the Flames themselves I suspect. It was big news down there for a while in the dark days, real swell of optimism in the fan base ... Fleury's quote on the subject was priceless "what are they going to pay him with? Buttons?"

The trade route seems most likely for the Oilers.

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Old
08-06-2004, 12:58 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor

Well, on this thread the issue is more likely balance. Insight is more an issue when the season is on.
Some guys get critisized here because they paint their expectations in a rosey light. Yet if you look at the overwhelming majority of the predictions, they are consistantly mediocre at best. The boldest predictions that stand out for me are the contending in a couple years but lets be realistic, that is still consistant with the prediction 2 years ago when it was the Oilers are 4 years away.

This whole idea that people aren't realistic in their expectations reminds me of the Kevin Lowe thread where one group is saying he is doing a good job because he restocked the farm and therefore deserves a B, then the other side says he isn't doing a good job because he left the center position unattended too long and therefore deserves a B.

The grade is the same and yet one side bases the grade on critisisms while the other bases the grade on accolades.


Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
That is certainly a large part of it. We all know the story about the unnamed player who was a free agent coming off a championship season ... when his agent asked where he wanted to play, if had any loyalty to the team, he said "If they want loyalty they can get a dog. Go for the best dollar" :lol Agents don't drive these things, players do, in all our sports. And, as you suggest: that's the mindset of most.
I agree but that is also quite different than the original shot of "they won't come here because they can't win"

Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
But there is also no doubt that a warmer climate, a place where you can be more anonymous, and a contending team are much more likely to be able to sign UFAs. Remember when Spector declared [by memory] on air that on the Edmonton Oilers right now about 30% of the Oilers players would LOVE to be traded? And that a lot of the wives even moreso. That's not a money issue. And it was priceless ... I thought he was going to start naming names at one point :lol Told a funny anecdote about Jeff Norton instead though. I love those guys on the afternoon show, they've got brass. The Oilers were PLENTY pished at Spector and The Team about that, but in fairness, I don't think they shut him out or anything, as far as I know. Triffic stuff.
I remember that show, good stuff indeed.

I get pretty tired of athletes that choose lifestyle over professional accomplishment. It should be that you sacrifice a little standard of living (even that is a stretch to say) until your career is over and then reap the benefits when your retired at 35. Seems to me that the players hold that short career life as a reason for demanding big dollars in the first place.

Sadly those days are past and you are right, that probably does factor in more than we care to think.

Again though, very different from the original shot of - they won't come cause the Oilers can't win....

Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
The trade route seems most likely for the Oilers.
I don't really disagree, but again my rant was more about the "unrealistic expectations" that some fans have.

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Old
08-06-2004, 05:29 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
.

I agree though that when a dumbarse takes a run at me I get POed and take a run at them. WTH.
Interesting how you label someone a dumbarse, and respond with rancor, when they post something you don't care for. (regardless of whether or not they are taking a run at you) Thats your right I guess. It's also your right to lock yourself in a room and read the Big NHL Book of Statistics with one hand.
I guess what I am trying to say is, there are those who clearly don't get as hot and bothered about statistics as you do, but contribute in other ways. Your perch seems pretty elevated, so i'll just assume that it's hard for you to see that.

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08-06-2004, 05:48 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez
Interesting how you label someone a dumbarse, and respond with rancor, when they post something you don't care for. (regardless of whether or not they are taking a run at you) Thats your right I guess. It's also your right to lock yourself in a room and read the Big NHL Book of Statistics with one hand.
I guess what I am trying to say is, there are those who clearly don't get as hot and bothered about statistics as you do, but contribute in other ways. Your perch seems pretty elevated, so i'll just assume that it's hard for you to see that.
You've misunderstood me.

And when have I ever brought out numbers against the likes of lowetide, gabbyduggan, YK, smyth94, momentai, Jmoney, asiaoil, speeds, etc etc etc.? Damn rare, it's just not necessary. These guys have clearly either played or coached ... or more likely just see the game in a similar way to me for the most part ... not much to argue about.

Obviously I've pished you off at some point here. Quite frankly i don't even recognize your name ... so I don't know when I did it. And I really don't care, I can't imagine that you really do either.

Arguments are best in a bar, not the internet. Just a better place for them, get things sorted on the day, that sort of thing. But I argue on here too much to ... so I can't talk either.

Peace out, buddy.

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