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NCAA/CHL Battle heating up

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07-27-2011, 07:03 PM
  #1
billycanuck
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NCAA/CHL Battle heating up

From Chris Peters blog, United States of Hockey:
NCAA/CHL Battle Heating Up
Quote:
three of the four college-committed players selected in the first round of the 2011 Entry Draft have decided to go to the OHL. J.T. Miller, previously committed to the University of North Dakota, has reportedly signed with the Plymouth Whalers. Jamie Oleksiak, who would have been a sophomore at Northeastern signed with the Saginaw Spirit last week. And the latest: I was informed by two independent sources that Connor Murphy will drop his commitment to Miami University and will sign with the Sarnia Sting. That is expected to be announced soon.
Quote:
Michael Spath later confirmed this report via text with Gibson and Michigan head coach Red Berenson issued a statement saying, “John Gibson has decided not to attend the University of Michigan or to play college hockey.” This particularly stings for Michigan in that this is the second straight year they’ve lost the top goalie recruit in the country, as Jack Campbell was a previous Michigan commit before signing with Windsor.

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07-27-2011, 08:36 PM
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Dakota Sioux
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Just a few facts from the beat writer for UND. He has done his homework. Take it anyway you like but these numbers don't lie.

UND’s Zach Parise has scored more NHL goals than every player the Plymouth Whalers have produced in the last eight years combined (and Parise missed almost all of last year).

When you add in others that the Sioux have produced in that timeframe — Conn Smythe winner Jonathan Toews, 30-goal scorer Drew Stafford, Travis Zajac, alternate captain Matt Greene, T.J. Oshie, etc. — the former Sioux are dwarfing the production of Plymouth players (and other major junior teams) in the NHL.

The official numbers (in players produced during the last eight years)?

NHL games played: UND 2,648. Plymouth 1,245.

NHL goals: UND 551. Plymouth 154.

NHL assists: UND 794. Plymouth 259.

NHL points: UND 1,345. Plymouth 413.

Players with 100+ NHL games: UND 10. Plymouth four.

NHL captains/alternate captains: UND three. Plymouth zero.

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07-27-2011, 10:52 PM
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thook
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Plymouth Whalers hockey program began in the 90/91 season

UND began playing Varsity hockey in 46/47

I could get into a bunch more stats but lets compare apples to apples.

Do all these numbers again starting in 1990.

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07-28-2011, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thook View Post
Plymouth Whalers hockey program began in the 90/91 season

UND began playing Varsity hockey in 46/47

I could get into a bunch more stats but lets compare apples to apples.

Do all these numbers again starting in 1990.
Well, they are only comparing the last eight years.
The comparison doesn't really make sense to me though since UND is one of the more successful schools in all of college hockey and Plymouth is just so-so.
This article compares London, Kitchener, and UND, which is more valid, as all three are very successful programs.

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07-28-2011, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Sioux View Post
Just a few facts from the beat writer for UND. He has done his homework. Take it anyway you like but these numbers don't lie.

UND’s Zach Parise has scored more NHL goals than every player the Plymouth Whalers have produced in the last eight years combined (and Parise missed almost all of last year).

When you add in others that the Sioux have produced in that timeframe — Conn Smythe winner Jonathan Toews, 30-goal scorer Drew Stafford, Travis Zajac, alternate captain Matt Greene, T.J. Oshie, etc. — the former Sioux are dwarfing the production of Plymouth players (and other major junior teams) in the NHL.

The official numbers (in players produced during the last eight years)?

NHL games played: UND 2,648. Plymouth 1,245.

NHL goals: UND 551. Plymouth 154.

NHL assists: UND 794. Plymouth 259.

NHL points: UND 1,345. Plymouth 413.

Players with 100+ NHL games: UND 10. Plymouth four.

NHL captains/alternate captains: UND three. Plymouth zero.
That does look good, but like mentioned above, lets compare it to more stronger franchises like Nate Seager did from Buzzing The Net:
Rhetoric shouldn’t dwarf facts in CHL-NCAA conflab, please
Quote:
NHL games played: London 4,007; Kitchener 2,688; UND 2,648.
NHL goals: London 671; UND 551; Kitchener 502.
NHL assists: London 1,264; UND 794; Kitchener 771.
NHL points: London 1,935; UND 1,345; Kitchener 1,273.
Players with 100+ NHL games: London 16, UND 10, Kitchener 9.
**Sorry didn't notice jfb's post, but here are the main points


Last edited by billycanuck: 07-28-2011 at 06:08 AM. Reason: too early in the AM
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07-28-2011, 04:27 PM
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Dakota Sioux
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Just threw it out there because I got rampaged by some Rangers fans that said Plymouth is a more offensive program and was letting them know what JT Miller would be missing out on. I know it's apples to oranges.My main reason was to show just what UND has produced over the past 8 years. Miller made his decision to jump ship and he may regret it down the road.

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07-29-2011, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Sioux View Post
Just threw it out there because I got rampaged by some Rangers fans that said Plymouth is a more offensive program and was letting them know what JT Miller would be missing out on. I know it's apples to oranges.My main reason was to show just what UND has produced over the past 8 years. Miller made his decision to jump ship and he may regret it down the road.
Actually with the CHL/CIS scholarships they have going I see no reason why a Canadian player with pro ambitions would ever take an NCAA scholarship. Things will get progressively tougher for NCAA schools, especially for those outside the big conferences.

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07-29-2011, 01:14 AM
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Just looking over my gopher stats.

557 goals
875 assists

Placing them ahead of UND.

Leads one to think. How often do Kitchener and London play each other? And how often do MN and UND play? Where is the better competition?

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07-29-2011, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
Just looking over my gopher stats.

557 goals
875 assists

Placing them ahead of UND.

Leads one to think. How often do Kitchener and London play each other? And how often do MN and UND play? Where is the better competition?
Six times a season, since they are in the same division.

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07-29-2011, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
Six times a season, since they are in the same division.
I was thinking Kit was in the WHL. Still MN and UND play teams like WI, MI, CC, DU, and all the top teams play each other on a consistant basis. The top OHL teams do play top OHL teams. But people get carried away and throw out Crosby QMJHL, Getzlaf WHL and NASH OHL as if those teams play cross league games all the time.

Since the 02-03 season the WCHA can boast

Ryan Sutter, Erik Johnson, Paul Martin all olympians. Keith Ballard, Alex Goligoski, Tom Gilbert, Matt Niskanen, Matt Carle, John Scott, Tom preissing, Mark Stuart, Jack Hillen, David Hale, Matt Jones, Matt Greene, Brian Lee, Matt Smaby all over 100 games and with Jamie McBain and Nick Leddy being NHL regulars last year.

Jonathon Toews, Thomas Vanek, Zack Parise, Paul Stastny, Joe Pavelski, Ryan Malone, Phil Kessel, David Backes all olympians TJ Oshie, Travis Zajac, Drew Stafford, Blake Wheeler, Mason Raymond, Adam Burish, Chris Conor, Kyle Okposo, Tyler Bozak, Rene Bourque, Jake Dowell, Kyle Turris, all over 100.

Out of the 9 Hobey winners 6 came from the WCHA.

WCHA won 5/9 National Title games

2/4 in the frozen four last year.
In 2005 it was an all WCHA frozen four
Put at least one team in the FF since 02-03
One year DU won the frozen four, they failed to qualify for the second week end of the final five.

You are playing a tough schedule in the WCHA. You compact the OHL into 11 teams. It gets a lot deeper and tougher. You let it get older too. And you have a fight. The OHL; talent is young and spread out.

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07-29-2011, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
The Sting have called a press conference for 1:00 today where its expected they will sign Grand Ledge, MI native Reid Boucher.

Boucher played the past two years with the U.S. NTDP program out of Ann Arbor and was a 4th round pick (99th overall) by the New Jersey Devils in June.

Boucher had a committment to attend Michigan State in September, however, like many other US players in recent weeks, opted for the OHL.
Yet another one...

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07-29-2011, 01:07 PM
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Anyone think the NHL clubs have some influence on these players decisions to join major junior clubs? I have heard in my hockey circles that NHL clubs have actually persuaded newly drafted players to join CHL teams after committing to NCAA teams.

Also, does the fact that these players can be under NHL contract and still be playing junior? I know that CHL teams can throw some decent cash at these players too.

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07-29-2011, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Sioux View Post
Just a few facts from the beat writer for UND. He has done his homework. Take it anyway you like but these numbers don't lie.

UND’s Zach Parise has scored more NHL goals than every player the Plymouth Whalers have produced in the last eight years combined (and Parise missed almost all of last year).

When you add in others that the Sioux have produced in that timeframe — Conn Smythe winner Jonathan Toews, 30-goal scorer Drew Stafford, Travis Zajac, alternate captain Matt Greene, T.J. Oshie, etc. — the former Sioux are dwarfing the production of Plymouth players (and other major junior teams) in the NHL.

The official numbers (in players produced during the last eight years)?

NHL games played: UND 2,648. Plymouth 1,245.

NHL goals: UND 551. Plymouth 154.

NHL assists: UND 794. Plymouth 259.

NHL points: UND 1,345. Plymouth 413.

Players with 100+ NHL games: UND 10. Plymouth four.

NHL captains/alternate captains: UND three. Plymouth zero.
Wow!
Talk about apples and oranges
Schlossman drinks the koolaid to excess.

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07-29-2011, 02:57 PM
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No Fun Shogun
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Uh.... why is comparing UND's numbers with Plymoth's numbers a bad thing? He's specifically talking about a situation where someone chose to play for Plymouth over North Dakota.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable comparison to me.

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07-29-2011, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Uh.... why is comparing UND's numbers with Plymoth's numbers a bad thing? He's specifically talking about a situation where someone chose to play for Plymouth over North Dakota.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable comparison to me.
I must have missed his articles when he dissed on the player(s) and NCAA team(s) that turned their backs on CHL committments.

Remove the blinders.

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07-29-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leoleo3535 View Post
I must have missed his articles when he dissed on the player(s) and NCAA team(s) that turned their backs on CHL committments.

Remove the blinders.
What are you talking about, dude? Read the freaking article again:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/even.../group/Sports/

He's a Grand Forks beat writer that specifically talks about J.T. Miller choosing to play for Plymouth instead of North Dakota, following which he compared the recent history of both programs.

He's not talking about anything else, other than disagreeing with the notion that the CHL is necessarily a better route to the NHL than the NCAA. Whatever the reporter said in other articles on the subject (I don't know or care about this, as I'm not a North Dakota fan and, truth be told, I follow the ACHA more than the NCAA) doesn't really matter as the intent of his article is to talk about whether or not Miller's decision to play for Plymouth over North Dakota really is a smarter career choice for him or not.

How is comparing the two programs that Miller had to choose between (a prior committment to attend UND versus the Plymouth Whalers, the OHL team that had drafted him) like comparing apples and oranges? Bringing up London and other more successful CHL teams is inconsequential in this circumstance, as Miller didn't have a choice between anyone else in the CHL besides Plymouth.

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07-29-2011, 11:22 PM
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leoleo3535
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Chris Peters does make some good points....http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/
"NCAA fans are upset they are losing their top recruits" CHL fans could say the same
"First off, the reason this plan would not benefit the NCAA......" Why are the benefits of the NCAA put ahead of the players and the sport?
"....the fact that a player loses his amateur status, and thus his college eligibility in the CHL, is a scary enough proposition for some players to choose the college route." so a self serving dinosaur rule by the NCAA scares players into chosing the NCAA..........how does this benefit the player? the sport?
"When a player goes to the NCAA he still has multiple options." he has many options from the CHL as well (except 1....because the NCAA blocks him)....BCHL, AJHL, SJHL, MJHL, SIJHL, NOJHL, OJHL, CCHL, LHJQ, MHL, USHL to name several.
"If he wants , he can sign a pro contract and head to the AHL." this applies to the minority,
"Or if things aren't going so great in school , he can go ahead and play Major Junior or he can transfer, playing his sitout year in the USHL" correct.....so if a player in the NCAA decides he wants to leave and go to the CHL he can but the reverse is not allowed....nice
"If that same player goes straight to the CHL , he has one option, CHL til the end and hope for the best" again....he could change to the NCAA but they block it. The CHL could have their own selfserving rule- if you play NCAA you are not eligible to then play in the CHL (they don't, thank goodness) Again the options are many - BCHL, AJHL, SJHL, MJHL, SIJHL, NOJHL, OJHL, CCHL, LHJQ, MHL, USHL to name several.

I won't bother disecting the education topic but......the CHL does provide schooling in the United States.
What happens to the players that the NCAA dimisses on a whim...."budget cuts" etc? Stefishen is just one example?

Again some good points and I agree the odds of the NCAA opening their doors to CHL players is incredibly slim.
I am thankful that the CHL has an open door policy and places the player and the sport ahead of itself.

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07-29-2011, 11:46 PM
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I hope the NCAA never lets CHL players in.

Simple reason, i do not want 17-20 year olds to have that much leverage. It would be bad for both the NCAA and CHL. "Trade me or i'll play NCAA."

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07-30-2011, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
I hope the NCAA never lets CHL players in.

Simple reason, i do not want 17-20 year olds to have that much leverage. It would be bad for both the NCAA and CHL. "Trade me or i'll play NCAA."
I have no problem with kids and their families having options.
As it is today many CHL players have trade/no trade agreements plus they have numerous other good options ie BCHL, AJHL, USHL and all the other leagues I referenced before so adding 1 more doesn't change much.
The reverse applies....ie an NCAA kid can leave for the CHL.
Kids in the USHL, AJHL, BCHL etc. have this option.
Why should the CHL kids be sinled out and blocked?
Doors should not be closed to the kids.

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07-30-2011, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by leoleo3535 View Post
I have no problem with kids and their families having options.
As it is today many CHL players have trade/no trade agreements plus they have numerous other good options ie BCHL, AJHL, USHL and all the other leagues I referenced before so adding 1 more doesn't change much.
The reverse applies....ie an NCAA kid can leave for the CHL.
Kids in the USHL, AJHL, BCHL etc. have this option.
Why should the CHL kids be sinled out and blocked?
Doors should not be closed to the kids.
The kids have options. Leverage is too much.

CHL teams hold rights. A CHL kid leaving for the NCAA could choose any where. A NCAA kid knows he can play NCAA, sit out or go to his drafted CHL team. The NCAA is about higher education. They do not want a CHL kid coming in and leaving right away. If they came in after winter break, they could fail all classes, still play hockey before the term is up and leave again. The NCAA produces student athletes, not athletes that are students.

Maybe this has happened. When was the last time a CHL player had to miss games becasue of bad grades? Or sit out half a season? Whats the min GPA a CHL player must carry to be able to play in the CHL?

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07-31-2011, 03:02 PM
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NCAA vs. CHL: America’s new ice age
Miller signed with the New York Rangers, something he couldn't do if stayed with North Dakota.
Quote:
Vellucci said he had a good feeling Miller would end up with the Whalers – despite a commitment to North Dakota – because he knew the forward’s big frame and style of play would be best suited for the NHL. Those inklings were confirmed on Thursday, when the New York Rangers signed their first round pick (15th overall) to a three-year entry level contract.
Quote:
Having been drafted out of the USNTDP, however, means that Miller can be sent to the American Hockey League if the Rangers so wish because he isn’t beholden to the NHL agreement with the Canadian Hockey League. That deal between the two leagues only allows a player to spend a season in the AHL if they turn 20 before Dec. 31 or have played in the CHL for four seasons.

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08-09-2011, 04:16 PM
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billycanuck
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More from the web about the CHL/NCAA

Buzzing the Net Paul Kelly unloads over summertime jumps to CHL
Quote:
It was a body blow for the NCAA. As greater minds than I have politely pointed out, it's going to keep happening so long as it maintains its outdated rules. The onus is on those in Overland Park, Kansas, where the NCAA is headquartered, to adapt and realize they can't build a firewall around any player who commits to a school (even though there's misgivings if someone was just using it as leverage).
Quote:
Instead of acknowledging that, Kelly put the blame squarely on Canadian Hockey League teams for having the audacity to — scandal! — perhaps compensate them for their labour.
Boston Globe
Colleges being forced to play shorthanded
Quote:
Traditionally, and for the foreseeable future, major junior is the route most often taken to the NHL. Of the 20 Bruins who played in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final, 16 starred in the Western Hockey League, Ontario Hockey League, or Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, the three leagues that operate under the Canadian Hockey League umbrella. Three played juniors in Europe. Just one chose college.
Quote:
“As much as the CHL denies it, there are still instances where money is being paid to the family to lure kids away and de-commit from colleges,’’ Kelly said. “It’s off the books, under the table, whatever you want to call it. If your dad is a fisherman, an out-of-work machinist, or a farmer, and a CHL program comes along and offers you $300,000 in cash, it’s tough for these families not to accept that type of proposal.’’

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08-10-2011, 01:23 PM
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leoleo3535
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Strange that for years Mr. Kelly sat silent on this as the head of the NHLPA.
Now he has a problem?......if tomorrow he became the head of the CHL would he sing the same song or once again change tunes?

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08-10-2011, 03:34 PM
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I have a damn hard time believing players are getting 300,000$ from a junior team!

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08-10-2011, 03:49 PM
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I have a damn hard time believing players are getting 300,000$ from a junior team!
Indeed. However, I have no doubt that there (on occasion) under-the-table payments from (not all) teams in all leagues.

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