Yea it's Toronto's, who got it from Boston, so it's the position of the Bruins that counts.
Anyway after the obvious fact, I asked about this thing in the now-closed 1st thread:
"Has anyone info when the Caps have to decide whether to use the 2nd pick in 2012 or 2013. Can they say just before it's the Avs turn in the 2012 draft that they will choose now, or does the decision have to come earlier than that?"
Takes some time until you can get to vote. I am still excited that we have Varlamov, I can't say we didn't overpay, at this juncture we have, but time will tell on this one.
What McPhee stated was that he was not expecting to get the deal he wanted, done immediately. Not that it was out of left field. Its not like Sherm just called up McPhee and said ill give you a first and a second. Theres obviously some give and take in the conversation. McPhee probably asked for more. Maybe he asked for some kind of roster player or prospect, and Sherm said ill give you a 2nd with your choice. And thats why it may seem odd to you and me, because we know nothing. Theres just too many ways the conversations, which probably happened over several months, could have gone.
You're correct there's nothing that specifically states there were or were not converstations prior to the deal, but from the sounds of it, if there were the talks were not that substantial, and everything really came together on July 1st.
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“I really didn’t want to do it, but he’d indicated that was going to go to play in the KHL and I started to think of different scenarios where we could end up with nothing for him,” said McPhee, citing the ongoing Evgeni Nabokov saga. “Colorado and four other teams were interested and it just came together pretty quick.”
This is the problem i have with certain comments. People argue as if their opinion is actually how something went down. The worst thing someone can possibly do is criticize another, when theyre not in their shoes. You see, youre annoyed with the deal because you feel it was overpayment, and there was no pick protection. But for all we know, he did try to get pick protection, and maybe McPhee's demands were even higher. We just dont know.
So we can speculate, and question things, but i get annoyed when people turn their speculations, into facts.
You make a fair point about people arguing without knowledge of all the talks that went down. There are reasonable levels of assumptions however, and when it involves an organization as secretive as the Avalanche, these have to be made from time to time, otherwise this board would be completely silent. I think it's a little unreasonable to expect people not to make comments without this knowledge.
My original post was meant to lay out a sequence of events that I believe led to Sherman panicing. Most of what I said were factual events, along with a couple of pretty safe assumptions in the Avs interest in Bernier and Schneider at the draft, and Colorado's belief that Vokoun was asking for too much. The conclusion I drew at the end of it was a matter of opinion and assumption. Not sure why people got the two confused. This people could argue as being a poor assumption, but not that the things I listed were opinions dressed as facts.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
As for the pick protection, yes, 6th overall and a 2nd is amazing value for washington. But that still doesnt change the fact that washington has no reason whatsoever to exclude picks 1-5. If the picks end up being 26 and 56, is it still amazing value? Should the caps be allowed to exclude picks 26-30 since theyre not good enough? You say 6th and a 2nd is great value. Ok, what if the Avs finish 5th? Then the caps have to wait another year, while the avs get another great pick to aid the team and further reduce the pick the following year. Do the caps really feel like waiting that much?
And thats what i mean. Its a two way street.
Except that the idea that Washington doesn't have a reason to exclude picks 1-5 doesn't really matter much. Of course they don't have a reason. Nobody has a reason to do anything that doens't benefit them. That's the point of negotiations.
The Caps could ask to exclude picks 26-30 if they want, but that's not really the same thing. A 1-5 pick and a later 2nd rounder is insane value for anything. A 26-30 pick along with a 2nd is still pretty good value. A more likely 6-15 pick with the 2nd is very good value.
There's still risk that the Avs are giving up a great top 10 pick, it just removes the risk they are giving up a 1st overall superstar for a goalie with an injury history and was very likely not going to return to Washington by McPhee and Varlamov's own words.
Taking a chance that they may have to wait for the 2013 pick shouldn't have been that big of a holdup. McPhee stated they were expecting to trade him this year anyway. That means they would have had to work out a deal for him before or during the draft, when GM's will likely want to hold onto their picks in a very good draft. This is all not taking into account the idea that if he was in the KHL or had another injury this year, or didn't regain his starting job, he would have very little value whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
Did Sherman overapay? You seem to think he was fleeced. I, on the other hand, would rather wait to see what the picks are, and how Varlamov fares, before i judge our management. I could easily speculate that LA wanted even MORE for Bernier, and thats why the avs went with Varlamov? You personally wanted Bernier. But would you trade him for 2 consecutive firsts? (this is meant as an example of why speculating is pointless. Im basically spouting off random trade conversations that may or may not have occurred)
You can't talk about value with 20/20 hindsight. You can talk about who ended up winning the trade, or whehter it turned out to be worth it or not, but not about what Varlamov's value should have been, especially when draft picks are involved. That'd be like saying we'll reserve judgement on whether a GM was fleeced for giving up 10 first round picks for Ian Laperrierre, when they end up taking a bunch of Alexander Daigle's that never made it.
I would assume that Colorado wanted Bernier over Varlamov as well, and this is why I think it was pretty obvious they were going after him at the draft. I dont think LA's asking price was more though per se, but rather they didn't feel comfortable giving him up without testing Quick's consistency for one more season.
Washington wasn't in the same situation. They had three quality goaltenders, and Varlamov was clearly on the bottom of the depth chart. Varly would have had to take his starting job back from Neuvrith, and they could have kept their prized prospect Holtby in the minors another year, but what would be the point.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
As i posted in another reply, i think most people confuse risk with overpayment. It is true, we are taking on a pretty big risk here. But risky does not equate to overpayment. When people see a high risk trade, they automatically assume its a bad trade, or an overpayment. There are bad trades. But trades shouldnt be judged until we know their full outcome. And the trade for Varlamov, is COMPLETELY up in the air still.
The idea is risk versus reward, and in combination with the value for the pieces involved at the time. The Avs are risking giving up a 1st overall pick (although unlikely IMO) and giving Washington an option on which year of 2nd rounder they want. The Avs are risking that Varlamov's injuries are behind him. They are risking that he can be a consistent number one in the league. The reward is that Varlamov could be an outstanding starter.
Washington isn't risking that much, apart from their other two very good goaltenders falling apart and Varly excelling. Combine this with the fact that McPhee said he thought Varlamov was KHL bound, and Varly himself all but said this was probably going to happen if he wasn't traded. And they wanted to bring up Holtby. And Varlamov had a string of consecutive injuires. And he lost his starting job.
This means his value shouldn't have been that high, and McPhee should have been very happy with any sort of 1st rounder for him alone, let alone what he got. The idea was that if Sherman would have negotiated better, or even not made it so obvious he had no goalies and was desperate, and perhaps waited a little longer, he could have called McPhee's bluff.
Why make the trade on July 1st anyway? They could have signed Giguerre and given themselves even more strength in negotiations. What was the hurry if not a bit of panic setting in after basically promising Av fans the goaltending situation would be resolved? The only thing I can think of would be to avoid Varlamov signing with a KHL team, and that's doubtfull since Russians seem to hold out the whole summer to do this, and it should have given Sherman more strength in negotiations if he thought this was about to happen.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
Everyone criticized boston for trading away Thornton for scraps, and yet, who would of thought that Boston would get a cup first?
I HOPE sherman tried to protect the pick. But im not gonna criticize if he doesnt have one included when i dont know a single detail about any of the conversations.
Boston did not get good value for Thornton. They didn't get good value at the time, and even with 20/20 hindsight, they still didn't win since the only thing left is basically Andrew Ferrence from when they traded Stuart and Primeau to Calgary. I don't think that really brought them the cup any sooner than keeping Thornton.
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Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman
Perhaps I should have been clearer. I never intended to convey that you insinuated they made an offer. However, it is unlikely that Vokoun's salary demands kept the Avs from making any offer. It should be clear that Vokoun's demands had little to do with the trade, but that Varlamov's sudden availability led them away from Vokoun.
EDIT: And perhaps I shouldn't have been so blunt, but I get sick of people acting as if our GM runs a lemonade stand.
Fair enough. This is where my assumption comes into play. I don't think the Avs were necessarily that gung ho about Vokoun, but I think they definitely would have signed him for the deal he signed with Washington. It's doubtful he would have given a non playoff team the same price as a contender like Washington though.
I would hazard a guess he saw a few teams desperate for a starter and went asking for a 3-5 year deal around $6 M. The Avs were hoping for a 1-2 at around $3 M, and didn't expect him to come down that far. So they went the trade route.
To be clear though, I have no inner knowledge of this, and all things being equal would prefer Varlamov to Vokoun, or most of the other options out there.
I love getting someone with varly's potential. I just don't like the price paid to get him because of his injury history. I think it's too much risk on our end that he could be damaged goods.
Yea it's Toronto's, who got it from Boston, so it's the position of the Bruins that counts.
Anyway after the obvious fact, I asked about this thing in the now-closed 1st thread:
"Has anyone info when the Caps have to decide whether to use the 2nd pick in 2012 or 2013. Can they say just before it's the Avs turn in the 2012 draft that they will choose now, or does the decision have to come earlier than that?"
There is a set time that teams have to declare these things. I want to say it is something like 48 hours after the end of the regular season, but I don't know the specifics.
As for Varly, I went with the majority opinion about how time will tell. I've been high on him since he first hit the scene, and like that the Avs went after him. I'm not a fan of the price, especially when it carries so much risk of slowing down the rebuild should the Avs once again run into issues and find themselves picking high. While I think this squad looks like a bubble team, I do not have the stones to back up that assumption with bets on their future. But that is a part of what being a GM amounts to.
For a 1st 2012 and 2nd 2012 [BOS] or 2nd 2013 [COL]
hey guys! new to the boards and love the comments. lets speculate further, say varly got a start in the playoffs this year for the caps, they make a big run at the finals, maybe even winning the cup. what is varlys value then, does this trade even happen. if so, would people view this as an over payment. I think we got a great young goalie on our hands, and i like what sherman has done up to this point
(except the hunwick deal),this team has an exciting young core and are going to be fun to watch in the next coming years.
if varly would have got a chance to play in the playoffs last year and the caps made a serious run for the cup or for that matter won the cup, what would his value then have been, would he have been available, if he was, would a first and second rounder been enough? everyone have said it -when healthy he is a top 10 goalie. so to me i really dont think this was an over payment. good job sherman on landing our new franchise goalie.
You're correct there's nothing that specifically states there were or were not converstations prior to the deal, but from the sounds of it, if there were the talks were not that substantial, and everything really came together on July 1st.
No doubt that it all came together on july 1st. But i would like to believe that Sherm had an idea of the price to begin with, prior to july 1st.
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You make a fair point about people arguing without knowledge of all the talks that went down. There are reasonable levels of assumptions however, and when it involves an organization as secretive as the Avalanche, these have to be made from time to time, otherwise this board would be completely silent. I think it's a little unreasonable to expect people not to make comments without this knowledge.
Im definitely all for the banter between fans, as you can see. I guess i have this pet peeve and i nitpick through the wording of peoples comments. You see, someone can say, "well i hope he tried to get top 5 protection for the pick." But its generally worded like, "Sherm's dumb. I cant believe he didnt at least TRY to get top 5 protection." And thats my issue. I tend to get annoyed with certain comments that are worded in the context of factual statements.
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My original post was meant to lay out a sequence of events that I believe led to Sherman panicing. Most of what I said were factual events, along with a couple of pretty safe assumptions in the Avs interest in Bernier and Schneider at the draft, and Colorado's belief that Vokoun was asking for too much. The conclusion I drew at the end of it was a matter of opinion and assumption. Not sure why people got the two confused. This people could argue as being a poor assumption, but not that the things I listed were opinions dressed as facts.
Fair enough.
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Except that the idea that Washington doesn't have a reason to exclude picks 1-5 doesn't really matter much. Of course they don't have a reason. Nobody has a reason to do anything that doens't benefit them. That's the point of negotiations.
The Caps could ask to exclude picks 26-30 if they want, but that's not really the same thing. A 1-5 pick and a later 2nd rounder is insane value for anything. A 26-30 pick along with a 2nd is still pretty good value. A more likely 6-15 pick with the 2nd is very good value.
Ah yes, but perception of the value is once again a two way street. To you, a late first and late secod is "still pretty good value." But doesnt that depend on how McPhee views Varlamov? If he sees him as a potential game breaker ,who they couldnt fit into their plans for salary and prospect reasons, doesnt that change the dynamic of the "value"? I tend to believe that GMs know who theyre trading with, and the fact that 4 other teams were involved leads me to think that there were more potential offers on the table.
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There's still risk that the Avs are giving up a great top 10 pick, it just removes the risk they are giving up a 1st overall superstar for a goalie with an injury history and was very likely not going to return to Washington by McPhee and Varlamov's own words.
And theres an equal risk that Varlamov ends up being a top 5 goalie, and the caps lose out badly. And thats what i mean. Theres a risk for both teams. At this point, i dont see any reason why either GM should be worried about what theyve done.
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Taking a chance that they may have to wait for the 2013 pick shouldn't have been that big of a holdup. McPhee stated they were expecting to trade him this year anyway. That means they would have had to work out a deal for him before or during the draft, when GM's will likely want to hold onto their picks in a very good draft. This is all not taking into account the idea that if he was in the KHL or had another injury this year, or didn't regain his starting job, he would have very little value whatsoever.
The thing is, i have no doubt in my mind that Varlamov was in McPhee's plans as a 1A, 1B starter for the caps. The issue probably arose when Varlamov did not agree. I assume he did not want to be put back into a position where he would have to re-win the starter position. McPhee was put in a tough position. He may have wanted to roll with Neuvy and Varlamov and was forced to deal one. The mere fact that he contacted Vokoun immediately confirms that his faith in Neuvirth-Holtby combo was not as strong as it seemed. My guess was that he was putting Varly in a position to accept a much smaller deal, in the hopes that it would help him capwise.
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You can't talk about value with 20/20 hindsight. You can talk about who ended up winning the trade, or whehter it turned out to be worth it or not, but not about what Varlamov's value should have been, especially when draft picks are involved. That'd be like saying we'll reserve judgement on whether a GM was fleeced for giving up 10 first round picks for Ian Laperrierre, when they end up taking a bunch of Alexander Daigle's that never made it.
I completely agree with your first sentence. The issue i have though is Varlamov's value part. If the first and 2nd picks are known, then we can evaluate the value much better. But when both picks are unknown, its impossible to know whether value is correct. I understand your point with lappy and 10 firsts, but this isnt really a good comparable. Halak was traded for a 1st(13th) and a third. So its not entirely unreasonable that the avs paid a 1st(unknown) and a 2nd(unknown). Yes there are surrouding issues like injury, KHL, etc. But that doesnt change the quality of the player being traded. You and I know full well the extent of the avs fear with russians. And they went in with this, no questions asked, made the trade, and signed him immediately. I truly do believe that the KHL was never really an option.
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I would assume that Colorado wanted Bernier over Varlamov as well, and this is why I think it was pretty obvious they were going after him at the draft. I dont think LA's asking price was more though per se, but rather they didn't feel comfortable giving him up without testing Quick's consistency for one more season.
Well this would depend on how the Avs ranked these goalies. Had they felt Bernier was better, theyd be willing to pay more. On the other hand, If they consider them equal, valuewise, it would make sense for the avs to go for the cheaper player.
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Washington wasn't in the same situation. They had three quality goaltenders, and Varlamov was clearly on the bottom of the depth chart. Varly would have had to take his starting job back from Neuvrith, and they could have kept their prized prospect Holtby in the minors another year, but what would be the point.
Except he wasnt at the bottom of the depth chart, based on play. It was based on salary constraints that Varly came with. IF Varlamov was truly at the bottom of the depth chart, there is absolutely no reason for the caps to even contact Vokoun in the first place. If a goalie who has .915SP and sub 2.50GAA for your team is a 3rd stringer, goaltending is not an issue.
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The idea is risk versus reward, and in combination with the value for the pieces involved at the time. The Avs are risking giving up a 1st overall pick (although unlikely IMO) and giving Washington an option on which year of 2nd rounder they want. The Avs are risking that Varlamov's injuries are behind him. They are risking that he can be a consistent number one in the league. The reward is that Varlamov could be an outstanding starter.
Washington isn't risking that much, apart from their other two very good goaltenders falling apart and Varly excelling. Combine this with the fact that McPhee said he thought Varlamov was KHL bound, and Varly himself all but said this was probably going to happen if he wasn't traded. And they wanted to bring up Holtby. And Varlamov had a string of consecutive injuires. And he lost his starting job.
Ah yes, but you misview the risk with the caps. They are also risking that they traded a quality top goalie, for what may essentially be a late 1st and late 2nd, two pieces, who may never make any type of contribution. You foresee no risk because of Neuvirth and Holtby in the pipeline. But i tend to ignore whos in the background, and focus on the actual pieces being moved (similar to shatty being dealt because of Elliott). Holtby, it does not seem, was ever intended to be brought up. And Neuvirth has had one, somewhat legitimate season, in which he posted somewhat average numbers. And this is the evidence to show that Varlamov was the thrid stringer? who carried little value? and was expendable? Other than inury, there isnt a single shred of evidence that points to Neuvirth being kept over Varlamov.
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This means his value shouldn't have been that high, and McPhee should have been very happy with any sort of 1st rounder for him alone, let alone what he got. The idea was that if Sherman would have negotiated better, or even not made it so obvious he had no goalies and was desperate, and perhaps waited a little longer, he could have called McPhee's bluff.
Why make the trade on July 1st anyway? They could have signed Giguerre and given themselves even more strength in negotiations. What was the hurry if not a bit of panic setting in after basically promising Av fans the goaltending situation would be resolved? The only thing I can think of would be to avoid Varlamov signing with a KHL team, and that's doubtfull since Russians seem to hold out the whole summer to do this, and it should have given Sherman more strength in negotiations if he thought this was about to happen.
Because the avs probably dont feel they overpaid. Hence the whole, not waiting, calling bluffs, etc. If they truly feel he was worth what they paid, what does waiting accomplish? You then risk the possibility of losing on something that you originally though was worth it to begin with, especially with a rumored 4 other teams interested. The problem here is that YOU see it as overpayment, and so you project that idea to avs managment. In essence, we dont know how they feel about the value. The fact that they made the trade to begin with, makes me believe that they either a) feel the value was fair or B) think they got him for cheap.
I dont believe any GM feels theyre getting punked in a deal at the time they make it. They probably waited for July 1st just to get an idea of the goalie market, Vokoun. He was probably the only thing that stalled the deal from getting accomplished even sooner.
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Boston did not get good value for Thornton. They didn't get good value at the time, and even with 20/20 hindsight, they still didn't win since the only thing left is basically Andrew Ferrence from when they traded Stuart and Primeau to Calgary. I don't think that really brought them the cup any sooner than keeping Thornton.
Well, yeah, i think it did. Boston has the cup, without Thornton, and SJ, with Thornton doesnt. The idea is that Boston, with this trade, put them in a position to win the cup. The Thornton trade isnt necessarily the tipping factor, but it leads to having more money to sign guys like Chara, sign different players like Savard, to fill the center position, and changes the entire dynamic of a team. Every trade doesnt need to be assessed as a player vs player debate. But the surrounding moves made because of the trade play a factor. Andrew Ference was a very key piece to the cup win. And the deals that were made possible but the trade helped them win a cup. In a vaccuum, the trade is easily won by SJ, but in real life, Boston won a cup, SJ didnt.
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Fair enough. This is where my assumption comes into play. I don't think the Avs were necessarily that gung ho about Vokoun, but I think they definitely would have signed him for the deal he signed with Washington. It's doubtful he would have given a non playoff team the same price as a contender like Washington though.
I would hazard a guess he saw a few teams desperate for a starter and went asking for a 3-5 year deal around $6 M. The Avs were hoping for a 1-2 at around $3 M, and didn't expect him to come down that far. So they went the trade route.
To be clear though, I have no inner knowledge of this, and all things being equal would prefer Varlamov to Vokoun, or most of the other options out there.
I think every team in the league would have signed him for that much, even teams with legitimate starters. The caps got a great deal. To call vokouns agent and to offer such a pitiful contract shows just how little money they had to play with when resigning varlamov.
I said this before, the only thing i'm worried about for this trade is Varlamov's injury problem last year, and the curse the Avs have when it comes to injuries. New comers getting hurt, like Flash, Mueller. I hope it doesn't happen with Varlamov.
But i would think when a team pulls the trigger on a deal like this, giving up a 1st round pick, they evaluate carefully. I'm sure they have done researches to find out if Varlamov is in real danger to get hurt again.
If that's the case i'm sure he is healthy to go, and the injuries are behind him. But i'm still going to have my fingers crossed somewhat.
Ah yes, but perception of the value is once again a two way street. To you, a late first and late secod is "still pretty good value." But doesnt that depend on how McPhee views Varlamov? If he sees him as a potential game breaker ,who they couldnt fit into their plans for salary and prospect reasons, doesnt that change the dynamic of the "value"? I tend to believe that GMs know who theyre trading with, and the fact that 4 other teams were involved leads me to think that there were more potential offers on the table.
Definitely, but for the reasons I mentioned before, there were just too many factors involved (KHL, another injury, not gaining back starter job) leading to a pretty good chance Varlamov's value would be much lower next season. An experienced GM uses this pressure in his favor during negotiations.
I also don't hold much wieght on the idea that there were four other teams "interested." Just because they expressed interest, doesn't mean they would have offered anything close to what Sherman did.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
And theres an equal risk that Varlamov ends up being a top 5 goalie, and the caps lose out badly. And thats what i mean. Theres a risk for both teams. At this point, i dont see any reason why either GM should be worried about what theyve done.
Right, as I mentioned, but you have to qualify this with Holtby, and Neuvrith falling apart and not being a solid number one goalie. If Holtby delivers on his high promise, or Neuvrith continues to be the guy, it doesn't matter much if Varly delivers on his promise considering the return they got.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
The thing is, i have no doubt in my mind that Varlamov was in McPhee's plans as a 1A, 1B starter for the caps. The issue probably arose when Varlamov did not agree. I assume he did not want to be put back into a position where he would have to re-win the starter position. McPhee was put in a tough position. He may have wanted to roll with Neuvy and Varlamov and was forced to deal one. The mere fact that he contacted Vokoun immediately confirms that his faith in Neuvirth-Holtby combo was not as strong as it seemed. My guess was that he was putting Varly in a position to accept a much smaller deal, in the hopes that it would help him capwise.
It's a bit of speculation, but there was a lot of unhappiness from Varlamov's agent about the Washinton medical staff. I don't know how much that had to do with things, but I think Varlamov was sincere in his statmenets that he didn't expect a big contract from the Caps since he hadn't earned it, and that he had no problem with competition as a goalie, since this goes with the job.
I would imagine McPhee had plans to go with Holtby and Nevrith, until Vokoun came to him with the low number. Vokoun contacted him not the other way around reportedly. He probably saw it as an opportunity to go with a vet star goalie that fit under their cap, rather than two youngsters again with a team that is a contender right now.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
I completely agree with your first sentence. The issue i have though is Varlamov's value part. If the first and 2nd picks are known, then we can evaluate the value much better. But when both picks are unknown, its impossible to know whether value is correct. I understand your point with lappy and 10 firsts, but this isnt really a good comparable. Halak was traded for a 1st(13th) and a third. So its not entirely unreasonable that the avs paid a 1st(unknown) and a 2nd(unknown). Yes there are surrouding issues like injury, KHL, etc. But that doesnt change the quality of the player being traded. You and I know full well the extent of the avs fear with russians. And they went in with this, no questions asked, made the trade, and signed him immediately. I truly do believe that the KHL was never really an option.
Yes but here's my point. The draft picks have a set value in and of themself. It's not affected by who is drafted. The only affect on them is what pick it is, and with a slight affect on how strong the draft is.
As for the Russian thing, yes this was a bit surprising, but Varlamov all but said they agreed on him playing for Colroado and probably at least a little on contract demands, which from the sound if it wasn't a big factor from Varly.
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Did McPhee have to ensure that you would actually sign with Colorado before trading you?
It’s obvious that when a team is willing to give up this much, they know in advance that I will sign. Yes, there was an agreement. My agent called me and said there was a possibility to go to Colorado. As soon as I heard it, I said that we need to agree on a deal no matter what.
Except he wasnt at the bottom of the depth chart, based on play. It was based on salary constraints that Varly came with. IF Varlamov was truly at the bottom of the depth chart, there is absolutely no reason for the caps to even contact Vokoun in the first place. If a goalie who has .915SP and sub 2.50GAA for your team is a 3rd stringer, goaltending is not an issue.
Ah yes, but you misview the risk with the caps. They are also risking that they traded a quality top goalie, for what may essentially be a late 1st and late 2nd, two pieces, who may never make any type of contribution. You foresee no risk because of Neuvirth and Holtby in the pipeline. But i tend to ignore whos in the background, and focus on the actual pieces being moved (similar to shatty being dealt because of Elliott). Holtby, it does not seem, was ever intended to be brought up. And Neuvirth has had one, somewhat legitimate season, in which he posted somewhat average numbers. And this is the evidence to show that Varlamov was the thrid stringer? who carried little value? and was expendable? Other than inury, there isnt a single shred of evidence that points to Neuvirth being kept over Varlamov.
By bottom of the depth chart, I mean he had lost his starting job to Nevrith, and Holtby was a prized prospect for them. Even Kolzig, their new goalie coach said he though Holtby could be the best of the three when he got the job. Varly was up for a new deal and was set to be the most expensive of the three. Hence the most likely to be moved.
Unless you buy into the conspiracy theories of Sherman and McPhee stringing Vokoun along, McPhee hadn't planned on signing him until after Varly was traded. He had said they were find with Holtby and Nevrith going into the season.
He was not a"thrid stringer" but an injury prone, KHL bound, goaltender with a lot of promise, but behind both Holtby and Nevrith in what most fans, and what looks to be management viewed as their likely goaltender of the future. Having two other goalies like this greatly affects the risk and downside to trading him away.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
Because the avs probably dont feel they overpaid. Hence the whole, not waiting, calling bluffs, etc. If they truly feel he was worth what they paid, what does waiting accomplish? You then risk the possibility of losing on something that you originally though was worth it to begin with, especially with a rumored 4 other teams interested. The problem here is that YOU see it as overpayment, and so you project that idea to avs managment. In essence, we dont know how they feel about the value. The fact that they made the trade to begin with, makes me believe that they either a) feel the value was fair or B) think they got him for cheap.
I dont believe any GM feels theyre getting punked in a deal at the time they make it. They probably waited for July 1st just to get an idea of the goalie market, Vokoun. He was probably the only thing that stalled the deal from getting accomplished even sooner.
This is a matter of opinion, and neither of us have much to bring with us to substantiate our point. I don't know whether Sherman thought he was worth what he paid, that's not really the point. If he did that brings upon a similar argument, that he was off in his value IMO. Both things have the same reason behind them in my eyes. What they gave up was not his true value, and if they would have negotiated into the summer more, and especially after signing what was a decent fallback starter in Giguerre, they could have, and IMO would have talked McPhee down because he should have felt pressure to move Varly before he bolted to Russia.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
Well, yeah, i think it did. Boston has the cup, without Thornton, and SJ, with Thornton doesnt. The idea is that Boston, with this trade, put them in a position to win the cup. The Thornton trade isnt necessarily the tipping factor, but it leads to having more money to sign guys like Chara, sign different players like Savard, to fill the center position, and changes the entire dynamic of a team. Every trade doesnt need to be assessed as a player vs player debate. But the surrounding moves made because of the trade play a factor. Andrew Ference was a very key piece to the cup win. And the deals that were made possible but the trade helped them win a cup. In a vaccuum, the trade is easily won by SJ, but in real life, Boston won a cup, SJ didnt.
You can't get hung up on this results oriented thing for everything. It doesn't apply to value at the time of the trade. SJ not having a cup is a compltely different situation than Boston having one without Thornton.
Money isn't a good argument either. If they had Thornton they just wouldn't have Savard, who didn't play in the playoffs anyway.
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS
I think every team in the league would have signed him for that much, even teams with legitimate starters. The caps got a great deal. To call vokouns agent and to offer such a pitiful contract shows just how little money they had to play with when resigning varlamov.
I don't think that really came into play. If there were to have been a big turn of events, and varlamov ended up singing with Washington and playing for them next year, I don't think he would have got too hung up on money from the sound of it.
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Did you feel that Washington wouldn’t give you a chance to start this season?
You know, I honestly think they would. If I returned to the Caps and showed myself well, I would’ve been given the starting job. No, it was more about my own feeling that I needed a climate change. A fresh start.
When I asked George McPhee what he would do if you were leaning towards the KHL, he answered “Let him go.” Did this influence your feeling towards Washington?
Not at all. We simply couldn’t agree on a deal and I wanted a change.
Did they offer you the same money as Neuvirth got?
No, I was given an OK deal, though quite different from what I got in Colorado. I don’t think that McPhee was unfair to me. It’s not like I was able to show myself as someone truly outstanding in these three years. I don’t feel like I had earned huge money yet. But I wanted to sign a three-year deal so that I wouldn’t have to change teams right before the Olympics.
yup! we have alot to be excited about, a franchise goalie, a franchise d man , a franchise center, a franchise winger, and alot of young talent surrounding this nucleus.
yup! we have alot to be excited about, a franchise goalie, a franchise d man , a franchise center, a franchise winger, and alot of young talent surrounding this nucleus.
I'm extremely excited at the potential of this team. I'd argue that we have two potential franchise centers (I think Stastny has become incredibly underrated league wide after one bad season), however I don't think we have a franchise-level winger. I think we have EJ and Varlamov that can be amongst the very best in their positions as they have an insane amount of pure raw talent. I think we'll always be flipping between Dutch and Stastny as to who is better, Duchene has more raw ability, however Stastny is quietly one of the best two-way players in the league IMO.
If our team ever develops a proper system I think we'll see Stastny absolutely flourish, he's one of those guys that just knows where to be that he just needs players to get into position for him to set them up. That's one of the reasons I'd love to get Cammalleri on this team, I think he and Stastny would be absolutely dynamite together. It's also why I'm really hoping Landeskog gets paired with Stastny, Gabriel looks to be one of those players that can be extremely effective on the cycle and that can battle his way to open space. Having Jones in there to do the same thing will only give Stastny more options to roll with.
Well when LaCroix explained that he was going to build the team again like he did before, he wasn't lying.
They have their two franchise centers, they have their goalie, and they also now have a top defenseman. The only thing that bothers me is that I think from here on out you're going to see a mixture of kids coming up and a mixture of kids being dealt to get to the next level (i.e. acquiring wingers and other top pairing d-men). It's worked before, so it's unfair for anyone to knock the way this team has been built - the Avs have two Stanley Cups in the mantle that very well prove this is a "way to win" and a "way to build the team" but as a fan I think we become so engrossed with draft picks and prospects that it's easy to criticize when deals like this go down.
