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What about Gordie....

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08-05-2004, 01:09 PM
  #1
HeavyD
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What about Gordie....

With all the recent threads on who is the best player ever, and how their production would be nowadays, etc etc etc. Im wondering why Mr. Hockey's name is never mentioned. I've always considered him to be the best player ever for as long as I can remember. Over 20g/year for 22 years straight, 6 hart, 6 art, 4, cups, and 103pts. as a 41 year old. He played in 6 diff decades of the NHL, and scored 41 points when he was 51 years old. Anyhow, his name is rarely thrown around on these boards from what ive seen, so im wondering why people think he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Lemeiux, Orr, and Gretz.

Could u imagine Gretzky making a return to the NHL in 2012 and scoring 41 points? Or how about Mario doing it in 2017? Anyhow most people will make the argument for PPG, but he is the ultimate model of consistency, and I beleive his era was more defensive oriented as well. Thoughts?

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08-05-2004, 01:15 PM
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Jeff Goldblum
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From what I hear, he certainly was the model of consistency. But he just didn't have the natural talent that Gretz, Lemieux, and Orr had. Not saying he wasn't extremely talented (which he obviously was), but that those three are just so far ahead of anyone in terms of talent. I do put him 4th on my list though.

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08-05-2004, 08:02 PM
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Imagine Peter Forsberg, but 10 times better. Thats Gordon Howe. If he was selfish, he could have easily had 50 goals a year for 15 years.

Howe and Gretzky are the best ever, in that order. Orr was great, but didn't have the longevity.

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08-05-2004, 08:10 PM
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John Flyers Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Imagine Peter Forsberg, but 10 times better. Thats Gordon Howe. If he was selfish, he could have easily had 50 goals a year for 15 years.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Easy there tiger.

Howe only scored more than 44 twice in his career, and only 5 times did he score more than 38.

Gretzky is the most unselfish player to ever play and had 4 consecutive years of 70+ goals and went 50+ in 9 out of 10 seasons.

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08-05-2004, 08:30 PM
  #5
hockeytown9321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Easy there tiger.

Howe only scored more than 44 twice in his career, and only 5 times did he score more than 38.

Gretzky is the most unselfish player to ever play and had 4 consecutive years of 70+ goals and went 50+ in 9 out of 10 seasons.
And I said if Howe were selfish he would've had better numbers than Gretzky. I'm not saying Gretzky was selfish or anything like that. Howe was far and away the most dominat player for over a 15 year period, an era in which goals were a lot harder to come by than in Gretzky's era(again, not knocking Gretzky).

Howe played the same style as Forsberg, only he was much, much better, and I'm not slighting Floppa.

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08-05-2004, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
And I said if Howe were selfish he would've had better numbers than Gretzky. I'm not saying Gretzky was selfish or anything like that. Howe was far and away the most dominat player for over a 15 year period, an era in which goals were a lot harder to come by than in Gretzky's era(again, not knocking Gretzky).

Howe played the same style as Forsberg, only he was much, much better, and I'm not slighting Floppa.
So he was able to score more but wasnt selfish ?

Maybe he should have been a little more selfish then, that would have saved him 5 Rocket Richard butt kicking in a row.

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08-05-2004, 08:45 PM
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hockeytown9321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoupeStanley
So he was able to score more but wasnt selfish ?

Maybe he should have been a little more selfish then, that would have saved him 5 Rocket Richard butt kicking in a row.
Maybe so, but then again, nobody is arguing about Richard being the best ever, are they?

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08-05-2004, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Maybe so, but then again, nobody is arguing about Richard being the best ever, are they?
Well. Thats the eternal debate between Habs and Wings fans. Howe was a physical specimen. The Rocket was a goal scoring machine.

Gimme a Rocket.

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08-05-2004, 08:51 PM
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hockeytown9321
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Originally Posted by CoupeStanley
Well. Thats the eternal debate between Habs and Wings fans. Howe was a physical specimen. The Rocket was a goal scoring machine.

Gimme a Rocket.
i know, just ribbing. Richard obviously was a better pure goal scorer, but Howe was a much more complete player.

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08-05-2004, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
i know, just ribbing. Richard obviously was a better pure goal scorer, but Howe was a much more complete player.
I gonna agree here. But that brings me to this, what is the goal of the game ?

Game 7 - Habs vs Wings OT

Howe and Richard on the ice. Where do you place your bet ? I'll take it on Richard flying down the wings, cutting inside with 2 defenseman on his back scoring on the backend.

Howe deserved his 4th overall ranking based on durability, his 801 goals and his 6 decade of play.

But on the ice, both in their prime, head to head. I'll take the Rocket anyday.


Last edited by CoupeStanley: 08-05-2004 at 09:08 PM.
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08-05-2004, 09:22 PM
  #11
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Best player ever is really hard to judge.

It's all depending on the perspective..

If I'm a goalie, I fear Lemieux the most, cause he's money in the bank 1 on 1

If I'm a dman, I fear Gretzky cause he'll probably see something that I wont saw on the replay and make me looks like a fool.

If I'm a coach, I fear Orr the most, cause I know that I won't have the upper hand when he's on the ice. (half and more) The guy is in the +/- insane

If I'm trying to sell hockey, making people beleive that I'm some kind of a hockeytown and I want to put a face on the franchise, I take Howe.

If the game is on the line, I fear The Rocket.

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08-06-2004, 12:59 AM
  #12
Rob Paxon
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In my opinion Howe was a great player who was made a legend due to his dedication, toughness, and longevity. But he was never the player Gretzky, Orr, or Lemieux were. He played a different game then those guys, sans Orr, which makes it hard to compare. He obviously didn't have the skill but looking at the complete package, I still don't see him as being nearly as great as those three.

What I'm trying to say is that though he was one of the greatest players strictly going by his playing, he is thought of much higher than even that because of factors other than his actual hockey ability.

Messier was never the player Lemieux was, but because of his dedication, character, and longevity he is up there in points and therefor, in many years, he may be thought of by some as a comparable player.

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08-06-2004, 01:24 AM
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Interesting debate because I would rate Richard and Howe together with Orr as the close runners up to Lemiuex and Gretzky. I think Gretz is simply the best ever. But the guys right behind him are so damned close and were such great players it is damned hard to separate them. A name which many don't mention in the greatest category, but who I was really impressed by was Mike Bossy. Sure he had a very short career, but Ken Dryden was the same and seems to get a lot more plaudits than Bossy.

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08-06-2004, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law Dawg
Interesting debate because I would rate Richard and Howe together with Orr as the close runners up to Lemiuex and Gretzky. I think Gretz is simply the best ever. But the guys right behind him are so damned close and were such great players it is damned hard to separate them. A name which many don't mention in the greatest category, but who I was really impressed by was Mike Bossy. Sure he had a very short career, but Ken Dryden was the same and seems to get a lot more plaudits than Bossy.
Mike Bossy... that's one player I wish I could have seen play. Him and Bobby Orr; both were before my time.

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08-06-2004, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Staze19
Mike Bossy... that's one player I wish I could have seen play. Him and Bobby Orr; both were before my time.
Bossy was one of the purest goal scorers that every graced the NHL. A true master to watch, the guy could score in any way imaginable .....

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08-06-2004, 04:31 PM
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i think a good comparison to gordie howe would be todd bertuzzi. Both thugs who are cheap shot artists. i'm sorry, talent-wise gordie howe is nowhere near lemieux or gretzky. the guy was talented, no doubt about it, but he earned a lot of his points through bullying and intimidation.

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08-06-2004, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonzyg
i think a good comparison to gordie howe would be todd bertuzzi. Both thugs who are cheap shot artists. i'm sorry, talent-wise gordie howe is nowhere near lemieux or gretzky. the guy was talented, no doubt about it, but he earned a lot of his points through bullying and intimidation.
Except he had control. He took numbers and waited for an opportunity. And he didn't maim anybody. (Fontinato recovered and that was a fight Fontinato started if I remember it right)

I got him 4th all time as well but I will say this; a team of Howe's would have beaten a team of Lemieuxs or Orrs or Gretzkys or Richards hands down in a seven game series assuming equal goaltending and all in their primes. (the Orr team might have been close but Orr played his best hockey after his knees were already starting to give out, maybe young Orrs playing forward and "old".as in 28 years old, Orrs on defence would be close)

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08-06-2004, 06:02 PM
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GORDIE Howe? You mean to tell me that Mark had a father who played in the NHL? I never knew that!

This is almost as shocking as finding out that Paul McCarthy was in a band before Wings.

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08-06-2004, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law Dawg
Bossy was one of the purest goal scorers that every graced the NHL. A true master to watch, the guy could score in any way imaginable .....
Having seen Bossy in his prime (I had season tix to the Isles back then), I can second that. However, in that era, the real artist on the ice was Guy Lafluer.

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08-06-2004, 06:58 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
I'm not slighting Floppa.
Who?

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08-07-2004, 12:19 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Imagine Peter Forsberg, but 10 times better. Thats Gordon Howe. If he was selfish, he could have easily had 50 goals a year for 15 years.
Here we go again with another exaggeration of past greatness. I seriously doubt that Howe was 10x better than Peter Forsberg. Howe played in an era where the competition was much smaller, slower and much worse condition wise, and they all played a simple up and down game. Howe was a dominant force in his time, and he is one of the top 4 or 5 players of all time, but the difference isn't that big.

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08-07-2004, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
GORDIE Howe? You mean to tell me that Mark had a father who played in the NHL? I never knew that!

This is almost as shocking as finding out that Paul McCarthy was in a band before Wings.


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08-07-2004, 06:28 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaymzB
This Mcarthy guy who played for the Wings...was he on Gordie's line?

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