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08-10-2004, 11:23 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
My bad, your right Kostitsyn sucks, oh well there's always Milroy. :lol
I never said "Kostitsyn sucks", just that he is a long way from ever playing on Montreal's first line. I don't say that Milroy will be a star, only that he is very underrated here and will be a lot better than anyone seems to want to give him credit for.

It is way too easy to throw out previous year's prospects when they don't provide instant gratification and pin all your hopes on the latest ones. Neither extreme is usually correct. Kostitsyn is not the savior and Milroy is not worthless. They are actually very close as prospects and my money would be on Milroy as being a more significant contributor.

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08-10-2004, 11:29 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by db23
I never said "Kostitsyn sucks", just that he is a long way from ever playing on Montreal's first line. I don't say that Milroy will be a star, only that he is very underrated here and will be a lot better than anyone seems to want to give him credit for.

It is way too easy to throw out previous year's prospects when they don't provide instant gratification and pin all your hopes on the latest ones. Neither extreme is usually correct. Kostitsyn is not the savior and Milroy is not worthless. They are actually very close as prospects and my money would be on Milroy as being a more significant contributor.


No you just bash him at every single chance, it's very annoying since you've never seen the guy play. How do you know how far away he is from playing on the Habs 1st line when all you have are some numbers to go off. What a joke.

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08-10-2004, 11:43 PM
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Well, "bashing him" seems to be anything short of saying that he will be Pavel Bure with better size and good knees. All I've ever tried to point out is that he hasn't done anything to warrant that kind of expectation, or anything close to it. Everyone seems to think that it doesn't matter that he was mediocre in the RSL or unremarkable in his last international tournaments, that he didn't get along with his coach, that he has very little experince and almost no success at higher levels of competition. But it matters to me, and until he proves otherwise, I'm not going to pin very high hopes on him. It isn't like scouts and observers have never been wrong before about a prospect.

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08-10-2004, 11:58 PM
  #79
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db23 , your just very annoying

You have never seen a Habs prospect play yet you keep bashing Kostitsyn and praising those who had success in stats(Perezhogin,Milroy..etc)

When Gainey,Timmins and Savard say that Kostitsyn is the habs best prospect and when Gauthier says he has one of the best arsenals he has ever seen then you got to say that Andrei so far is the man. I can care less what the hell he did over in Russia or what he did when he was 17 or what he did when he was 10-11-12-13-14-15-16 and so on.. what I care about is the present and the futur and you got to see that Kostitsyn has a good chance to not only crack the Habs lineup but be a huge contributor and a factor not only this season but for many years to come.

There is a reason why Locke fell down to 4th round. I'm sure if you were a scout, you would of taken him in the 1st round, possibly even in the top 3 since he destroyed the league he was playing in but I would that all these professionel scouts passed up on him for a reason and maybe some would of passed him up until maybe the 6th-7th or maybe not even draft him at all.

There is also the HEART,DETERMINATION,DEVELOPEMENT,UNDERSTANDING that are also taken into consideration, not just size and skill. Take a look at Micheal Ryder, would you have predicted he would of got 60 something pts last year? Kostitsyn has the vision, the skating , the shots and apparently the will to succed as a NHL Star in Montreal and yes I say apparently because I don't know the man personally and i'm not gonna say each day this guy will suck because he doesn't have the heart or determination or he sucks because he didn't score at that time and that game. He is also surrounded by hockey people like Andre Savard, Bob Gainey,Doug Jarvis, which will affect his developement one way or another. Also what affects players is the coach, does he have confidence in you? does he bench you? does he play other players more then you? That also affects stats and other factors in the player.

You haven't seen Kostitsyn play so stop talking all this ******** about him. and even if you have seen him play, I am sure you haven't seen him enough to have a full complete opinion about his skills and his personnality.

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08-11-2004, 12:06 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Well, "bashing him" seems to be anything short of saying that he will be Pavel Bure with better size and good knees. All I've ever tried to point out is that he hasn't done anything to warrant that kind of expectation, or anything close to it. Everyone seems to think that it doesn't matter that he was mediocre in the RSL or unremarkable in his last international tournaments, that he didn't get along with his coach, that he has very little experince and almost no success at higher levels of competition. But it matters to me, and until he proves otherwise, I'm not going to pin very high hopes on him. It isn't like scouts and observers have never been wrong before about a prospect.

I don't know of anyone who thinks he will be anything near Pavel Bure. Guess we'll see what he does. The problem I have with you is that you don't know what your talking about, yet you go on and on like you do. Tell me, how has Kostitsyn been unremarkable in his last international tournaments?

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08-11-2004, 12:19 AM
  #81
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10 points in 6 games against the likes of Japan is nothing to write home about. Especially when you are only the third highest point producer on your own line. When some guy who is drafted in the fourth round outscores him by 40% and is selected the teams' most valuable player you can't say Kostitsyn lit it up . If you don't know of anyone who compared him to Bure, Kovalev, Marian Hossa, etc. you haven't been reading the comments here any more carefully than you do mine.

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08-11-2004, 12:22 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
10 points in 6 games against the likes of Japan is nothing to write home about. Especially when you are only the third highest point producer on your own line. When some guy who is drafted in the fourth round outscores him by 40% and is selected the teams' most valuable player you can't say Kostitsyn lit it up .


First off it was 10 pts in 5 games, and 2nd his last international game was with the WC's where he was 3rd on the team in scoring against men. As for the U-20s, he had more goals then anyone else, so yea he tore it up just as he did at the WC's and the U-18's the year before.

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08-11-2004, 12:29 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
db23 , your just very annoying

You have never seen a Habs prospect play yet you keep bashing Kostitsyn and praising those who had success in stats(Perezhogin,Milroy..etc)
.
Don't make ridiculous statements. Its hard enough to deal with the lack of attention span, butchery of the English language, and constant misquoting that I run into here. But when you make a statement that is a pathetic lie, you should apologise for it.

Do you think you're the only person in the world with access to a hockey rink, a television, or a satellite dish? I might not go to the extremes that some here do to get film of these guys, but I'll bet I've seen Perezhogin play os often as you have and I'll bet I've seen Milroy play more often than you have.

Gainey only said that Kostitsyn was "one of the team's best prospects", and that was on the day he signed him. Bob can be a little more honest since he wasn't responsible for that draft. As for Locke, he only scored 48 points in what would have been his draft year had he not opted out. How does that make him so attractive to a stats buff?

I could go and dissemble every statement you made here, but I won't bother. But don't spread lies on this board. Opinion is one thing, outright lies are another.


Last edited by db23: 08-11-2004 at 12:38 AM.
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08-11-2004, 12:31 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
First off it was 10 pts in 5 games, and 2nd his last international game was with the WC's where he was 3rd on the team in scoring against men. As for the U-20s, he had more goals then anyone else, so yea he tore it up just as he did at the WC's and the U-18's the year before.
Whatever......

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08-11-2004, 03:45 AM
  #85
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db23, I'm talking about you watching Kostitsyn and not Perezhogin,Milroy.

2nd- Locke teared it up in juniors so I guess you are pretty high on him.

3rd- how can we take your comments about Kostitsyn seriously when you haven't seen him play. He played against Japan and those other "weak" teams..what do you want him to do? His team isn't great so he has to play the weaker teams ...it's like Canadian soccer..your not gonna see them play France,Italy,Germany and other powerhouses but they play within themselves and within their league or competition but some player on canadian soccer is prolly as good as others in those top countries. Same thing with Kostitsyn. I'm gonna trust our scouts and the report on what they see.

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08-11-2004, 06:53 AM
  #86
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I for one, don't give two shirts how a prospect does in juniors or against weak competition (like from Japan, for example) because it really has no bearing on NHL success. It's not how much they score, it's how they score. Some moves will work great in the OHL or AHL, but if you try them in the NHL you'll just be giving the puck away. If a prospect can play phiscally, skate well, shoot accurately and quickly and shoot hard, these are things that matter. There's other stuff too, but the point is if you're scoring junior quality goals in the juniors, it doesn't mean diddly come the big leagues. Just ask Jason Ward.

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08-11-2004, 03:20 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeaky
I for one, don't give two shirts how a prospect does in juniors or against weak competition (like from Japan, for example) because it really has no bearing on NHL success. It's not how much they score, it's how they score. Some moves will work great in the OHL or AHL, but if you try them in the NHL you'll just be giving the puck away. If a prospect can play phiscally, skate well, shoot accurately and quickly and shoot hard, these are things that matter. There's other stuff too, but the point is if you're scoring junior quality goals in the juniors, it doesn't mean diddly come the big leagues. Just ask Jason Ward.
Geez you should have told that to Gretzky when he said - "they never ask
how you scored your points, only HOW MANY.."

As for Jason Ward, you couldn't have picked a worse example. Ward was never a big scorer as a junior, I don' think he got above 80 points in a season. He came to the pros with a rep as a hardworking two way winger, which is pretty mcuh what he has been.

On the other hand, (and this is what makes your statement so ridiculous) he would occasionaly score a BRILLIANT GOAL. He did it at the WJC and never scored agian the whole tournament. He did it when he came up with the Habs and never scored another all year a couple of seasons back.


Last edited by db23: 08-11-2004 at 03:26 PM.
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08-11-2004, 03:27 PM
  #88
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This is going nowhere I suggest you all stop. But you won't.

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08-11-2004, 03:39 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Leachmeister2000
This is going nowhere I suggest you all stop. But you won't.
Sorry, I couldn't help but respond to the humor of this guy taking Gretzky's most famous quote and turning it around by 180 degrees. Or using Jason Ward as an an example to support the contention that "it doesn't matter how many goals you score, just how you score them". If you have any memories of Ward when he first came on the scene you will appreciate the humor.

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08-11-2004, 03:41 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
10 points in 6 games against the likes of Japan is nothing to write home about. Especially when you are only the third highest point producer on your own line. When some guy who is drafted in the fourth round outscores him by 40% and is selected the teams' most valuable player you can't say Kostitsyn lit it up . If you don't know of anyone who compared him to Bure, Kovalev, Marian Hossa, etc. you haven't been reading the comments here any more carefully than you do mine.
In the development camp Kostitsyn showed up the other Habs prospects with his skills, so if he's a dud the others are ECHL players.

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08-11-2004, 04:09 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Geez you should have told that to Gretzky when he said - "they never ask
how you scored your points, only HOW MANY.."

As for Jason Ward, you couldn't have picked a worse example. Ward was never a big scorer as a junior, I don' think he got above 80 points in a season. He came to the pros with a rep as a hardworking two way winger, which is pretty mcuh what he has been.

On the other hand, (and this is what makes your statement so ridiculous) he would occasionaly score a BRILLIANT GOAL. He did it at the WJC and never scored agian the whole tournament. He did it when he came up with the Habs and never scored another all year a couple of seasons back.
I wont bother refuting Gretzky's quote, because it obviously has nothing to do with this.

There's nothing wrong with Ward as an example, I think he illustrates my point quite well. The vast majority of Wards points came from things that just don't work in the NHL, that was the point I was trying to make. He went from above a ppg in the AHL to like 10 points a year in the NHL. I don't care if every now and then he could score a brilliant goal, the point is he could produce at non-NHL levels with non-NHL offensive skills.

Now compare that to guys like Ribs or Ryder, who never had stats as nice as Ward did in the AHL, but continued on to score nicely in the NHL.

That's why comparing stats doesn't work. On a stat-by-stat comparison of their non-NHL careers, Ward has better numbers. But Ribs and Ryder ended up as the better NHL scorer because their skillsets adapt much better to the NHL.

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08-11-2004, 04:33 PM
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Ward wasn't a big scorer as a junior. Less than Ribeiro by a long shot and less than Ryder as well. He never had a big AHL season until his fourth year as a pro. Ribeiro came into the AHL as a 20 year old and scored nearly a point a game. Ryder had a very comparable AHL season to Ward though he was a year younger. Both of those guys were drafted as future offensive players. As for Ward only scoring 10 points, he was injured half the year and playing on the fourth line for most of the rest of the time. At the beginning of the year he was ahead of Ryder on the depth chart and if he hadn't of gotten hurt would likely have stayed ahead of him. The other thing you want to remember is that there is not gaurantee and very littel likelyhood that Ribeiro and Ryder can repeat the seasons they had last year. In Ryder's case especially, I think it is a one time thing. If Ward can stay healthy he could very easily jump back ahead of Ryder on the depth chart for the coming season.

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08-11-2004, 04:39 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey
In the development camp Kostitsyn showed up the other Habs prospects with his skills, so if he's a dud the others are ECHL players.
Kostitisyn never showed anyone up in camp. Not according to the reports that came out at the time. The guy who caught everyone's eye early on was Corey Locke. Kostitsyn was a disappointment in most of the early reports I read. Then when he started to get into the swing of things he was taken off to the hospital for the last few days of the camp.

All this talk of how he "dazzled in camp" is mainly revisionist. I'm sure he has the skills, but that is only one part of the equation. Pavel Brendl has as good a set of offensive tools as anyone around, but he has yet to crack the NHL on a regular basis.

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08-11-2004, 05:12 PM
  #94
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Just in case you didn't notice in the BG press conference thread this is an excerpt of what Gainey had to say about Kostitsyn:

Quote:
It’s easy to see that he’s very, very gifted,” he said. “He has a passion and a love to play. We need to give him the time to develop from a boy into a man, but he’s going to be a fun player to have on our team, a good player.”
I don't think that Pavel Brendl has the same passion for the game but prove me wrong.

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08-11-2004, 05:28 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roke
I don't think that Pavel Brendl has the same passion for the game but prove me wrong.

db can't help you with that. Passion can't be put in numbers.

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08-11-2004, 05:37 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Kostitisyn never showed anyone up in camp. Not according to the reports that came out at the time. The guy who caught everyone's eye early on was Corey Locke. Kostitsyn was a disappointment in most of the early reports I read. Then when he started to get into the swing of things he was taken off to the hospital for the last few days of the camp.

All this talk of how he "dazzled in camp" is mainly revisionist. I'm sure he has the skills, but that is only one part of the equation. Pavel Brendl has as good a set of offensive tools as anyone around, but he has yet to crack the NHL on a regular basis.

Well I was there and Kostitsyn was clearly ahead of everyone else, although he wasn't working hard, he showed great skating, speed, and what a shot. He scored some wicked goals and had some flashy moves. Kostitsyn was the best player I saw at camp. Heino-Lindberg was the biggest surprise, he was very good. Locke showed better skating, foot speed, and very good accuracy with his shot, but he also was the smallest player out there, and didn't do too well with the lower body strength drills.

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08-11-2004, 06:49 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
Well I was there and Kostitsyn was clearly ahead of everyone else, although he wasn't working hard, he showed great skating, speed, and what a shot. He scored some wicked goals and had some flashy moves. Kostitsyn was the best player I saw at camp. Heino-Lindberg was the biggest surprise, he was very good. Locke showed better skating, foot speed, and very good accuracy with his shot, but he also was the smallest player out there, and didn't do too well with the lower body strength drills.
As I recall, you only got there the last couple of days. Prior to that I read about how Locke WON THE BUNGEE CORD PULLS AGAINST PLAYERS MUCH BIGGER THAN HIMSELF. It seems that is a pretty good indication of lower body strength.

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08-11-2004, 06:52 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by EaGLE1
db can't help you with that. Passion can't be put in numbers.
Sure it can. The player with the best combination of passion and skill is going to score the most points, help his team win the most games, the most Cups, the most post season awards etc., etc. Those are all stats.

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08-11-2004, 09:54 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
As I recall, you only got there the last couple of days. Prior to that I read about how Locke WON THE BUNGEE CORD PULLS AGAINST PLAYERS MUCH BIGGER THAN HIMSELF. It seems that is a pretty good indication of lower body strength.


There you go again being wrong, no I was there from monday till wed. The Bungee cord pulls were along the boards, and not against any players. The straps were tied to four players, and all four would skate in different directions. Locke showed some hard work and effort, but his leg strength isn't great.

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08-11-2004, 11:05 PM
  #100
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Well, I don't know what happened on the 3 days out of 10 that you were there, but I distinctly recall someone posting that they were amazed that Locke won the bungee pull contests he was in. Probably it was at a different rink or on a different dayl.

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