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MLD 2011 Assassination Thread

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Old
08-05-2011, 06:22 PM
  #76
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
McGimsie is more than just a setup guy - he was also a prolific goal scorer in his time, as well. IMO, he's one of the top overall offensive players in this draft, arguably the best. He's a midget though, which is why it's good to have Mickowski's size on the line.

Droz and McGimsie are all-offense (and a ton of it), but Mickowski was a very good two-way player and excellent digger. He's also fast enough to keep up with them, which was key for us.
A very good two-way player and excellent digger sounds a bit like an exaggeration to me. I view him more as a guy that's a definite positive in his own zone, but not a very good two-way player. I admit I probably underestimated his ability as a corner guy, he should more than suffice there.

Quote:
There is no "designated shooter," but both Stastny and Dahlen can score goals.

Stastny is actually a very balanced offensive player. Over his two good seasons in the NHL before his injury (aged 29 and 30), he was 19th in goals per game, 24th in assists per game, and 14th in points per game. Prior to that, he scored 181 goals and 141 assists in 238 Czech league games (99% sure the Czech league didn't count second assists so most players would have more goals than assists) and 5 goals in 6 games in the 1980 Olympics. I believe he led the Czech league in goals in 1978-79 over some very good players.

Marian spent a significant amount of time playing with with brothers Anton and Peter Stastny. Obviously, Ribeiro can't hold Peter's jock, but they are both pass-first players.

And Dahlen has a fairly high ratio of goals to assists in his career (304-354).

Joe Pelletier said that Dahlen would be the perfect compliment to the Sedins if he played today. I see this as a line that can cycle the puck really well with Ribeiro and Stastny both being great passers and Dahlen charging the net and dominating the corners. Stastny can shoot as well as pass. I do agree that it would be a bit more balanced if Ribeiro was a better goal scorer, but you can't have everything. I think this line will still be quite effective, with only a little bit of Stastny's playmaking wasted.
I'm sticking to that the line could use more of a pure shooter than Stastny with Dahlen still crashing the net. Stastny's numbers could also be inflated by playing with his brothers.
Quote:
Question: Do you think we should dress 6'3" Jeff Carter for our starting lineup? He's definitely a better player than Pivonka ever was, but he's only been a relevant player for 4 seasons. Is that enough for starting duties here? Would a Kapanen-Carter-Sullivan line or a Sullivan-Carter-Pettersson line be better?
Carter would definitely add size and scoring ability to your bottom 6, but I don't know where he exactly fits. I can't think of a real good spot to maximize his talents given the other players in your bottom 6. What center and RW in your bottom 6 are you most willing to bench? If I know that, maybe I could think of something.

Quote:
I think they're more than "decent," personally. I think Evans is one of the best shutdown guys in the draft (how many pure shutdown defensemen ever finished 5th in Norris voting at the height of the Original 6?)
I just throw the word decent around a lot. I didn't mean it as a sleight to your pairing. Fair enough, I can buy Sullivan on the point on a PP.

Quote:
I'll let vecens handle Cooke on the PK. Obviously Tippett would be better there, but we do like Cooke's ability to be an annoying SOB at even strength. And Cooke does have the one noteworthy finish in Selke voting.

Cooke seems better offensively than Tippett, though still not great. Agree that Tippett brings more defensively, but Cooke is definitely a solid defensive player himself. In a realistic MLD season, they'd both probably see about 50 games each (filling in for each other and occasionally someone else). We'll see who we end up making our official starter though.
It might be just because I hate Matt Cooke and the Penguins, but I really just don't buy him in the MLD for whatever reason. He never stood out on the PK whenever he played against the Flyers for me personally. I posted his PK TOI finishes on his team when he was first picked and they aren't that impressive. Okay he can agitate, but I think McKay can start stuff and finish it well enough to carry a line in that department. Tippett's elite PK ability seems like a more useful thing to have in your starting lineup. Again, it might be because I hate Matt Cooke, but I just don't see it.

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Old
08-05-2011, 07:38 PM
  #77
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Neither Golonka nor Stümpel are Josefs, both are called Jozef. Just sayin'

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08-05-2011, 08:37 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
1st Line

Riley was near the top of my list for LWs available, so he's a good guy to have here. Chouinard is a solid playmaker with two top 10s, and Havlat can be a goal scorer or a playmaker, providing versatility, not to mention his ability to play either wing. The only problem I see here is a guy that provides two-way play and grittiness. Riley might bring some, but I'd ideally like to have more. A talented group, but may not have all the pieces needed to maximize their potential.

2nd Line

I like this line. Sutter provides some goalscoring and grit to the line, McCourt provides strong two-way ability, and so does Sinisalo. I probably like it because it's built like the way I try to build my teams. They're not going to dominate offensively, but should be effective in all aspects of the game.

3rd Line

I like this line as well. I'm a big fan of any Broad Street Bully, and you've got two here. Kindrachuk was the guy I wanted as a 3rd line center. He can play physical and also put up some points. Saleski is big and physical as well. Duguay provides two-way ability and is the best offensive player on the line. I like this line a lot. They won't be overmatched physically, and are good in both zones.

4th Line

I'm not sure what to think of this line. Irvine is a prototypical 4th line grinder, Ruuttu is a playmaker that provides some two-way ability, and Bubnik was an early era European star goalscorer. They fit together chemistry-wise, and can chip in some goals. But, I'm not sure if they can be effective in limited ice time.

Forwards Overall

A pretty decent group. 1st line could use some more intangibles, 2nd and 3rd lines are well built, and the 4th could be a dark horse weapon if they're playing well.

1st Pairing

Classic puck mover-stay at home guy pairing here. Guevremont is a good offensive defenseman, and Godfrey provides physicality. A good 1st pairing.

2nd Pairing

I'm not really a fan of Sheldon Souray personally, but he's got a good partner in Seabrook that can cover for him. This will be a tough pairing to play against, both are good in terms of physicality. A decent 2nd pairing.

3rd Pairing

Nothing earth shattering here, same puck mover-stay at home guy formula. Won't hurt you, but won't be difference makers.

Defense Overall

Overall, a pretty good bunch. I don't see any big holes anywhere, and all 3 pairing should be able to play in pretty much every situation. Not a fan of Souray, but still a good group.

Goaltending

Johnston is probably a little above average in terms of starters, not a fan of Theodore, but not a big deal.

Spares

Your spares provide a lot of versatility, intangibles, and two-way play.

PP

A talented 1st unit, my only concern is if Riley is a good enough down low guy. He's certainly got the size, but will he use it? 2nd PP unit is a little sub par I think, Sinisalo had one great year on the PP, but that's it.

PK

PK forwards on both units look good, Hedican-Quinn isn't great as a defensive pair on a PK, but is okay. Overall, good PK units.

Coaching

Carlyle is a good modern day coach who always seems to have a team in contention in Anaheim despite having a few stars and a bunch of scrubs.
Appreciate the review Billy, I'll be adding a few notes on your team in between studying in the next few days.

Is it just me or is the second line being underestimated offensively? I think with a playmaker in McCourt, and two two-way goal-scorers on both sides makes for a lethal goal-scoring combination that covers both ends of the ice.

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Old
08-05-2011, 09:05 PM
  #79
BenchBrawl
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Thx for assassinating my team Dave , I will answer with more depth once I'm alone tonight or tomorrow , but you said my first line lacked the physical edge which I disagree with , I think Eric Vail can play this role perfectly as well as Liscombe on the 2nd.My 4th line is also gonna be plekanec-knuble or langkow-laperriere depending on the match up I'm facing.I fel you are underestimating Plekanec defensive abilities.

to be continued...

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Old
08-05-2011, 09:38 PM
  #80
Dwight
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I love Plekanec as much as the next Habs fan - he's been Mr. Everything for us the past 2 seasons and has 4 straight 20+ goal campaigns to go along with lots of special teams time. I definitely think he's underrated defensively in the league today.

In an all-time sense, though, I'm not so sure. I guess he can be an adequate 4th line centre at this point, at best.

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Old
08-05-2011, 11:47 PM
  #81
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Warroad Lakers


GM: DaveG
Coach: Bill Dineen
Captain: Scott Mellanby
Alternate: Patrice Bergeron
Alternate: Steve Konowalchuk
Alternate: Wes Walz

Hibbert "Hib" Milks - Herb Carnegie - Carson Cooper
Alexander Skvortsov - Andrew Cassels - Scott Mellanby
Magnus Arvedson - Patrice Bergeron - Paul Holmgren
Steve Konowalchuk - Wes Walz - Wayne Presley

Joe Cooper - Dave Lewis
Sergei Starikov - Igor Stelnov
Janne Niinimaa - Alex Levinsky

Arturs Irbe
Giles Meloche

Extras:
D/F Frank "Coddy" Winters
C Carl Kendall
D Sean Hill
RW Justin Williams


PP 1:
Hib Milks - Herb Carnegie - Carson Cooper
Patrice Bergeron - Janne Niinimaa

PP 2:
Alexander Skvortsov - Andrew Cassels - Scott Mellanby
Joe Cooper - Sergei Starikov

PK 1:
Wes Walz - Wayne Presley
Joe Cooper - Dave Lewis

PK 2:
Steve Konowalchuk - Andrew Cassels
Sergei Starikov - Igor Stelnov

PK 3:
Magnus Arvedson - Patrice Bergeron
*rotation* - Alex Levisnsky

1916 or earlier - Coddy Winters, Carl Kendall
1917-1942 - Carson Cooper, Alex Levisnky, Hib Milks
1943-1965 - Herb Carnegie
1966-1979 - Dave Lewis, Gilles Meloche, Sergei Starikov, Paul Holmgren, Alexander Skvortsov, Bill Dineen
1980-1994 - Scott Mellanby, Arturs Irbe, Igor Stelnov, Sean Hill, Wayne Presley, Wes Walz, Steve Konowalchuk, Magnus Arvedson, Janne Niinimaa, Andrew Cassels
1995-2004 - Justin Williams, Patrice Bergeron
in 2011 - Patrice Bergeron, Justin Williams, Janne Niinimaa
First Line

Cooper and Milks are both shoot first players, and have four top 10s between them. There will be no lack of goalscoring talent on this line. Carnegie was supposedly a great playmaker, but we don't really have stats to back it up, just quotes. The biggest problem I see with this line is a lack of two-way play, and grit. Who's going to forecheck and backcheck? This line is talented, but I don't know if it has all the pieces to be successful.

Second Line

I like this line. Cassels brings good two-way ability, Skvortsov can be your shooter, and Mellanby is as good a 2nd line glue guy in the MLD. This line fits together well and has all the necessary components, but isn't the most talented out there. They will be effective, but probably won't score as much as most 2nd lines.

Third Line

A pretty good 3rd line. Holmgren provides the toughness, Bergeron is an elite two-way player but didn't do it for long. Arvedson is a good defensive specialist. This line isn't going to be that good offensively, but will certainly be good defensively.

Fourth Line

This should be another effective checking line. They'll be very good in their own zone, but like the 3rd line, is not going to contribute much offensively.

Forwards Overall

This group brings a good amount of two-way ability, except for the first line. The bottom 6 is going to be very effective defensively, but won't contribute much offensively. A potential problem I see is that the top 6 isn't dynamic enough to score the vast majority of the goals. The 1st line has the talent, but isn't perfectly constructed. The 2nd is well constructed, but doesn't have all the talent.

1st Pairing

A definite shutdown first pairing. Two good defensive defensemen that provide physicality. Will not provide much offensively at all, but will be very good defensively.

2nd Pairing

The Soviet 2nd pairing looks pretty good. Starikov provides a little bit of everything, but I'm not sure about Stelnov. Either way, they should be a pretty decent pairing.

3rd Pairing

A good contrasting pair. Niinimaa will provide puck moving ability, and Levinsky can cover for him while being a good skater himself. A good 3rd pairing.

Defense Overall

This unit should be good in their own zone. No defensive weak links, but their ability to move the puck up ice and provide offense from the blueline is lacking.

Goaltending

Irbe was good on bad teams, and Meloche is a decent backup. Nothing great, but not anything that will hurt you.

Spares

I was looking at Winters for awhile, Hill can be a fill-in defensive defenseman, not too convinced Justin Williams belongs, and don't know anything about Kendall.

PP

1st unit is talented, but is there a net presence or guy with physicality? And how much point on the PP has Bergeron played? Not a great 2nd unit if you ask me, Cooper doesn't belong on a PP and Starikov is average.

PK

Your strong two-way forwards make your PK forwards quite good, even on the 3rd unit. Your tendency to take defensive defensemen helps your PK as well. PK units all look good.

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Old
08-06-2011, 10:09 AM
  #82
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Carnegie was supposedly a great playmaker, but we don't really have stats to back it up, just quotes.
I was abe to find some stats, but they aren't exactly extensive....

1945 is the only season where I could find league stats. Carnegie was 6th in points, 6th in goals, and 6th in assists. The leader had 101 points to Carnegie's 54.

1946-48 - couldn't find anything. The crappy part is that those are his best 4 seasons statistically....

1949 - 7th on his team in scoring, not even close to top-10 in the league.

1950 - 2nd in his team, outside the top-10 in league.

1951 - 3rd on his team, outside league top-10. He was 9th in league assists.

1952 - 5th in his team, outside league top-10.

1953 - 5th in team, outside league top-10.




Considering he played in a 3rd or 4th rate league, those numbers are very unimplressive. I don't buy him as an MLD scoring line player. (I did think he was one before looking at the numbers)

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Old
08-06-2011, 11:31 AM
  #83
Velociraptor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Just wanted to say I love that Bill Brydge is finally getting the credit he deserves. Now, here are your Philadelphia Quakers:



Philadelphia Quakers
Coach: Red Berenson

Red Green-Robbie Ftorek(A)-Bob McDougall
Alexander Bodunov-Nicklas Backstrom-Charlie Sands
Mike Krushelnyski-Michal Pivonka-Anders Kallur
Rick Dudley-Stephane Yelle-Mark Johnson(A)
Yevgeny Zimin, Alexander Uvarov, Tony Tanti

Phat Wilson(C)-Bill Juzda
Alex Smith-Jim Dorey
Drew Doughty-Kim Johnsson
Hal Laycoe

Daren Puppa
Joe Daley



PP1: Green-Ftorek-McDougall
Wilson-Doughty

PP2: Bodunov-Backstrom-Johnson
Smith-Dorey

PK1: Yelle-Kallur
Wilson-Juzda

PK2: Krushelnyski-Pivonka
Smith-Dorey

PK3: Ftorek-Johnson
Juzda-Johnsson

pre-1916: Bob McDougall, Phat Wilson(technically can't fulfill a requirement because he never played in a professional league)
1917-1942: Alex Smith, Red Green, Charlie Sands, Bill Juzda
1943-1965: Yevgeny Zimin, Alexander Uvarov, Hal Laycoe
1966-1979: Robbie Ftorek, Alexander Bodunov, Anders Kallur, Rick Dudley, Mark Johnson, Jim Dorey, Joe Daley, Red Berenson(coach)
1980-1994: Daren Puppa, Mike Krushelnyski, Michal Pivonka, Kim Johnsson, Tony Tanti
1995-2004: Stephane Yelle
in 2011: Nicklas Backstrom, Drew Doughty
Philadelphia Quakers observation:

- Good first line, similar mentality to your ATD first line (Duff - Beliveau - Kurri) Green is about as useful as Duff is offensively (not very) Ftorek is gritty, but I don't think he'll be the most effective two-way player, his offense is a huge plus. McDougall is also another accomplished two-way forward, the line should be able to score their fair share of goals and remain strong defensively, but other teams shutdown lines could target Ftorek, and I'm not sure Red Green will be up to the task to defend.

- Backstrom is a good two-way play-making center, has a decent resume thus far. Bodunov has offensive talent, and Sands serves as the glue guy on the line. They are more offensively capable than defensively. So a guy like Backstrom will have to demonstrate the most of his defensive game in order for the line to be solid both ways.

- My favorite line of yours. Pivonka was a good two-way center who could put up points, Krusha on the wing brings a similar game and Kallur complements the line very nicely with his penalty killing expertise. This line may not be completely up to the task of shutting down the oppositions first lines (not sure if that's the direction you planned to go with this line, Kallur is definitely capable but I'm not entirely sure about the other two) but it is probably the best offensive third line of the draft.

- I like this line as well, Mark Johnson is someone we thought about as a spare/fourth line, he brings a pretty good offensive game. Yelle was one of the better faceoff men/penalty killers in the past few years, and was a key component to the Flames '04 Cup run. Rick Dudley is a good two-way player as well. Your bottom-6 lacks no offense, that's for sure.

- Good group of two-way forwards, should keep a lot of games low-scoring and close.

- Wilson is an enigma, nobody knows how good he was or how good he could have been. Statistics showed that he was a reasonably good offensive player. Bill Juzda is someone I wish I hadn't overlooked, solid stay-at-home D who complements Wilson's offensive style nicely.

- Another decent contrast pairing, Dorey wasn't a guy I was completely sold on, but he isn't bad offensively. Alex Smith is a defensive rearguard who should pioneer the defensive success of the pairing.

- Doughty is a solid two-way defenseman, who is only going to get better. We were going to bid for him, but did not want to give away assets for him, seeing as he is valuable, but not valuable to give up players with more proven peaks than him. Johnsson is a good defensive defenseman who chipped in occasional offense when the time was right.

- I'm not a huge fan of Puppa, but I guess he's a decent starter, his near Vezina season is a good credential for this level.

- Your special teams are good, but I think Phat Wilson is being overplayed (1st pairing on everything) maybe consider moving him down to the second penalty killing unit as it seems his niche was offense.

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Old
08-06-2011, 11:38 AM
  #84
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
- Doughty is a solid two-way defenseman, who is only going to get better.
That's irrelivant. All that matters is what he has accomplished right now. He's got 1 and a half seasons of ATD-worthy hockey.

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Old
08-06-2011, 12:30 PM
  #85
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's irrelivant. All that matters is what he has accomplished right now. He's got 1 and a half seasons of ATD-worthy hockey.
Says the guy who said he was probably higher on Doughty than anyone here.

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Old
08-06-2011, 12:32 PM
  #86
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My team is built in a similar way to my team in the ATD, there is no matchup that we aren't satisfied with. We're comfortable having all combinations of forward lines and pairings out against our opposition. They all possess good enough two-way ability between all of them to hold their own. Not that we are going to constantly roll four lines, but if we want to, we can.

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Old
08-06-2011, 01:05 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
No-Names from Nowhere


Coach: Terry Crisp

Olli Jokinen - Scott Gomez - Vincent Lukac
Geoff Sanderson - Jason Allison - Aleksander Kozhevnikov
Baldy Cotton - Todd Marchant - Ken Schinkel
Murph Chamberlain - Forbes Kennedy - Shorty Green

Bert Marshall - Tom Bladon
Mike McEwen - Bill Brydge
Bryan Berard - Eric Brewer

Kelly Hrudey
Brian Hayward

Spares: Oren Frood - LW/C, Fred Higginbotham - D, Dave Creighton - C/W, Bryan Watson - D/RW

PP#1
Olli Jokinen - Jason Allison - Vincent Lukac
Mike McEwen - Tom Bladon

PP#2
Aleksander Kozhevnikov - Scott Gomez - Geoff Sanderson
Bryan Berard - Bill Brydge

PK#1
Todd Marchant - Baldy Cotton
Bert Marshall - Bill Brydge

PK#2
Forbes Kennedy - Ken Schinkel
Eric Brewer - Tom Bladon

PK#3
Murph Chamberlain - Scott Gomez
Bert Marshall - Bill Brydge


Era Requirements:
1916 or earlier - Shorty Green, Oren Frood, Fred Higginbotham
1917 to 1942 - Baldy Cotton, Bill Brydge, Murph Chamberlain
1943 to 1965 - Bert Marshall, Forbes Kennedy, Ken Schinkel, Bryan Watson
1966 to 1979 - Vincent Lukac, Tom Bladon, Mike McEwen, Aleksander Kozhevnikov, Terry Crisp
1980 to 1994 - Jason Allison, Geoff Sanderson, Kelly Hrudey, Todd Marchant, Brian Hayward
1995 to 2004 - Scott Gomez, Olli Jokinen, Bryan Berard, Eric Brewer
Active in 2011 - Scott Gomez, Olli Jokinen, Todd Marchant, Bryan Berard
1st Line

Gomez provides strong playmaking ability from the center position, but is very assist-biased. His linemates help him out in the goalscoring department, both being good goalscorers themselves. I simply don't buy Jokinen as a 1st line player, let alone in his off position. He needs a specialized environment to be successful, and I don't think this is it. I don't buy him as the power forward/physical presence you're trying to sell him as either. This line has talent and will score goals, but is rather soft and only average defensively.

2nd Line

The chemistry of this line works, you have a physical presence, a speedy shooter, and a slow but effective playmaker. But like your 1st line, they aren't going to provide all that much in terms of two-way play. They'll score goals, but they'll also let them up.

3rd Line

Looks like a pretty good checking line. All 3 guys are accomplished checkers and provide some physicality as well. They aren't going to contribute much in the offensive zone, but they will be able to serve a role and serve it well.

4th Line

Prototypical grinding 4th line. Green adds some offense. This line will be good on the forecheck and will wear down opponents. Won't provide that much offense or defense, but will be physical.

Forwards Overall

A top 6 that will definitely score goals, but won't be great defensively. A bottom 6 that will be able to check effectively, but not score much.

1st Pairing

Not really a fan of the 1st pairing, but you were put at a disadvantage when selecting. Bladon was largely a specialist and I don't buy him on a top pairing. I could see Marshall as a lesser end physical stay at home #2 to a strong #1, but he doesn't have that here.

2nd Pairing

I like Brydge, and think he might be your 2nd best defenseman. He can cover for McEwen and provide two-way play. Good 2nd pairing.

3rd Pairing

I'm not really a fan of either player, Berard was a specialist by definition, and Brewer never really impressed me as a player, seemed to miss a lot of games due to injury.

Defense Overall

Considering the position you were put in, it's not a bad group. But in the scheme of things compared to other teams, your defense isn't that good.

Goaltending

Both are above average in comparison to the other goalies in the draft.

PP

1st PP unit looks good, plenty of talent. 2nd unit looks pretty good as well.

PK

1st PK unit looks good, but the 2nd and 3rd PK unit forwards don't look that impressive.

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Old
08-06-2011, 01:09 PM
  #88
Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Says the guy who said he was probably higher on Doughty than anyone here.
It's a valid point, though. We can't include speculation as to a player's future career here. It's hard enough to put players from history in context, without having to imagine a current player's future as well.

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08-06-2011, 01:14 PM
  #89
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Says the guy who said he was probably higher on Doughty than anyone here.
Did I say something that was not a fact?


I'm higher on him as a current player, not an all-time player.

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Old
08-06-2011, 01:15 PM
  #90
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
It's a valid point, though. We can't include speculation as to a player's future career here. It's hard enough to put players from history in context, without having to imagine a current player's future as well.
Oh, I know. We're judging this as if Doughty's career is already over due to some debilitating injury and that is all we are judging him on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Did I say something that was not a fact?


I'm higher on him as a current player, not an all-time player.
Yes, you did. He has 3 ATD relevant seasons as far as I'm concerned. All 3 of his seasons in the league, he has led the Kings in both overall TOI and ES TOI.

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08-06-2011, 01:26 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I was abe to find some stats, but they aren't exactly extensive....

1945 is the only season where I could find league stats. Carnegie was 6th in points, 6th in goals, and 6th in assists. The leader had 101 points to Carnegie's 54.

1946-48 - couldn't find anything. The crappy part is that those are his best 4 seasons statistically....

1949 - 7th on his team in scoring, not even close to top-10 in the league.

1950 - 2nd in his team, outside the top-10 in league.

1951 - 3rd on his team, outside league top-10. He was 9th in league assists.

1952 - 5th in his team, outside league top-10.

1953 - 5th in team, outside league top-10.




Considering he played in a 3rd or 4th rate league, those numbers are very unimplressive. I don't buy him as an MLD scoring line player. (I did think he was one before looking at the numbers)
Yeah it's definitely hard to say. It's going strictly by anecdotal evidence at this point, though when a player as highly regarded as Jean Beliveau speaks as highly of Carnegie as he did I tend to put a lot of weight into that personally.

What really sucks is that we don't have the numbers for that entire league in his best years. We can extrapolate the numbers out but there's no real way to verify if they would be correct. Looking at the numbers surounding his best seasons he would have finished with at least one scoring title there, and a few more top 10s, but again, it's a fallacy that I don't like getting myself into to simply assume league scoring stayed stable at that point, especially as those were the first years post WWII.

I'll do a bit of digging in the Beliveau autobiography I have if I can find it. That may at the very least give some good quotes to use in regards to his play compared to the rest of the league at that time.

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08-06-2011, 01:33 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
1st Line

Gomez provides strong playmaking ability from the center position, but is very assist-biased. His linemates help him out in the goalscoring department, both being good goalscorers themselves. I simply don't buy Jokinen as a 1st line player, let alone in his off position. He needs a specialized environment to be successful, and I don't think this is it. I don't buy him as the power forward/physical presence you're trying to sell him as either. This line has talent and will score goals, but is rather soft and only average defensively.
Agree with the lack of defense and toughness. This line was built to score goals, and in terms of pure offfensive skills, I think it's one of the most talented around.

Jokinen is definately a first line player here. You might not buy him as a power winger, but his offensive credentials are as impressive as any first liner around.

Quote:
2nd Line

The chemistry of this line works, you have a physical presence, a speedy shooter, and a slow but effective playmaker. But like your 1st line, they aren't going to provide all that much in terms of two-way play. They'll score goals, but they'll also let them up.
Agreed on the lack of defense again. Like the first line, it was built for offense, and in that regard, it is very strong.

Quote:
3rd Line

Looks like a pretty good checking line. All 3 guys are accomplished checkers and provide some physicality as well. They aren't going to contribute much in the offensive zone, but they will be able to serve a role and serve it well.

Agreed with relative lack of scoring. Schinkel is decent offensively, but nothig special.

Quote:
4th Line

Prototypical grinding 4th line. Green adds some offense. This line will be good on the forecheck and will wear down opponents. Won't provide that much offense or defense, but will be physical.
Disagree with the lack of offense and defense. They aren't great offensively, Chaberlain and Green can both put up points. Chamberlain, based on percentages, is as good as a guy like Gracie, who is a 1st liner. He also produced very well in the play-offs.

Chamberlain and Kennedy are both quite strong defensively.


I like Chamberlain enough that I would consider him as a 4th liner next ATD.

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Forwards Overall

A top 6 that will definitely score goals, but won't be great defensively. A bottom 6 that will be able to check effectively, but not score much.
Since I missed out on the first 4 rounds, I had to build my team this way.

Quote:
1st Pairing

Not really a fan of the 1st pairing, but you were put at a disadvantage when selecting. Bladon was largely a specialist and I don't buy him on a top pairing. I could see Marshall as a lesser end physical stay at home #2 to a strong #1, but he doesn't have that here.

2nd Pairing

I like Brydge, and think he might be your 2nd best defenseman. He can cover for McEwen and provide two-way play. Good 2nd pairing.

3rd Pairing

I'm not really a fan of either player, Berard was a specialist by definition, and Brewer never really impressed me as a player, seemed to miss a lot of games due to injury.

Defense Overall

Considering the position you were put in, it's not a bad group. But in the scheme of things compared to other teams, your defense isn't that good.
Agreed. I don't think I have a terrible blueline, but it certainly is below average here.

Brewer was good enough to play for Canada in two "best of the best" tournaments, so I think he's a little under-rated.

Quote:
Goaltending

Both are above average in comparison to the other goalies in the draft.
Agreed.

Quote:
PP

1st PP unit looks good, plenty of talent. 2nd unit looks pretty good as well.
Agreed. I think I'll have one of the most explosive PPs in the draft.

Quote:
PK

1st PK unit looks good, but the 2nd and 3rd PK unit forwards don't look that impressive.
Forbes Kennedy was a great PKer. Murph Chamberlain was a strong defensive player, so he can kill penalties. Ken Schinkel was a regular PKers. Gomez is the only one I would question, but he's there mostly as a back-up plan.


Thanks for the review. It was very fair and balanced.

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08-06-2011, 01:37 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Yes, you did. He has 3 ATD relevant seasons as far as I'm concerned. All 3 of his seasons in the league, he has led the Kings in both overall TOI and ES TOI.
His first year was no better than an average season. In his rookie season, he led a group of hanks in ice time.

Last season, he sucked untill Christmas. After Christman, he played at Norris-level callibre, but that's still just half a season.

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08-06-2011, 01:41 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Yeah it's definitely hard to say. It's going strictly by anecdotal evidence at this point, though when a player as highly regarded as Jean Beliveau speaks as highly of Carnegie as he did I tend to put a lot of weight into that personally.

What really sucks is that we don't have the numbers for that entire league in his best years. We can extrapolate the numbers out but there's no real way to verify if they would be correct. Looking at the numbers surounding his best seasons he would have finished with at least one scoring title there, and a few more top 10s, but again, it's a fallacy that I don't like getting myself into to simply assume league scoring stayed stable at that point, especially as those were the first years post WWII.

I'll do a bit of digging in the Beliveau autobiography I have if I can find it. That may at the very least give some good quotes to use in regards to his play compared to the rest of the league at that time.
Assuming the league scoring levels remained steady, Carnegie would likely have a 1st in 1948. In 1946 and 47, he likely would have been somewhere between 4th and 7th. He was MVP of the league for all 3 of those seasons, but it was still a weak league.... weaker than the AHL even.

Quotes about a player's offensive ability only carry so much weight when we have numbers that contradict them.

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08-06-2011, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
His first year was no better than an average season. In his rookie season, he led a group of hanks in ice time.

Last season, he sucked untill Christmas. After Christman, he played at Norris-level callibre, but that's still just half a season.
I can name two defenseman who are not "hanks" on that roster in his rookie season, the Kings have had a good defense even since Lubomir Visnovsky was traded.

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08-06-2011, 02:11 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Thanks for the review. It was very fair and balanced.
That's how I try to make em.

My internet crapped out halfway through the review so I was just going on prior knowledge about your 4th line and 2nd and 3rd PK units because your bios wouldn't open. Looking at them, your PKs should be good enough.

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08-06-2011, 02:40 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I can name two defenseman who are not "hanks" on that roster in his rookie season, the Kings have had a good defense even since Lubomir Visnovsky was traded.
Like who? As second year Jack Johnson? A 37 year old Sean O'Donnell? Maybe a rookie Kyle Quincey?

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08-06-2011, 02:58 PM
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Like who? As second year Jack Johnson? A 37 year old Sean O'Donnell? Maybe a rookie Kyle Quincey?
Johnson was in his second year yes, but he was still playing around and even above his standards (not the initial standards.) Matt Greene is one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL, he's rock solid and he isn't as useful in playing as many minutes as Doughty, but he's a valuable defenseman who could log maybe closer to 20 minutes a game.

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08-06-2011, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Johnson was in his second year yes, but he was still playing around and even above his standards (not the initial standards.) Matt Greene is one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL, he's rock solid and he isn't as useful in playing as many minutes as Doughty, but he's a valuable defenseman who could log maybe closer to 20 minutes a game.
I almost mentioned Greene, but he was 5th in ice time that season.... and that was by far the most ice time he's ever received! He's never played 20 minutes per game, and outside of 2009, Greene has never even approached 18 minutes per game.

I like him as much as the next guy. He's a good character player, but he is nothing close to one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL.

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08-06-2011, 04:09 PM
  #100
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- yes, chamberlain is awesome. Just yesterday when researching another player I read a short article where chamberlain is touted as a calder candidate because his defense was so good it made up for Apps' offense. I shoulda saved it for you, dreak. As for the percentages, I don't have the figures to check that now, but he very well could be close to Gracie (who, in fairness, only became a first liner due to skill set complementing). My system accounts for ww2 more appropriately than raw numbers, so I can check into that later.

- dought has three full seasons of significant hockey that add to his atd/mld resume. No less! He was a top-30 defenseman instantly, then 2nd-best (not a Green fan), then perhaps 10th this year (norris voting implies as much but it is not really that significant I admit)

Like christ, even most defensemen drafted towards the end of the mld have no significant allstar consideration and were sub-first pairing on a regular basis. Dreak, you even talk about being 3rd or 4th in icetime like it means something (and it does, it means a decent season generally). Three seasons of being a bonafide #1 d-man should not be scoffed at.

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