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Old
08-06-2011, 04:02 PM
  #101
BillyShoe1721
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Like who? As second year Jack Johnson? A 37 year old Sean O'Donnell? Maybe a rookie Kyle Quincey?
Need I bring up the list of defensemen Bryan Berard was behind on his team in ES TOI, considering Doughty and Berard are serving pretty much the same function on each of our teams? If you're going to use that argument against Doughty, I can use it against Berard.

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Dennis Vaske, Barry Richter, David Harlock, Nick Boynton, Steve Poapst, Nathan Dempsey, Jon Klemm, Duvie Westcott, Rusty Klesla, Radek Martinek, Bruno Gervais, Freddy Meyer & Chris Campoli

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Old
08-06-2011, 04:23 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- yes, chamberlain is awesome. Just yesterday when researching another player I read a short article where chamberlain is touted as a calder candidate because his defense was so good it made up for Apps' offense. I shoulda saved it for you, dreak. As for the percentages, I don't have the figures to check that now, but he very well could be close to Gracie (who, in fairness, only became a first liner due to skill set complementing). My system accounts for ww2 more appropriately than raw numbers, so I can check into that later.
I only used the seasons where he was 45% of higher:
61(1944), 59(1939), 57(1941), 51(1940), 50(1946), 46(1943), 45(1942)

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- dought has three full seasons of significant hockey that add to his atd/mld resume. No less! He was a top-30 defenseman instantly, then 2nd-best (not a Green fan), then perhaps 10th this year (norris voting implies as much but it is not really that significant I admit)
I'm finding it difficult to argue against Drew, but I'm trying to remain as unbiased as possible.

He was arguably a top-30 defenseman in his first season. The fact that he wasn't even a contender for the Calder indicates that he wasn't. He was the #1 defenseman on a team that had a terrible group of defensemen. That's not special to me.

His second season, I thought he should have won the Norris..... but I'm biased. He was defiantely a toop-5 defenseman in the world.

Last year, he sucked for the first half of the season, but was back to his top-5-in-the-world form after Christmas.

His ATD resume is essentially 140 games long (1/5 seasons, + play-offs, + IIHF). Do those 140 games outweigh other guys, who were not as good for a long time? I don't think so.

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08-06-2011, 04:27 PM
  #103
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Will post my lineup tonight. Just gonna finish off the rest of my bios.

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08-06-2011, 04:31 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Need I bring up the list of defensemen Bryan Berard was behind on his team in ES TOI, considering Doughty and Berard are serving pretty much the same function on each of our teams? If you're going to use that argument against Doughty, I can use it against Berard.
You trying to knock Berard down doesn't really make Doughty look good.

As I said a while ago, Berard will likely be a spare anyway.

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08-06-2011, 05:32 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eden Hall Warriors

GMs: vecens24 & TheDevilMadeMe

This team is set up to allow Julien to role 4 lines, with the 4th line functioning similar to Detroit's Grind Line.

Head Coach: Claude Julien
Assistant Coach: John Muckler

Nick Mickoski - Billy McGimsie - Nikolai Drozdetsky
Ulf Dahlen - Mike Ribeiro - Marian Stastny
Sami Kapanen - Steve Sullivan - Roland Pettersson
Matt Cooke - Larry Patey - Randy McKay (A)

Jack Evans - Mike O'Connell
Walt Buswell (C) - Brian Campbell
Christian Ehrhoff - Garth Butcher (A)

Johnny Mowers
Bert Lindsay


Spares = Dave Tippett, Jeff Carter, Paul Martin

PP1: Ulf Dahlen - Billy McGimsie - Nikolai Drozdetsky - Mike O'Connell - Brian Campbell
PP2: Nick Mickoski - Mike Ribeiro - Marian Stastny - Steve Sullivan - Christian Ehrhoff

PK1: Larry Patey - Sami Kapanen - Jack Evans - Garth Butcher
PK2: Steve Sullivan - Cooke/(Tippett) - Walt Buswell - Mike O'Connell
other PK options: (Carter), Mickowski, Pettersson, McGimsie
Let me say a few words on this team:

Line 1: Mickoski seems like a really good all-around player, he can score you goals, he can set up goals and he can play gritty if you want him to, solid player. Mcgimsie does appear to be the top offensive guy on your team, solid all-around player. Drozdetsky is another good scoring player. This line could be one of the best offensive 1st lines in the draft.

Line 2: Always liked Ulf Dahlen, he'll score you a lot of goals but also he'll play a good 2 way game as well, solid pick. Mike Ribiero is one of the more under-rated playmakers in the NHL today, playing on a line with a goal scorer like Dahlen could really be something nice to watch. I said last year that Marian was the worst production-wise of the 3 Stastny brothers which is not a bad thing. Marian will fit in well on this line.

Line 3: Sami Kapanen is a player that I think can play anywhere on the ice, his versatility adds a lot to this line and the team. Injuries have hurt Steve Sullivan's career but if he doesn't get hurt he's going to do a lot of good for your team. Petterson was a guy I scouted last year for the AAA draft so a solid pick there as well.

Line 4: not sure if Matt Cooke belongs here, the guy is good at what he does but don't think he belongs in the MLD yet. Larry Patey belongs here though, Patey was probably one of the best checking line centres in the whole draft. Mckay was gold for those Devils teams back when they where winning the Cups, solid pick there.

Extra Forwards:

I'd almost put Tippett on the 4th line ahead of Cooke but that's up to you. Carter gives you another goal scoring centre off the bench, 2 solid choices.

Overall thoughts on the forward group: A tremendous group, other than Matt Cooke starting, I have no qualms about this group at all.

Defense Pairing 1: Evans was one of the better defensive defenseman available, solid choice. Me and Arcand had O'connell last year in the MLD, thought he was more of a defensive guy until we drafted him and saw he was more offensive.

Defense Pairing 2: Buswell was rightly praised by you throughout the draft, a good 2 way choice, he'll serve your defense well. Brian Campbell is a good pick. He gets panned because of his salary but right now IMO he's one of the top active defenseman in the world of ATD/MLD/AAA drafts.

Defense Pairing 3: Ehroff's another good defenseman from the modern era, good to have offensive production from that pairing. Not sure Butcher belongs here, he's purely defensive but I think I'd draft someone else at that spot instead.

Extra Defenseman: Martin's another good modern guy, I'd almost suggest Martin ahead of Butcher in your starting lineup.

Thoughts on the defense group: Like me you went with an offensive and defensive guy on each pairing, aside from Butcher all those guys belong.

Goalies: Mowers, IMO, is a middle of the road #1 goalie in this while Bert Lindsay is one of the best backups, together this corps will make it work.

Coaching: Never been a fan of 2-coach teams in this but I think Julien and Muckler will make a good combo.

Special Teams: Like all your special teams units, solid choices all around.

Overall Thoughts On your team: As always with TDMM and vecens the team was well-drafted, I expect this team to go far in this. Good Luck to the both of you.

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Old
08-06-2011, 06:50 PM
  #106
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
I'd almost put Tippett on the 4th line ahead of Cooke but that's up to you.
I would definately do that.

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08-06-2011, 11:23 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You trying to knock Berard down doesn't really make Doughty look good.

As I said a while ago, Berard will likely be a spare anyway.
Okay then, here is a list of bottom pairing defensemen in the MLD that have been #1 in TOI on their team at least 3 years(among guys we actually have the stats for):

Drew Doughty(team made the playoffs 2/3 years with Drew as a #1)
Kim Johnsson(team made the playoffs 5/6 seasons with him as a #1, and his team has only ever made the playoffs when he was the #1 defenseman)
Gary Sargent(team made playoffs 2/3 years with him as a #1)
Vladimir Malakhov(I think, going on memory from the discussion during the draft)
Janne Niinimaa(team made playoffs 1/3 years with him as a #1)
Eric Brewer(team has never made the playoffs with him as a #1)

Bolded=Philadelphia's bottom pairing

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08-07-2011, 04:10 AM
  #108
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Will be up tomorrow..just too tired right now. Would like to get some of my major ones up (McLean, Ronan, Crossman)..

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Old
08-07-2011, 05:27 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Okay then, here is a list of bottom pairing defensemen in the MLD that have been #1 in TOI on their team at least 3 years(among guys we actually have the stats for):

Drew Doughty(team made the playoffs 2/3 years with Drew as a #1)
Kim Johnsson(team made the playoffs 5/6 seasons with him as a #1, and his team has only ever made the playoffs when he was the #1 defenseman)
Gary Sargent(team made playoffs 2/3 years with him as a #1)
Vladimir Malakhov(I think, going on memory from the discussion during the draft)
Janne Niinimaa(team made playoffs 1/3 years with him as a #1)
Eric Brewer(team has never made the playoffs with him as a #1)

Bolded=Philadelphia's bottom pairing
If time on ice, with no context, is your only measure of a defenseman, that's great for you, but there are a few problems with that.

First of all, leading a team in ice time is not the only way to measure a player. It's a fine accomplishment, but so is being 2nd. Being 3rd and 4th carry some weight too. That's exactly why I don't like Doughty in an All-Time sense. Regardless of how good you think his 3 seasons are, they can't outweigh a 10 year career of being a top-4 guy. The fact that Doughty's 4th best season is an absolute zero hurts him a lot. Is a guy with 1st, 1st, 1st and nothing else really better than a guy with 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th?


Second, none of the above players led good groups of defensemen in ice time. You can say they made the play-offs, but the reason they made the play-offs was not the strength of their blueline. Many of those teams made the play-offs in spite of their buelines!

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08-07-2011, 12:15 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
First of all, leading a team in ice time is not the only way to measure a player. It's a fine accomplishment, but so is being 2nd. Being 3rd and 4th carry some weight too. That's exactly why I don't like Doughty in an All-Time sense. Regardless of how good you think his 3 seasons are, they can't outweigh a 10 year career of being a top-4 guy. The fact that Doughty's 4th best season is an absolute zero hurts him a lot. Is a guy with 1st, 1st, 1st and nothing else really better than a guy with 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th?
It's up for interpretation. Show me a bottom pairing defenseman in the MLD who has a similar or better ice time distribution than the one you listed, then we'll discuss where Doughty sits.


Quote:
Second, none of the above players led good groups of defensemen in ice time. You can say they made the play-offs, but the reason they made the play-offs was not the strength of their blueline. Many of those teams made the play-offs in spite of their buelines!
Eric Desjardins, Roman Hamrlik, Eric Weinrich, Willie Mitchell, Vladimir Malakhov, Sean Hill, Keith Carney, Randy Manery?

They might not be the most impressive defensemen in the world, but those guys were all ATD/MLD picks. I'm not going to argue on behalf of the other players, that's their owning GM's job, but here is the amount of time that Doughty and Johnsson were ahead of the #2 on their team:

Doughty: 2:51, 2:22, 2:27
Johnsson: :50*, 1:11*, 1:50, 3:16, :21, 2:06

*-Over Eric Desjardins, who is universally regarded as a quality #3 in the ATD

While they're not getting more ice time than Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque, they're not supposed to be. These are MLD bottom pairing defensemen we're talking about here. They're still getting more ice time than guys that are respected ATD/MLD picks, and if you look at how much more time their coaches are getting them, it says something. If you're getting 2 more minutes than the next best guy, it's clear that the coach has much more confidence in that player than he does whoever the #2 guy is. The player can't control who he's playing ahead of, he just plays ahead of them.


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Old
08-07-2011, 12:37 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I would definately do that.
I don't understand this. I do think Cooke is better in every other facet at ES other than defensively. He's a better scorer, better forechecker, better agitator, etc. I know Cooke has a bad name in hockey and I understand why, but what makes Tippett a better fit here? By the way it's not like Cooke is bad defensively, or on the PK either. Prior to being suspended Cooke was leading the league in SH points this year.

I'm more asking for an explanation rather than a "oh I just hate Matt Cooke and don't think he belongs" argument.

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08-07-2011, 01:36 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
It's up for interpretation. Show me a bottom pairing defenseman in the MLD who has a similar or better ice time distribution than the one you listed, then we'll discuss where Doughty sits.
It shouldn't be up for interpretation. 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th is better than 1st, 1st, 1st, and nothing else.

Bryan Berard's ice time distribution looks like the one I listed.

Quote:
Eric Desjardins, Roman Hamrlik, Eric Weinrich, Willie Mitchell, Vladimir Malakhov, Sean Hill, Keith Carney, Randy Manery?

They might not be the most impressive defensemen in the world, but those guys were all ATD/MLD picks. I'm not going to argue on behalf of the other players, that's their owning GM's job, but here is the amount of time that Doughty and Johnsson were ahead of the #2 on their team:

Doughty: 2:51, 2:22, 2:27
Johnsson: :50*, 1:11*, 1:50, 3:16, :21, 2:06

*-Over Eric Desjardins, who is universally regarded as a quality #3 in the ATD

While they're not getting more ice time than Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque, they're not supposed to be. These are MLD bottom pairing defensemen we're talking about here. They're still getting more ice time than guys that are respected ATD/MLD picks, and if you look at how much more time their coaches are getting them, it says something. If you're getting 2 more minutes than the next best guy, it's clear that the coach has much more confidence in that player than he does whoever the #2 guy is. The player can't control who he's playing ahead of, he just plays ahead of them.
Again, you're igoring important context. Johnsson wasn't getting more minutes than prime Eric Desjardins - he was getting more ice time than Desjardins when he was on the downswing of his career.

It was even worse with Keith Carney, Sean Hill, and Eric Weinrich - they were approaching retirement when Johnsson played with them.

Don't see a cross-over with Hamrlik or Malakhov, and Manery retired in 1980.



The gap in ice time between #1 and #2 it does say "something". It actually says more about #2 as it does about #1. You don't need to play your #1 so much unless the rest of the guys are weak.

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08-07-2011, 01:38 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I don't understand this. I do think Cooke is better in every other facet at ES other than defensively. He's a better scorer, better forechecker, better agitator, etc. I know Cooke has a bad name in hockey and I understand why, but what makes Tippett a better fit here? By the way it's not like Cooke is bad defensively, or on the PK either. Prior to being suspended Cooke was leading the league in SH points this year.

I'm more asking for an explanation rather than a "oh I just hate Matt Cooke and don't think he belongs" argument.
You're 4th line won't be getting much ES ice time, so you're better off with a specialist. Tippett is an excellent PKer at this level, so you're better off with him in the lineup.

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08-07-2011, 03:32 PM
  #114
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When are we voting for the AST?

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08-07-2011, 03:45 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
It shouldn't be up for interpretation. 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th is better than 1st, 1st, 1st, and nothing else.

Bryan Berard's ice time distribution looks like the one I listed.
Just as you say it's all about context, those finishes you claim are better have to be taken into context as well.
Quote:
Again, you're igoring important context. Johnsson wasn't getting more minutes than prime Eric Desjardins - he was getting more ice time than Desjardins when he was on the downswing of his career.
At 31-32, Desjardins still should have been at the end of the prime of his career.

Quote:
Don't see a cross-over with Hamrlik or Malakhov, and Manery retired in 1980.
Hamrlik was behind Niinimaa or Brewer in TOI, I forget which one.

Quote:
The gap in ice time between #1 and #2 it does say "something". It actually says more about #2 as it does about #1. You don't need to play your #1 so much unless the rest of the guys are weak.
Again, it has to be taken into context. Is the #1 that much better than everyone else(which I believe is true in Doughty's case), or are the other guys that bad?

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08-07-2011, 04:13 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Just as you say it's all about context, those finishes you claim are better have to be taken into context as well.
Berard played for weak defense groups, just like Johnsson and Doughty did.

Quote:
At 31-32, Desjardins still should have been at the end of the prime of his career.
Maybe he should have been, but he wasn't. Dejsardins was injured in the first year, and wasn't very good in the second..... then he retired veyy shortly after.

Quote:
Again, it has to be taken into context. Is the #1 that much better than everyone else(which I believe is true in Doughty's case), or are the other guys that bad?
That beleif is based on how many games watched? I've watched probably 80% of Kings games singe Drew started, so I think I've got a pretty good grip on what their team looks like.

Usually, the #1 is much better than the #2.... but, it's because the #2 isn't very good. That is definately the case in LA. Jack Johnson is their #2, and he plays defense like he's got a pretty severe learning disability.

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08-07-2011, 04:47 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You're 4th line won't be getting much ES ice time, so you're better off with a specialist. Tippett is an excellent PKer at this level, so you're better off with him in the lineup.
We're planning on rolling four lines pretty consistently. Our 4th line is our best defensive line and we're going to use it like the Grind Line in Detroit, which played around 10-12 mins per game ES.

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08-07-2011, 04:59 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That beleif is based on how many games watched? I've watched probably 80% of Kings games singe Drew started, so I think I've got a pretty good grip on what their team looks like.

Usually, the #1 is much better than the #2.... but, it's because the #2 isn't very good. That is definately the case in LA. Jack Johnson is their #2, and he plays defense like he's got a pretty severe learning disability.
Jack is one of those cases where Rutherford was right. He would have been FAR better served to spend a year or two in the AHL actually learning how to play defense rather then the two he spent at Michigan where he was essentially allowed to play rover. Spending two seasons playing in a league where he just dominated in terms of pure talent and physicality did him absolutely no favors. When he went to the NHL he spent at least a couple seasons looking completely lost in his own zone. He's still mediocre in that regard but at least now has some good defensemen to help out.

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08-07-2011, 06:36 PM
  #119
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We're planning on rolling four lines pretty consistently. Our 4th line is our best defensive line and we're going to use it like the Grind Line in Detroit, which played around 10-12 mins per game ES.
I don't think you can effectively role your lines unless you spread out the talent.

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08-07-2011, 11:01 PM
  #120
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Posting soon..


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08-08-2011, 05:15 AM
  #121
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Belleville Bulls



Head Coach: Bobby Kromm
Assistant Coach: Brian Kilrea

Jimmy Gardner (C) - Skene Ronan - Dave Christian
Dutch Hiller - Vyacheslav Anisin - Bud Poile
Jörgen Pettersson - Billy Barlow - Mac Colville
Rob Zamuner - Stu Barnes - George Ferguson
Loui Eriksson - Erik Cole

Doug Crossman - Arthur Moore
Uwe Krupp - Bob Plager (A)
Jack Ruttan - Frank Eddolls (A)
Keith Carney

Kirk McLean
Ilya Bryzgalov

Special Teams Units
PP1: Jimmy Gardner-Billy Barlow-Skene Ronan-Doug Crossman-Arthur Moore
PP2: Jorgen Pettersson-Vyacheslav Anisin-Bud Poile-Uwe Krupp-Dutch Hiller
PK1: Dutch Hiller-Rob Zamuner-Bob Plager-Arthur Moore
PK2: Mac Colville-Stu Barnes-Frank Eddolls-Uwe Krupp

Team Strategies
* First Line - This line has a nice mixture of a glue guy with offensive ability, a scoring force and one of the fastest players ever to hit the ice. Ronan is the guy to watch as he has led the NHA in scoring before and with a good corner man in Gardner who can get the puck to him, and speed on the other wing, Skene may just light some defenses up.

* Second Line - I almost wanted to call this my first line..mainly because I think it may be my best. Dutch Hiller had some offensive capabilities but he was a defense first, corner guy with insane speed..in the middle we have the center of the famous Soviet "kid line"..Vyacheslav Anisin who is known for his brilliant passing and great skating ability, and finally..Bud Poile has a deadly shot and some good finishes including being recognized as a second team all-star.

* Third Line - Think of this as another line that can provide offense but also play great defense. Pettersson was a two-way winger capable of playing in all situations. He was fast, a great puck-handler, responsible defensively and had three 35+ goal seasons. On the other side, I have Mac Colville. Mac will be the "glue guy" to this line as he was a tireless worker who was excellent at creating turnovers and battling in the corners. Finally, in between them was the guy I had as my second line center, but moved down to the third line to add some more speed to this line. Billy Barlow was as good a skater as you could ever be, was 4th on the all-time goals list at the end of the 1899 season (ahead of Routh and Drinkwater) and was a hero in multiple playoff runs.

* Fourth Line - I'm sure you guys are wondering what I wanted to accomplish with this line. Think a defense-only line who could be physical as well. Rob Zamuner was one of the NHL's best defensive forwards over at least a five year span. He worked his tail off and while he was shafted in the Selke voting due to his lack of offense, anyone who saw him play realized how good he was in his own end. Stu Barnes is a personal favourite of mine. Great leader, gritty and a dependable two-way forward. If I could have another assistant captain it would be Stu, but alas he will continue to lead by example for my squad. Finally, George Ferguson made one of the biggest jumps in the draft, and deservingly so. He has excellent defensive play, was very physical, had longevity, playoff experience and great speed. He even put up some respectable offensive numbers over the years.

* First Pairing - Doug Crossman was an excellent puck-mover and a dependable player and leader. He had tremendous offensive instincts and could pass the puck as good as anyone from the back-end. On the other side, I made sure I paired him up with someone who would allow Crossman to play his free-flowing offensive style. Therefore, I have Arthur Moore alongside him. Moore was a tremendous skater, that was a punisher and a very good stay-at-home defender.

* Second Pairing - I love this pairing. Uwe Krupp is a personal favourite of mine as well, and I believe I have had him in the MLD on three occasions now. He was known for his defense and could move the puck..liked to be physical and even had a stanley cup clinching goal. Sounds like a nice all-around player for my second pairing no? With him is a guy I wanted from the beginning of the draft. Bob Plager, the brother of Barclay, was an excellent shutdown defenseman who was as physical as they come. He was dirty, punishing and hard to get by.

* Third Pairing - The ultimate mystery..Jack Ruttan. I understand there is little on him, but in my opinion, he deserves a spot in the MLD if he is in the HOF..to not have him just seems wrong. He clearly did something right other then leading by example, in order to be elected. However, he may not be permanent in my lineup if I need to go with someone who has a more proven track record in Keith Carney. Alongside Ruttan is Frank Eddolls. Like Plager, Frank was another guy I wanted from the beginning of the draft. A terrific leader, who frustrated the hell out of Maurice Richard as he was excellent in shutting him down.

* Goalkeeping Tandem - Bryzgalov is my back-up to relieve the pressure off of McLean once in a while. He has had some excellent finishes and good playoff success. However, my main man is Kirk McLean. He is one of the best goalies in this draft for a number of reasons. First off, two times he was in the top-3 in Vezina voting. Both times he lost to Patrick Roy..pretty damn strong results considering the winner. He also has had some other good years with a poor Canucks squad, earning him a lot of respect across the league. He was great inside the locker-room and was a calming presence. His greatest asset? He was clutch as hell. His playoff numbers are absurd considering the era he played in. He is a work-horse goalie, which is good as it means I can use him often..with a better team in front of him.

* Coaching - Brian Kilrea is my assistant coach..and I'm sure you all know him. The all-time winningest coach in CHL history with over 1200 wins..his team only finished under .500 five times in over thirty seasons. In Junior Hockey, that is simply incredible. Add on to the resume being named coach of the year five times, winning two memorial cups and three OHL championships..and you simply have one of the best assistant coaches in the draft. Our head coach was another excellent coach who won on basically every level imaginable. He was the coach of the year in the CHL, WHA and NHL..making the finals in 8 out of 10 seasons as a coach in the WHA and CHL..before moving to the NHL and taking a horrendous Wings team to the second round. He was known for his defensive style of play while always wanting hard workers and great skaters..you couldn't ask for a better fit..that is our team in a nutshell.

Eras of Each Player
1916 or earlier – Jimmy Gardner, Skene Ronan, Billy Barlow, Arthur Moore, Jack Ruttan
1917-1942 – Bud Poile, Dutch Hiller, Mac Colville
1943-1965 – Bob Plager, Frank Eddolls
1966-1979 – Jorgen Pettersson, Vyacheslav Anisin, George Ferguson
1980-1994 – Dave Christian, Rob Zamuner, Stu Barnes, Doug Crossman, Uwe Krupp, Kirk McLean, Keith Carney
1995-2004 - Erik Cole, Ilya Bryzgalov
in 2011 - Loui Eriksson



** Credit to VanIslander, TDMM, Seventieslord and any other GM who helped contribute to the bio's for each player.


Last edited by chaosrevolver: 08-08-2011 at 05:51 AM.
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Old
08-08-2011, 11:02 AM
  #122
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I only used the seasons where he was 45% of higher:
61(1944), 59(1939), 57(1941), 51(1940), 50(1946), 46(1943), 45(1942)
I have basically the same thing except that 1944 is more "logical":

59, 57, 51, 50, 47, 46, 44

Gracie has this:

80, 63, 62, 50, 45, 42, 39

Chamberlain has better longevity and starts to overtake Gracie when 4th-7th-best seasons are considered but Gracie has the three most impressive seasons of the pair.

It would also be worth looking into their linemates and who outscored who. Just looking at the seasons where Gracie played the full season with one team, 1932 was a wash (it was 23-21-21 with him being one of the 21s but he had the most goals by far), and he was the runaway leader for his line in 1933 and 1937. In 1936 and 1938 he led by close margins. 1934 and 1935 were years in which he was traded so it's tough to say how he did compared to his line, but he has five solid seasons as his line's catalyst or even-producing member.

I have no idea who Chamberlain's linemates were, though, so you'd have to fill me in.

Chamberlain is an excellent MLD defensive forward, though. Gracie's just a "two-way" guy.

Quote:
I'm finding it difficult to argue against Drew, but I'm trying to remain as unbiased as possible.
I realize you're really high on him and that your objection is only against him as an all-time player.

Quote:
He was arguably a top-30 defenseman in his first season. The fact that he wasn't even a contender for the Calder indicates that he wasn't. He was the #1 defenseman on a team that had a terrible group of defensemen. That's not special to me.
Depends what "special" means.

You are right that being a #1 doesn't necessarily mean anything special. It is very possible that someone can be on such a crappy team that even though they would be a #4 on a good team, they play #1 minutes on the bad team by virtue of being the most reliable player of a bunch of nancies. Since you admit that Doughty was "arguably" top-30 in his rookie year, I don't think you truly believe that was the situation in LA.

Also, if being #1 on your team and "maybe, maybe not" a top-30 defenseman isn't special and doesn't add to a resume, then what does that say of Berard? I know Berard got four points-based norris/AS votes in 1997 but he was really only his team's 3rd-best defenseman, and they were just as bad as the 2009 Kings. And in 1999, no one would dare call him a top-30 defenseman, either, despite his icetime with the Leafs. Those are the only two seasons that anyone could possibly argue were as good as Doughty's 3rd-best, and I don't even believe that they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Is a guy with 1st, 1st, 1st and nothing else really better than a guy with 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th?
That is a bit of a smokescreen though. (Also, Berard is 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7)

Your statement might hold true with Norris trophy finishes or scoring race placements. But with all things being equal, there's a big gap from 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd, and so on. There are 30 #1 defensemen in the NHL, then 30 #2 guys, and so on. So being a #1 guy implies you're top-30 but #2 is a whole tier down, not just the minute difference that exists between the numbers one and two.

the comparisons of their best seasons looks like this:

top-2 defenseman on earth, #1 on a 6th-place team, top pairing on gold medal winner, vs. #1 on a run and gun Toronto team with a weak defense

second-best looks like this:

top-10 defenseman on earth, #1 on a 5th-place team, vs. #3 on a non-playoff team, Calder, got a few undeserved AS/norris votes

third-best looks like this:

#1 defenseman (overall and ES) for a non-playoff team, vs. #2 overall, #4 ES on a non-playoff team.

Doughty holds an incredibly massive peak edge looking at their top-3 seasons. Even though Doughty doesn't yet have a 4th-best season, Berard's 4th-best can be described as:

"2nd in overall icetime, 4th at ES, for a terrible team. On pace for 7th in points among d-men but played just 44 games. Led the NHL in ESGA/minute."

and that adds to a resume only very marginally. Again, you want to credit the guy just for showing up for work for five more years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
When are we voting for the AST?
Wednesday will be voting day for everything - all-star teams and standings.


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-08-2011 at 11:15 AM.
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Old
08-08-2011, 01:12 PM
  #123
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Just as a sort of reference I'm gone this weekend (Thursday to Monday) so if we're in the playoffs then my team won't have a discussion. I don't want to hold anything up here but just adivising I won't be around.

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08-08-2011, 05:09 PM
  #124
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If someone can do up a list of assassinations received and given... I will assassinate their team first. Then I will use it as a guide for who to review going forward, and I hope others will as well.

quick self-review:

This is as typical of a seventies team as it gets. I took a while to fill out my forwards (top-6 and bottom-6) but when I finally did, I made good choices based on what was left. I made defense a high priority, mainly because I had noticed newly posted information on some players before anyone else but TDMM did, and I also made a point of getting a coach and goalie early - I never like to be below average in that regard. In this case I took Cook first among coaches, so it should not surprise you that he's my favourite MLD coach. I took Nicholson 2nd among goalies, and he and Paton are a toss-up to me for best MLD goalie.

First line is led by Golonka, the Czech Doug Gilmour, the spirit of the team. He's mainly a goalscorer in my estimation, so he has two gritty wings (gritty is actually a really mild word for Gingras) who have playmaking credentials. This line will be very tough to play against and its offensive potential should at least be average by the standards in this draft.

Second line is the complete opposite. Stumpel is a very pure playmaker and also needs stronger wingers to help him along. I do not know what Richardson will provide in that regard, but Warwick was a tough little tank that will take some pressure off Stumpel and win some battles. Stumpel should hopefully get some room to work his magic as a playmaker, with these two firing pucks and shoveling in rebounds.

Third line is, like a usual seventies team, a defensive line. Erixon is the top defensive forward in the draft. Harris is a good one, plus he has strong offensive credentials. Harris has the strongest offensive credentials of the three, but he's also the least accomplished defensively. loh calls him a "two-way" player and his status as utility forward meant he was constantly being shifted from line to line - he only ever had one regular line and it lasted two seasons - so that did include some defensive work too, for a team that had great defensive results. he did not appear to do the heavy lifting, though. I think I've managed to put together a line that will be both above average offensively and defensively (remember, Erixon only has hands of stone when asked to shoot, he's actually a good passer and stickhandler)

Fourth line is, like usual, an energy line. Based on draft standards I think I may have created my best forechecking line ever. This line will make life hell on opposing defensemen and leave a few of them embedded in the boards. I did my best to put together a line with some offensive ability too, though. Keeping in mind that this is an ES line and not a PP unit, I think I've done well. The three averaged 36, 31, and 30 adjusted ESP per 80 games. Tucker will also pitch in on the PP on the right side, where he's had some success. Both he and Boutette play all three forward positions, so they can fill in on the 3rd in case of an injury (to Erixon, perhaps?)

I took Gordie Roberts first, but when all is said and done, I wonder if he's even my best, or second-best defenseman. He was by no means a "perfect" defensive player, he had some issues in that regard early in his career before becoming the consumate wily veteran. He had one good season where he was 8th in Norris voting, one of six times he was top-2 in TOI on his squad. Compare that to Gibbs, whose all-star record is arguably more impressive and whose TOI certainly is (9X #1). Or to Armstrong, who was 7th, 8th, 9th in Norris voting (5th in AS voting). Or Portland (5th, 7th, 8th). Or Kampman (5th, 7th, 9th). Sargent suffers from a short career but he was a beast in his prime - top-7 in TOI in the league three times, backed up by one year of token norris/AS consideration. (Roberts peaked at 15th in TOI). They all have a case for being better players, and three of them have particularly strong cases.

With Kampman and Sargent having such short careers, it's safe to say they will both miss their share of games. Eric Weinrich is there for that reason. In extreme situations, Tobin and Mayasich have the capability to step in on the 3rd pairing but that shouldn't need to be a regular occurrence.

This was a very well-played draft by a lot of GMs and I had to be really wily to keep up this time. It seemed that as soon as there was a guy who floated to the top of my list, someone took him. This was particularly true of centers, and I waited awfully long to take mine. As a result, there are some guys who turned out to be great and others who didn't impress me:

Jozef Golonka: I am really, really glad he fell to me. I got a good bargain on this guy. His domestic and international resumes are more than good enough and he was a very singificant player, worldwide, in his time. He's the Czechoslovakian Doug Gilmour.

Jozef Stumpel: Call him a bargain basement 2nd liner and color me unimpressed. Two very good seasons for this level, and on pace for two more very good ones. Other than that, a small handful of "decent" seasons. Meh. Not great in the playoffs, and softish, even though he's big. Smooth playmaker though. His overall offensive production is in the same league as others I looked at like Bullard, Zhamnov, Reichel, etc. Comparing him to Zhamnov, for example, is easy - take off Zhamnov's big 1995 season, 2 years of captaincy, and PKing ability and you have Stumpel. He's a lower-tier guy and I'd rather have the other guys who went earlier in most cases, but he shouldn't hurt me either, as he's not a large dropoff from them. There is no doubt that he underwhelmed me once I researched.

Billy "Hinky" Harris: I don't know what to make of the guy. he was sold to me in the past as a defensive guy, and that's not really his game. He has awesome ES stats for this level, which is a plus. If you believe the press about him at the time, his numbers as a benchwarmer are really interesting because he was playing very few "full" games and random shifts throughout the rest of the season. On the other hand, Punch Imlach felt he was only able to maintain his high level of play for short bursts. This may or may not be true, but it does cast some doubt. Expect Charlie Tobin and John Mayasich to spend a lot of time filling in for Harris this year. If you read Harris' bio, you will agree that the best way for me to get the most out of him on a per-game basis is to rest him from time to time. Harris puzzled me. Better than his stats, because they're loaded with GP that he barely played? Or because he never had regular linemates? Or worse than his stats because Punch Imlach just saw him as a benchwarmer/pinch hitter? You tell me.

Tony Gingras: I thought I was just "settling" for Gingras because other guys I thought I wanted got taken. I soon found that I was much better off with Gingras. He was tough and fiery, he was a clutch scorer and he was a good playmaker. It was suggested that he was as valuable as Bain, though I don't know how much truth there is to that.

Bob Gracie: I took Gracie because he was standing out at the top of the chart for pre-expansion centers and no one was standing out among about 8 post-expansion centers. I eventually moved him to the wing and hoped he'd be a good defensive/gritty conscience to whichever one-dimensional center I ended up getting. While he had some grit and two-way ability, it definitely wasn't as apparent as I had hoped. His epic speed was a big bonus, but yeah, I had a little buyer's remorse here.

Jan Erixon: Still can't get over the exemplary superlatives used to describe his defensive ability in the scouting reports. I thought I was getting the best defensive forward in the draft based on selke voting; now I know I did, based on eyewitness accounts.

I like the team a lot though; it has as good a chance to win this thing as anyone. It's not perfect, and I see no perfect teams in this draft. Look forward to some one on one comparisons. If I can get far, it will be mostly thanks to my defense corps. It's easily got the best collective all-star record in the draft, and I think only TDMM/vecens would be close in that regard. If my forwards can just perform at an average level or slightly above, I could be ok.

Here's my updated roster if anyone is going to review:


PP1: Warwick-Golonka-Gingras-Sargent-Roberts
PP2: Gracie-Stumpel-Tucker-Sargent-Gibbs
PK1: Erixon-Grier-Armstrong-Gibbs
PK2: Boutette-Harris (70s)-Portland-Roberts
PK3: Harris (60s)-Tucker-Armstrong-Kampman

1916 or earlier: Richardson, Gingras, Nicholson, Tobin
1917-1942: Warwick, Gracie, Portland, Kampman, Cook, Robertson
1943-1965: Golonka, Harris, Armstrong, Mayasich
1966-1979: Roberts, Gibbs, Sargent, Harris, Boutette
1980-1994: Stumpel, Erixon, Weinrich, Todd
1995-2004: Tucker, Grier
in 2011: Grier

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Old
08-08-2011, 05:21 PM
  #125
tony d
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I assasinated Dave's team, velocripator and dwight's team and TDMM and vecen's team. Would like it very much if you assasinated my team.

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