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Pollak: Sharks sign D Colin White to one year deal, $1m

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08-07-2011, 03:48 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post


That's as recent as you can get.
That was a memory I wished I hadn't watched again.

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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
It's just as ridiculous as the other extreme. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, as always.
Take Murray's positioning to arbitration!

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Originally Posted by WedgeAntilles View Post
ummm.. are we watching the same clip? He was on the complete other side of the ice and his partner lost coverage.

I feel I have to ask, do you understand what getting walked around even means? Because your clip was nothing close to that...
To be fair, with where Boyle was, Murray shouldn't have been as far over as he was. From what I gather, when you are paired with a rover, you need to be aware of him as well as the other team at all times.

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08-07-2011, 04:01 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Splitbtw View Post
That was a memory I wished I hadn't watched again.



Take Murray's positioning to arbitration!



To be fair, with where Boyle was, Murray shouldn't have been as far over as he was. From what I gather, when you are paired with a rover, you need to be aware of him as well as the other team at all times.
And yes, I get the forward coverage was poor, but Murray and Boyle were both on the right side and could have touched sticks (just watched it painfully a few more times).

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08-07-2011, 04:02 PM
  #353
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To be fair, with where Boyle was, Murray shouldn't have been as far over as he was. From what I gather, when you are paired with a rover, you need to be aware of him as well as the other team at all times.

Yeah but that's not really an example of him getting "walked around", he was just out of position.

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08-07-2011, 04:06 PM
  #354
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That mistake was on Murray.
Of course it wasn't.

But even if it was, it was not getting walked around. Again I have to ask, do you or the OP even know what getting walked around even means?

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08-07-2011, 04:07 PM
  #355
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Yeah but that's not really an example of him getting "walked around", he was just out of position.
This.

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08-07-2011, 04:13 PM
  #356
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Yeah but that's not really an example of him getting "walked around", he was just out of position.
I completely agree. Word choice was poor.

Murray and Vlasic are clearly the two best defensive-defensman the Sharks have; one by force, and the other by finesse.

Neither should go, neither need to go (at this time), and the Sharks are still where they were a day ago, except another option to try for the third line.

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08-07-2011, 04:16 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by WedgeAntilles View Post
Of course it wasn't.

But even if it was, it was not getting walked around. Again I have to ask, do you or the OP even know what getting walked around even means?
Haha, I knew you were going with the semantics argument again. I didn't use that clip as an example of getting walked around, I used it as an example of him being out of position. Your point was he's near perfect in positioning and he's maybe the best in the conference.

There is another clip of him getting clearly walked around, I'll post it when I find it
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He was on the complete other side of the ice and his partner lost coverage.
Why was he on the other side of the ice? Is Murray not LD? If you think Murray gets none of the blame here, so help me. Then again, this is the same person who thinks Murray's positioning is better than Lidstrom or Suter's.


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08-07-2011, 04:38 PM
  #358
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Haha, I knew you were going with the semantics argument again. I didn't use that clip as an example of getting walked around, I used it as an example of him being out of position. Your point was he's near perfect in positioning and he's maybe the best in the conference.

There is another clip of him getting clearly walked around, I'll post it when I find it


Why was he on the other side of the ice? Is Murray not LD? If you think Murray gets none of the blame here, so help me. Then again, this is the same person who thinks Murray's positioning is better than Lidstrom or Suter's.
This. It's not compraring the two because they have different skill sets. The eye test (with lack of youtube videos), has Vlasic less prone to out of position blunders.

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08-07-2011, 05:46 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by WedgeAntilles View Post
Of course it wasn't.

But even if it was, it was not getting walked around. Again I have to ask, do you or the OP even know what getting walked around even means?
I never said that he was getting walked around. I said, I believe clearly, that it was Murray's mistake. He plays left defense with Boyle, and has for a long time. Yes, Boyle was doing his aggressive thing there, but at times like that, it falls to the other defenseman to cover the center of the ice.

And no reason to get snarky. We all speak English here, and we know what getting walked around means.

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08-07-2011, 06:29 PM
  #360
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So this thread turned into White vs Murray huh?

That's an easy one guys, come on now.... White is the better skillset d-man, however Murray brings a much more intense physical game. Fear vs Respect, pick your posion.

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08-07-2011, 06:33 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Sniper Archetype View Post
I never said that he was getting walked around. I said, I believe clearly, that it was Murray's mistake. He plays left defense with Boyle, and has for a long time. Yes, Boyle was doing his aggressive thing there, but at times like that, it falls to the other defenseman to cover the center of the ice.

And no reason to get snarky. We all speak English here, and we know what getting walked around means.
This. No one is saying that the blame goes solely on Murray, but to say he gets none of the blame and it's not his fault is again, Murray bias at it's best. Murray plays a very good positional game, but he isn't near perfect nor close to being the best in the conference, his slow foot speed prevents him from being that defenseman. Unlike Keith or Suter, Murray has to ease up on the blue-line to prevent them speeding past him, or to prevent the chip and chase from working effectively. This sometimes backfires on him because it allows the forward to walk it in at times for a good shot on net (Datsyuk's goal and Visnovsky's injury come to mind). Again, that doesn't mean Murray isn't good positionally. He is still good but his speed prevents him from being great.

And this whole thing started because Wedge thought we were showing "little respect" when we clearly weren't. Colin White is simply better positionally.

And for the record, I'm still looking for the clip. I want to say it was either Nashville or St. Louis, and similar to the Bieksa clip, the blame still isn't solely on Murray (but it is partly his fault). The guy skates around him and does a cross-crease pass, which Boyle doesn't stop.

EDIT: Seems like I can't find said clip, and I'm too lazy to look through every highlight video of every game to find it. My previous clip still stands as proof of how Murray isn't near perfect in positioning. As a person who just watched the entire LA series last week, Murray was out of position a number of times, as were other defenseman like Vlasic (though not as much).
Everyone here knows Wedge's stand on Murray and Vlasic. I don't look at the game through Murray love goggles nor Vlasic hatred goggles, so I'd like to think I see their pros and cons through a somewhat neutral lens. He's a very good positional defenseman, but as I said before, he's not near close to being the best. He's not even the best on the team, so how could he be anywhere near best in the conference? While most of the time he's solid, his lack of speed does cause problems occasionally.

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That's an easy one guys, come on now.... White is the better skillset d-man, however Murray brings a much more intense physical game. Fear vs Respect, pick your posion.
Which pretty much sums up my first post on White.


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08-07-2011, 07:04 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
This. No one is saying that the blame goes solely on Murray, but to say he gets none of the blame and it's not his fault is again, Murray bias at it's best. Murray plays a very good positional game, but he isn't near perfect nor close to being the best in the conference, his slow foot speed prevents him from being that defenseman. Unlike Keith or Suter, Murray has to ease up on the blue-line to prevent them speeding past him, or to prevent the chip and chase from working effectively. This sometimes backfires on him because it allows the forward to walk it in at times for a good shot on net (Datsyuk's goal and Visnovsky's injury come to mind). Again, that doesn't mean Murray isn't good positionally. He is still good but his speed prevents him from being great.

And this whole thing started because Wedge thought we were showing "little respect" when we clearly weren't. Colin White is simply better positionally.

And for the record, I'm still looking for the clip. I want to say it was either Nashville or St. Louis, and similar to the Bieksa clip, the blame still isn't solely on Murray (but it is partly his fault). The guy skates around him and does a cross-crease pass, which Boyle doesn't stop.



Which pretty much sums up my first post on White.
Which is pretty much fact.

White is a better defender than Murray, however if you asked me which player I value more, I would say Murray because of is physical game and his history in the organization.

With that being said, is it possible that White is the better player but Murray is the better asset? That seems about right in my head....

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08-07-2011, 07:08 PM
  #363
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With that being said, is it possible that White is the better player but Murray is the better asset? That seems about right in my head....
Yep. I would say the difference in positional play isn't as big as the difference in their physicality. Plus Murray is younger, is under contract for another 2 years, and is more durable.

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08-07-2011, 07:53 PM
  #364
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Yep. I would say the difference in positional play isn't as big as the difference in their physicality. Plus Murray is younger, is under contract for another 2 years, and is more durable.
That pretty much sums it all up. I just can't see Doug Murray playing on the bottom pairing. I think White and Demers will be a blessing in that role.

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08-07-2011, 08:26 PM
  #365
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Murray is a great positional player with Boyle, because it is much easier to be great positionally when you only have to really focus on one side of the ice.

Murray's role is simple and he takes to that very well. If more was required of him offensively, as more is required of Vlasic offensively, you would see him getting burned much more often. His footspeed would definitely be exploited.

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08-07-2011, 11:51 PM
  #366
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We won't really know who deserves the top spot next to boyle till they start practicing, we all know murray works well with boyle, they've been together for a few seasons now and know each other's tendencies.

But at times I do think murray has looked like he has been overworked, but the same can be said for boyle. (burns and vlasic should get more mins to take time from the top)

The one good thing about possibly having murray on a bottom pair, is he has more time to truly focus on his original role on the team- to simply bang his body around. He doesn't have the big minutes wearing him down, and doesn't have to worry about getting burned.

Maybe we even switch it back toward the playoffs to have a fresh murray ready to smash guys. Because it seems like that physical factor is so much more important in the playoffs.

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08-08-2011, 06:50 AM
  #367
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This. It's not compraring the two because they have different skill sets. The eye test (with lack of youtube videos), has Vlasic less prone to out of position blunders.
Sure, as long a you don't count the entire first half of last season, or most of the season before.

It never ceases to amaze me the free pass given to Vlasic by fans and some of the media. He was quite possibly the worst top 4 dman in the division last season for 3 months, but all he has to do is come on to the ice, skate across it without falling down anbd all is forgiven and forgotten.

"No Mr Vlasic sir, we'll never mention those 40 games where you appeared to be playing for the other team. No sir, never happened."

If Murray had had that stretch of games, people would be calling for his head...

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08-08-2011, 06:56 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by WedgeAntilles View Post
Sure, as long a you don't count the entire first half of last season, or most of the season before.

It never ceases to amaze me the free pass given to Vlasic by fans and some of the media. He was quite possibly the worst top 4 dman in the division last season for 3 months, but all he has to do is come on to the ice, skate across it without falling down anbd all is forgiven and forgotten.

"No Mr Vlasic sir, we'll never mention those 40 games where you appeared to be playing for the other team. No sir, never happened."

If Murray had had that stretch of games, people would be calling for his head...
No one is giving him a free pass (we all acknowledged that he sucked), most of us are just giving him a little leeway for some of his blunders. He played with Niclas Wallin for 18% of the season and he played with Kent Huskins for 15% of the season. And not only did he have multiple partners, but because he was paired with Wallin and Huskins, he was forced to be more offensive. Like SR said, Murray doesn't have to do that. He has a simple role of being a rock for Dan Boyle, and he does it well. He was paired with Boyle for 80% of the season. If he had to suddenly add more offensive talent to his game like Vlasic, he'd probably make a lot of mistakes too.

When Murray wasn't paired with Boyle, he was paired with either Demers or Braun, so he never really had to change into a more offensive role.

Just for the record, I'm not completely excusing Vlasic's horrible offense. He better be working on his outlet passing this off-season.

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08-08-2011, 07:11 AM
  #369
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Haha, I knew you were going with the semantics argument again. I didn't use that clip as an example of getting walked around, I used it as an example of him being out of position. Your point was he's near perfect in positioning and he's maybe the best in the conference.

There is another clip of him getting clearly walked around, I'll post it when I find it


Why was he on the other side of the ice? Is Murray not LD? If you think Murray gets none of the blame here, so help me. Then again, this is the same person who thinks Murray's positioning is better than Lidstrom or Suter's.
Here's the problem. This had nothing to do with positioning. It was about decision making.

Was it a poor decision? Maybe, but in that scenario Boyle's blunder was the catalyst. Murray chose a high risk/high reward solution and it failed. My point is that that goal probably gets scored regardless of Murray's actions...

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08-08-2011, 07:17 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by WedgeAntilles View Post
Sure, as long a you don't count the entire first half of last season, or most of the season before.

It never ceases to amaze me the free pass given to Vlasic by fans and some of the media. He was quite possibly the worst top 4 dman in the division last season for 3 months, but all he has to do is come on to the ice, skate across it without falling down anbd all is forgiven and forgotten.

"No Mr Vlasic sir, we'll never mention those 40 games where you appeared to be playing for the other team. No sir, never happened."

If Murray had had that stretch of games, people would be calling for his head...
Murray is the most beloved defenseman by a LARGE margin on this board and Vlasic was KILLED all last year as being the weak link.

.....you joined in April of '11, so you weren't here the first 40 games of the year. Perhaps that's why you are incorrect.

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08-08-2011, 07:57 AM
  #371
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No one is giving him a free pass (we all acknowledged that he sucked), most of us are just giving him a little leeway for some of his blunders. He played with Niclas Wallin for 18% of the season and he played with Kent Huskins for 15% of the season. And not only did he have multiple partners, but because he was paired with Wallin and Huskins, he was forced to be more offensive. Like SR said, Murray doesn't have to do that. He has a simple role of being a rock for Dan Boyle, and he does it well. He was paired with Boyle for 80% of the season. If he had to suddenly add more offensive talent to his game like Vlasic, he'd probably make a lot of mistakes too.

When Murray wasn't paired with Boyle, he was paired with either Demers or Braun, so he never really had to change into a more offensive role.

Just for the record, I'm not completely excusing Vlasic's horrible offense. He better be working on his outlet passing this off-season.
I'm not accusing you of excusing his horrible offense. I'm accusing you of excusing his horrible defensive lapses.

Seriously, go back and watch some of those games from 09-10 and the first half of last year. In 09-10 he was with a Blake (a fading Blake, but still Blake). He was a VERY mediocre defensive defenseman, prone to brainfarts and boneheaded moves.

When he's good, he's very good. And when he's bad, he's awful. Inconsistency is not something a top 2 Dman should ever be accused of. Even in a top 4 guy it's a liability.

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08-08-2011, 07:59 AM
  #372
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Murray is the most beloved defenseman by a LARGE margin on this board and Vlasic was KILLED all last year as being the weak link.

.....you joined in April of '11, so you weren't here the first 40 games of the year. Perhaps that's why you are incorrect.
Oh, I have no doubt in my mind he was killed at the time. Of course he was. He was so bad how could he not be?

But then he manages to skate across the ice without falling down and all is forgiven and he's the best defensive Dman on the Sharks again, as if those games never happened.

It's ridiculous...

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08-08-2011, 11:27 AM
  #373
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Oh, I have no doubt in my mind he was killed at the time. Of course he was. He was so bad how could he not be?

But then he manages to skate across the ice without falling down and all is forgiven and he's the best defensive Dman on the Sharks again, as if those games never happened.

It's ridiculous...
He is the best finesse Dman on the Sharks, though that is not saying much as they aren't a finesse bunch of Dmen. Frankly, I like having the Douglas Murray way and the Pickles way.

Unfortunately, top 4 Dmen in the NHL need to be puck movers and TWD, which Vlasic is not. He doesn't move the puck well, and he doesn't shoot it well at all. Therefore, overall I believe he is in a skill set on the level of a mid to lower number 4 Dman. Timewise, he can actually play top pairing minutes - but what does it get you?

On this team I think he is a luxury worth having. I do NOT think that he was the worst Dman in the division, and I don't think he is as bad as you make him sound though. You really have a vendetta against him it seems. He's not Huskins or Wallin bad - and he's performing just under his contract - which isn't terrible all things considered.

Right now I'd rank Burns, Murray, Boyle, and Demers ahead of him.

In terms of replaceability, we seem to have a glut of defensive Dmen and/or possible TWD coming up. That IMO makes Vlasic, Murray, Vandermeer, and White (although the last two aren't really long term options of course) expendable.

Because of Murray's top end talent in physical play, positional skillset, and cap hit, I'd take him over Vlasic.

For this year though, I'd roll with Vlasic and enjoy the defensive depth.

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08-08-2011, 12:04 PM
  #374
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That's as recent as you can get.
Geeesh, that was very Wallin like of him to be so far on the right. There are countless times when Wallin was playing the wrong side. I could almost call it out before it even happened.

Anyone remember if he was trying to get a line change in at that time?

(and imo, this isn't a very good indicator of Murray's normal play. One clip doesn't make me feel his positioning is bad. I'm sure you could uncover many of Lindstrom not being in the right place).

Edit: watched it a few more times - nope, no line change. Just bad anticipation.

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08-08-2011, 12:22 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by WedgeAntilles View Post
Oh, I have no doubt in my mind he was killed at the time. Of course he was. He was so bad how could he not be?

But then he manages to skate across the ice without falling down and all is forgiven and he's the best defensive Dman on the Sharks again, as if those games never happened.

It's ridiculous...
Well, the problem here is that you don't think he does anything at all to justify the statement. Everything you've said thus far leads one to believe that Vlasic just doesn't do anything right defensively when that isn't the case. Until you're willing to be receptive on the fact that there are things that Vlasic is equal to and/or better than Murray, you will always feel it's ridiculous.

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