Sorry but centers or not, we have 13 F and 7 D available for routine duty this year. We aren't in a position to be dealing roster Dmen.
So we have an extra forward and an extra defenseman? Right. Leopold is expendable. Had we added Regehr OR Ehrhoff, I'd buy into this logic. A top 4 of Myers/Regehr/Ehrhoff/Sekera is fine.
I don't know if I'd do the deal proposed. Probably not. But I'm not afraid of dealing Leopold, especially if he doesn't bring something we don't have, or something irreplaceable. We have (blatantly) a bigger hole at center than at D. I'm not in a rush to trade a defenseman, but if we are going to, he makes the most sense by far.
Extra dmen? Having 5 top 4 dmen is not a "problem" that needs to be fixed.
The problem is posters are merging issues.
1. Center depth, which we actually have with Roy, Leino, Hecht, Adam, Goose and McCormick.
With
2. Do we have the top 6 centers needed to win? Roy and Leino will answer that question this season.
Adding more bottom 6 centers like Jeffery does absolutely nothing to change #2.
Posters get hung up on center depth in the generic as if it's a virtue unto itself.
How deep was Vancouver at center? Not very. but the quality was top notch and that's why they won. I'm fine with our depth but have concerns with our top 6. Leino is the wildcard that needs to play out.
I have a foreboding feeling that Leopold is going to be one of the guys who disappoints this year, so I wouldn't mind selling him to get a player I believe in like Jeffrey (plus), and to bank more cap space for the deadline. Every year there are a few players who don't meet expectations, and a few who exceed them. I worry that Leopold will be in the former group. Just look at his splits last season and you'll see his first two months really drove his production:
Pre-December 1: 7 G, 9 A, 16 pts, +5 in 25 games
Post-December 1: 6 G, 13 A, 19 pts, -16 in 46 games
Leo had 5 G, 6 A, 11 pts on the PP last year, too, and one has to wonder how much PP time there will be for him.
I have the same feeling - partly because Leopold is coming off a career year so anything less than a repeat, or better, will be a letdown. Add in the fact that he'll see less of the great offensive opportunities/situations just by Ehrhoff now being in the picture and likely to be Ruff's 1st option over Leopold.
I have the same feeling - partly because Leopold is coming off a career year so anything less than a repeat, or better, will be a letdown. Add in the fact that he'll see less of the great offensive opportunities/situations just by Ehrhoff now being in the picture and likely to be Ruff's 1st option over Leopold.
Agreed. We have 3 D-men who scored 10 goals last year, and I'd be utterly shocked if all three hit it again this year. And of those three, Leopold is the most likely to come off those numbers.
But as long as he is moderately productive AND plays defense like last season, it will be a successful year for him.
Agreed. We have 3 D-men who scored 10 goals last year, and I'd be utterly shocked if all three hit it again this year. And of those three, Leopold is the most likely to come off those numbers.
I think it's safe to expect Myers to not only reach it but exceed it. There's no reason to think his sophomore slump will happen again and with Ehrhoff a likely partner on power plays, opposing teams won't be able to focus as much on Myers at the point as they did last year IMO...
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords
But as long as he is moderately productive AND plays defense like last season, it will be a successful year for him.
Agreed - that's my hope for him as well. I'll be curious though to see how he fits with a like-minded offensive partner like Ehrhoff or Sekera - it would presumably force Leopold into more of a defensive role.
If it meant getting a legit natural NHL centre like Jeffrey, I would do it. Due to our depth at defense we would survive without him... up the middle is where the Sabres need help - the back end is pretty set.
I totally forgot about Grags..hmmmm Jesus we have 5 offensive defense men...I guess I would consider trading Sekera, Gragnani, or Leopold but only for a great deal. I don't think I've seen enough of Jeffrey to feel comfortable trading any one of them for him. I guess Leopold becomes the most likely one to trade because he's got the highest cap hit, but I actually think he's the best player out of the 3 so it would not be a good hockey move.
It all depends on the deal. But I'm quite happy with the defense we have, and I would prefer to see Regier have that entire deck to play with come deadline day.
I think it's safe to expect Myers to not only reach it but exceed it. There's no reason to think his sophomore slump will happen again and with Ehrhoff a likely partner on power plays, opposing teams won't be able to focus as much on Myers at the point as they did last year IMO...
Oh I wasn't implying none of them will--just that it's unlikely that all of them will. I think Myers and Ehrhoff probably get there.
Extra dmen? Having 5 top 4 dmen is not a "problem" that needs to be fixed.
Didn't say that. But we can and should improve our center situation. Doing that, we'd likely lose a dman.
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The problem is posters are merging issues.
1. Center depth, which we actually have with Roy, Leino, Hecht, Adam, Goose and McCormick.
With
2. Do we have the top 6 centers needed to win? Roy and Leino will answer that question this season.
Leino will answer that question. I have no problem taking the chance. But you listed 6 guys, 4 of whom are pretty much more effective outside.
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Adding more bottom 6 centers like Jeffery does absolutely nothing to change #2.
Posters get hung up on center depth in the generic as if it's a virtue unto itself.
It is a virtue in and of itself. We won't know if we have any until we see how Leino does. And I'm absolutely willing to trade Leopold in order to sure up that situation and to not have to deal with that annoyance of lacking depth at the position to rely on.
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How deep was Vancouver at center? Not very. but the quality was top notch and that's why they won. I'm fine with our depth but have concerns with our top 6. Leino is the wildcard that needs to play out.
The quality blows ours out of the water up front. When you have several elite forwards, you can get away with a bit more. Not to mention the fact that they have TWO ELITE centers. Alex Burrows is not one of Vancouver's top 3 forwards. Yikes.
Extra dmen? Having 5 top 4 dmen is not a "problem" that needs to be fixed.
The problem is posters are merging issues.
1. Center depth, which we actually have with Roy, Leino, Hecht, Adam, Goose and McCormick.
It's arguable that we have center depth. We have a wealth of potential centers but still have a lot of questions at the position. Leino isn't the only one. Gaustad and Hecht have been both hit or miss down the middle. I think the chance they're taking is, at least two of Leino, Hecht, Adam, Goose, etc will hit as top 9 centers and if not, the defense/Roy/wing depth will allow them to chill until another potential fix becomes available. I'd love a more concrete option in the top 9, but if standing pat now means getting someone like Nielsen at the deadline, I'm cool with it.
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2. Do we have the top 6 centers needed to win? Roy and Leino will answer that question this season.
Adding more bottom 6 centers like Jeffery does absolutely nothing to change #2.
Are you forgetting 09/10? Having effective third and fourth lines can mitigate poor play in the top six for a relatively extended period. The worrisome thing is that if Leino bombs, we might not have the strong bottom six to offset that if Goose can't keep his form and Hecht also has a slow start.
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Posters get hung up on center depth in the generic as if it's a virtue unto itself.
It sorta is. Having more centers lets you create many different looks offensively.
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How deep was Vancouver at center? Not very. but the quality was top notch and that's why they won. I'm fine with our depth but have concerns with our top 6. Leino is the wildcard that needs to play out.
And they lost in the finals in part because of how shallow they were at center. People want another depth center because not only are we banking on Leino to play a role he hasn't in the NHL (a risk I'm fine with taking, for the record), but we're also hoping for Hecht/Gaustad/Adam to play as the full time third line center when none of those players hasn't been a top nine center for a full NHL season in 3 years, 3 years and never, respectively.
Also, as for the concept of this thread, I'd much rather move wing depth/prospect defensive depth/picks for a center, rather than someone off of the NHL defensive roster, especially since we're not sure what we have in a lot of these guys yet and what the pairings are gonna be.
Last edited by struckbyaparkedcar: 08-04-2011 at 10:55 PM.
Didn't say that. But we can and should improve our center situation. Doing that, we'd likely lose a dman.
Adding Jefferey by trading away Leopold does not make the team better or improve our center situation beyond adding another body. It also weakens our defense.
Jeffery is not an upgrade at the position over Hecht, Adam or Goose. So why trade away a dmen and downgrade your defensive strength for that?
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Leino will answer that question. I have no problem taking the chance. But you listed 6 guys, 4 of whom are pretty much more effective outside.
Roy, Adam, Goose and McCormick are all as good or better at center as they are at wing. Leino is an unknown in the NHL at center but has played the position for most of his playing days. Hecht has been quite effective filling in for injuries at center.
So as I said we have 6 centers.
I do love the backtracking many are doing with Hecht. He was a key loss for the playoffs and was very effective in the top 6 this past year. Now he suddenly can't handle a lesser role as a 3rd line center.
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It is a virtue in and of itself. We won't know if we have any until we see how Leino does. And I'm absolutely willing to trade Leopold in order to sure up that situation and to not have to deal with that annoyance of lacking depth at the position to rely on.
Trading Leopold for Jefferey (the trade that started this thread) does nothing to improve over the current options we have for 3rd line center.
So we weaken our defense in order to add a center that isn't an upgrade over the 3rd line center options we already have and isn't a replacement for either top 6 center if one was needed.
So no, adding centers in and off itself is not a virtue.
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The quality blows ours out of the water up front. When you have several elite forwards, you can get away with a bit more. Not to mention the fact that they have TWO ELITE centers. Alex Burrows is not one of Vancouver's top 3 forwards. Yikes
You're missing the point. I'm showing an example of why the quality of your top centers matters more than your depth.
I don't have an issue with adding a kid like Jeffery to the team. I would like it. But I'm not overpaying to get him just because he is a center.
It's arguable that we have center depth. We have a wealth of potential centers but still have a lot of questions at the position. Leino isn't the only one. Gaustad and Hecht have been both hit or miss down the middle. I think the chance they're taking is, at least two of Leino, Hecht, Adam, Goose, etc will hit as top 9 centers and if not, the defense/Roy/wing depth will allow them to chill until another potential fix becomes available. I'd love a more concrete option in the top 9, but if standing pat now means getting someone like Nielsen at the deadline, I'm cool with it.
I agree with the bolded. But adding Jeffery does nothing to change the bolded. So I'm not giving up a dman of Leopold's caliber for him.
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Are you forgetting 09/10? Having effective third and fourth lines can mitigate poor play in the top six for a relatively extended period. The worrisome thing is that if Leino bombs, we might not have the strong bottom six to offset that if Goose can't keep his form and Hecht also has a slow start.
I'm talking about the playoffs not the regular season. In the playoffs if Leino tanks it will be up to Roy primarily, not the bottom 6 centers, to overcome that. The bottom 6 will not be relied upon as much as you seem to think they will be. Nor will just centers be asked to carry the load if Leino doesn't work out at center. Vanek, Pommer, Stafford and Ennis will be called upon to step it up.
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It sorta is. Having more centers lets you create many different looks offensively.
Having a lot of offensive talent gives you those options. They don't have to be centers.
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And they lost in the finals in part because of how shallow they were at center. People want another depth center because not only are we banking on Leino to play a role he hasn't in the NHL (a risk I'm fine with taking, for the record), but we're also hoping for Hecht/Gaustad/Adam to play as the full time third line center when none of those players hasn't been a top nine center for a full NHL season in 3 years, 3 years and never, respectively.
Vancouver lost because its defense was decimated by injuries and a suspension and Kesler was a shell of himself.
When you have two stars at center like Sedin/Kesler that you rely that heavily on you're going to be in trouble if one gets hurt. Its a tad silly to expect they shouild have had "center depth" to be able to deal with that. That there should have been another center on the team that could juts step in and do what Kesler does. The reality is they could have rode their defense to victory with Kesler out since it was such a strength for them all season. But their d-corp was a battered shell of itself in the Fianls and wasn't up to the task.
Too many posters are coming to this somewhat ridiculous notion that you can have enough depth at center (or anywhere else for that matter) to over come all sorts of injury issues. The reality is the margins in the playoffs are so close that losing a handful of top players usually does a team in. In this cap world you're not going to have enough players to overcome every eventuality, particualrly losing top players. Its just not possible.
If Boston had lost any combo of Thomas, Chara or Bergeron they would be f'd. No amount of depth players is going to overcome those types of losses.
Thats why part of winning in the playoffs is having a little bit of luck with injuries.
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Also, as for the concept of this thread, I'd much rather move wing depth/prospect defensive depth/picks for a center, rather than someone off of the NHL defensive roster, especially since we're not sure what we have in a lot of these guys yet and what the pairings are gonna be
And Jeffrey is better suited for the 3rd line then Goose who should be strictly getting 10 minutes a game tops.
That's just ludicrous. Why would a player that hasn't had any significant time at the NHL level be better suited to fill the 3rd line role when he's smaller, not as physical, not great on faceoffs etc. Goose is more than capable of playing in excess of 10minutes per game and player rather well. I won't drag in the stats as I'll leave that up to Josh but Goose's play down the stretch was admirable and he showed he definitely is a decent 3rd line center.
Pens fan here. Any chance Buffalo is willing to move Leopold now that you guys are pretty stacked on D. What's your D pairings look like? I'd love to have him as a #5 on the Pens.
At this point I can't really see Darcy and Company moving Leopold unless he's included in a package for Staal/Malkin or for an upgrade in the back such as Orpik. I also wouldn't consider our Defense to be "stacked", it's fairly deep now but I wouldn't consider it "stacked".
If I had to take a guess on what our Opening night Defense looks like it probably looks something like this:
Buffalo's Defense
Regehr-Myers
Leopold-Ehrhoff
Sekera-Weber
X Gragnani/Brennan
I am also not too comfortable about moving Leopold yet due to the fact that Sekera still hasn't shown enough consistency in my opinion to be considered a Top Four Defenceman. Don't get me wrong Rej had moments of brilliance last season and at times was our best Defenceman but then there was moments when he was still too inconsistent. However, this is a big year for Sekera's development and depending on his play could make Leopold expendable down the road.
At this point I can't really see Darcy and Company moving Leopold unless he's included in a package for Staal/Malkin or for an upgrade in the back such as Orpik. I also wouldn't consider our Defense to be "stacked", it's fairly deep now but I wouldn't consider it "stacked".
If I had to take a guess on what our Opening night Defense looks like it probably looks something like this:
Buffalo's Defense
Regehr-Myers
Leopold-Ehrhoff
Sekera-Weber
X Gragnani/Brennan
I am also not too comfortable about moving Leopold yet due to the fact that Sekera still hasn't shown enough consistency in my opinion to be considered a Top Four Defenceman. Don't get me wrong Rej had moments of brilliance last season and at times was our best Defenceman but then there was moments when he was still too inconsistent. However, this is a big year for Sekera's development and depending on his play could make Leopold expendable down the road.
I agree, some of his decision making has been a bit suspect over the past 2 seasons, and I think that's a poor reflection on the coaching but it's also just a part of gaining experience. His ability is undeniable, without a doubt a 40 point caliber player, and no surprise here if he scores 50 a few times too.
