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Old
08-30-2011, 06:51 PM
  #401
101st_fan
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
I, and several others, have repeatedly listed several players that were available by trade or FA that would have improved our team. Unfortunately, most of those guys are not available today. That doesn't mean that were never available to us. We have to look at the entirety of the summer. We may not be able to make a move on August 30th, but that doesn't mean we should have been standing on our hands all summer.

I don't see how you can just say "well, if we just improve our power play, we're fine". That's probably more complicated than finding the right player in trade or free agency.

We've got the same coaches. We've got the same players. We've got the same GM. Something tell's me we're not going to just snap our fingers and the power play is fixed.
This isn't a one year fluky flaw. This is the same Predators problem that has been rearing it's head for years. It's very likely going to rear it's head again throughout the year, and again in the playoffs.

And I don't see the TML or the Rangers as a valid comparison. They're blowing money and they're not even close to a cup. They blow their teams up, and when it doesn't work, blow it up again. They don't even allow their farm system to produce.

Our situation is different - I think most would agree that we're really only 1 piece from serious cup contention. No one is asking to go out and throw bucks around like the Rangers. All were asking is to supplement the contending team we have in order to give us the greatest possible chance at a Stanley Cup.
You listed a bunch of players you wanted, but, didn't take into account the other team's willingness to move such players, if we had the type players to meet their needs, or in the case of FAs if they were even going to consider the Preds.

If you're going to quote me ... at least get it right. What I said was ""We can't score" is a simplistic complaint. "We can't score 5on4 consistently and our overall PP percentage is well below the league average" is a lot more accurate and should serve to focus the discussion on the areas that truly need work." not"well, if we just improve our power play, we're fine". There is a major difference in the two, if you don't see it ..... well ....... [deleted to not offend].

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08-30-2011, 06:57 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Joetimo View Post
oh btw

"According to Kevin McGran, Leafs forward Matthew Lombardi has been declared symptom-free of concussion like symptoms."

So all you guys praising the franson move can go you know what.
Now for the details .... those pesky little things:
Quote:
He is cleared for full activity on the bike,
Good for him

Quote:
Penguins star Sidney Crosby had advanced further than Lombardi skating at about 90 per cent but recently is reported to have suffered a setback. Lombardi is not skating.
Not so good ... see Bouillon's setbacks as well.
Quote:
I dont believe he will be there for the first day of training camp,
Even Burkie doesn't think he'll be ready.

If Lombardi wasn't moved we'd have $3.5mil of dead salary on the books right now until he comes back. Our cap hit once we put a 6th healthy defender would be about the same as last season's. With him gone, and the necessary add-on of Franson to that deal, the logjam in the d-man pipeline is partially alleviated and we have money to spend when the right player becomes available.

Just how loud would you complain if we had his salary on the books still and he wasn't dressed? Be honest with yourself before you post, I know what I'd expect out of you in that situation.

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08-30-2011, 07:12 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
You listed a bunch of players you wanted, but, didn't take into account the other team's willingness to move such players, if we had the type players to meet their needs, or in the case of FAs if they were even going to consider the Preds.

If you're going to quote me ... at least get it right. What I said was ""We can't score" is a simplistic complaint. "We can't score 5on4 consistently and our overall PP percentage is well below the league average" is a lot more accurate and should serve to focus the discussion on the areas that truly need work." not"well, if we just improve our power play, we're fine". There is a major difference in the two, if you don't see it ..... well ....... [deleted to not offend].
OK

"We can't score 5on4 consistently and our overall PP percentage is well below the league average" is a lot more accurate and should serve to focus the discussion on the areas that truly need work"

Happier?

Again, we can focus on it all we want. The same players, same coaches, same system will very likely get the same results.

As for available players - there's many factors that go into it. But i'm not buying the argument that there wasn't one single player out there that could have helped the team in some way.

I can't tell you with 100% certainty that we didn't turn over every rock looking for a player that would make us a better team. But you can't state with 100% certainty that we didn't just spend the entire offseason sitting on our hands (except for the unproductive text msgs to Weber's agent) and aren't going to stuff the extra cash into our pockets.

Maybe you're right, and Nick Spaling will score 15 playoff goals and we'll all attend a Cup parade down 2nd avenue.

Or maybe i'm right, and we'll continue to have trouble scoring, especially on the powerplay, and we'll eek into the playoffs around 6-8, and get dumped by a more complete team.

Either way, we'll look back at this summer and what we didn't do will likely play a big part in it.


Last edited by Seth Lake: 08-30-2011 at 11:25 PM. Reason: vulgar/flaming
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08-30-2011, 08:09 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
OK

"We can't score 5on4 consistently and our overall PP percentage is well below the league average" is a lot more accurate and should serve to focus the discussion on the areas that truly need work"

Happier?

Again, we can focus on it all we want. The same players, same coaches, same system will very likely get the same results.

As for available players - there's many factors that go into it. But i'm not buying the argument that there wasn't one single player out there that could have helped the team in some way.

I can't tell you with 100% certainty that we didn't turn over every rock looking for a player that would make us a better team. But you can't state with 100% certainty that we didn't just spend the entire offseason sitting on our hands (except for the unproductive text msgs to Weber's agent) and aren't going to stuff the extra cash into our pockets.

Maybe you're right, and Nick Spaling will score 15 playoff goals and we'll all attend a Cup parade down 2nd avenue.

Or maybe i'm right, and we'll continue to have trouble scoring, especially on the powerplay, and we'll eek into the playoffs around 6-8, and get dumped by a more complete team.

Either way, we'll look back at this summer and what we didn't do will likely play a big part in it.
I agree with you ...this is the first year that Poile's armour is clinked. Before he scoured over the coals and found diamonds in the rough. But now that we emerged as a legit with pieces added as a contender to go deeper in the playoffs and with the right breaks play for the Cup. He played terrific under the radar but now the spotlight is on us and now him and he has stuttered. Now everyone defending him say who could he have gone after well that is not our worry so to speak it's Poile's because we aren't privy to all the talk and information he gets calls on or called on and we will never know all that we know what we have to know that nothing happened and when he talks how Nick Spaling is our answer to all of this is weak
as his attempt to sign Weber to a long term contract. First we hear Poile has done a great job of drafting now we hear that our prospects are not that good so which is it? We are doing what we always do and if you take out Weber and Suter and Rinne all their contract are due at the end of the year is that we sign under acheivers for other teams and hope with them along with our prospects to find some offense while our leftovers have to pick it up so to speak. I honestly don't feel that if Poile's feet wasn't held over the fire would he say like I'll try to get a legit scorer that he wouldn't


Last edited by Seth Lake: 08-30-2011 at 11:25 PM. Reason: edited quoted post
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08-30-2011, 08:23 PM
  #405
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Boy this thread certainly went into 100 directions.

On predfan98's rumor, I fully believe that he heard this and that his source is telling the truth. But funny things happen when rumors go down the grapevine. Ever play that game Telephone? I have a feeling what was originally said got taken out of context, and twisted into what we heard today.

I bet what was originally said was something like "Weber is hesitant to sign long term due to the team not being able to spend to the cap," but as it made its way down the grapevine, it developed into "Weber demanded that Poile spend to the cap."

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08-30-2011, 08:25 PM
  #406
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Thank you all for the great laughs reading this thread. I've appreciated the amusement you've all left me with the last 15 minutes. Kudos.

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08-30-2011, 09:04 PM
  #407
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Guys, predfan98 is a woman. She's a very nice lady, in fact. Also, just because some posters have decided not to spend yet another summer being pessimistic doesn't mean they think things are all "rainbows". The extremes are getting out of hand. The personal attacks are uncalled for, too. We are all here to talk about the same thing, and that's the Predators. Some of us think that Poile hasn't done enough over the summer. Some of us think that there hasn't been a lot of options from which to choose. There is absolutely no sense in any of this extra crap that's being thrown around.

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08-30-2011, 09:12 PM
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
OK

"We can't score 5on4 consistently and our overall PP percentage is well below the league average" is a lot more accurate and should serve to focus the discussion on the areas that truly need work"

Happier?

Again, we can focus on it all we want. The same players, same coaches, same system will very likely get the same results.

As for available players - there's many factors that go into it. But i'm not buying the argument that there wasn't one single player out there that could have helped the team in some way.

I can't tell you with 100% certainty that we didn't turn over every rock looking for a player that would make us a better team. But you can't state with 100% certainty that we didn't just spend the entire offseason sitting on our hands (except for the unproductive text msgs to Weber's agent) and aren't going to stuff the extra cash into our pockets.

Maybe you're right, and Nick Spaling will score 15 playoff goals and we'll all attend a Cup parade down 2nd avenue.

Or maybe i'm right, and we'll continue to have trouble scoring, especially on the powerplay, and we'll eek into the playoffs around 6-8, and get dumped by a more complete team.

Either way, we'll look back at this summer and what we didn't do will likely play a big part in it.
Please show me where I've ever said a thing about Spaling scoring 15 goals. I'm starting to form the opinion that there is intelligent conversation, and on the other end of the spectrum there is trying to discuss hockey with you. You seem to have a need to put words in people's posts that simply are not there.

Which roster players are you willing to give up to acquire your wish list players? For most of them, the cost would probably be a roster player (Wilson or Blum would probably be on a lot of team's want lists in return), a prospect (Josi, Ellis, Ekholm, Beck, Latta), and picks. To bring in Boyes, are you willing to pay Wilson, Josi and a pick or two? For Kostitsyn, are you willing to send a roster forward with offensive potential, maybe a forward prospect, and a pick? How much more do you think it would have cost to convince Cole to play for us rather than the Habs after years in a small market? Were we even in a position to front load a deal with signing bonuses in the midst of the Weber drama? All factors that go into acquiring a player that you simply ignore.

There is always room for improvement in every category, but when the Preds are scoring more 5on5 goals than the Caps and Pens, that isn't an area that is a glaring deficiency. 14th in the league in ES goals, with our OT woes and the inability to score 4on4 for long stretches of play. The team hovers in that top 1/2 to 1/3 in ES scoring every season, but the PP is another story all together. 5on4 the Preds show a poor conversion percentage, poor overall goals, and poor goals/time.

You complain about the same coaches, yet, this staff had a PP in the top 10 at 18.4% ... so did they forget what the PP is supposed to do? They got ten PP goals out of Adam Hall in a season. Same players? To a degree ... but who has QB'd the PP for the past few years? I'll contend we lack that player and have since the Zidlicky trade. He may have sucked at a lot of things, but, he was effective in that role. That's the same place the team experimented putting Sully for a while, with mediocre results. Is it gaining the zone that is now the issue? How about winning PP faceoffs? An entire series of possibilities that don't require acquiring a prolific "scorer" but require some thought as to why the team can score when they aren't up a man but can't when they have the advantage.

Just how much extra cash do you think the team is sitting on right now? If we bring up Ellis and Josi as the 5 and 6 healthy d-men, don't bring up anyone else and go with Cube on IR until he gets healthy and the team is at about $50mil in cap hit. Callups during the season tend to run about $2mil .... that's about $52mil for the year without adding anyone from outside of the org, or more than last season's hit after players failed to qualify for bonuses.


Last edited by Seth Lake: 08-30-2011 at 11:26 PM. Reason: Edited quoted post
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08-30-2011, 09:14 PM
  #409
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ThirdMan, sometimes the best thing to do is nothing and some people don't realize that. It's as if we make a move, it's not the right one or we don't make a move and it's not the right one. Well, any move that we make or don't make can only be judged after the fact. I personally love the fact that Poile gutted the roster of aging non producing vets and guys that underperformed like Ward. He's given the reigns and opportunity to the young players on our roster, many of which helped us in the playoff race and advance to the second round. Maybe letting the natural course of growth and maturation is exactly what needs to happen and it won't if guys like Sully, Ward and Dumont are getting ice time instead of guys like Geoffrion, Wilson, Bergfors, Spaling, Halischuk and O'Reilly. Trotz and Poile obviously feel ok about it or they would've done something already.

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08-30-2011, 09:32 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
ThirdMan, sometimes the best thing to do is nothing and some people don't realize that. It's as if we make a move, it's not the right one or we don't make a move and it's not the right one. Well, any move that we make or don't make can only be judged after the fact. I personally love the fact that Poile gutted the roster of aging non producing vets and guys that underperformed like Ward. He's given the reigns and opportunity to the young players on our roster, many of which helped us in the playoff race and advance to the second round. Maybe letting the natural course of growth and maturation is exactly what needs to happen and it won't if guys like Sully, Ward and Dumont are getting ice time instead of guys like Geoffrion, Wilson, Bergfors, Spaling, Halischuk and O'Reilly. Trotz and Poile obviously feel ok about it or they would've done something already.
I agree with what you're saying. I do think we are still missing a piece, and I've thought for a while that the piece we are missing is an effective player on the PP. For a while I was thinking a pure scorer, even one who doesn't get much ESTOI because he can't play defense, could help that, but the more 101st argues it the more I agree with him that a PPQB could be that piece. Do we have that piece right now? Not if you look at guys who are a lock to be on the roster. Could Ellis be that piece? Definitely. You don't need size to quarterback a PP. If he isn't then there might be a deal to be made, but PPQBs are about as rare as 30+ goal scorers. Like I said a while back, or maybe on the preds.com board, when a GM has his team to the point to where the one piece you lack is also a very rare piece across the league then he had to have been doing something right at some point.

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08-30-2011, 09:35 PM
  #411
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So there was no one worth signing at their price. Ok.

So no one either wanted what we have or wanted to trade with us or we didn't really want that guy anyway. Ok.

Then we need to draft 1st line talent. As much as people pimp up our prospect pool the forwards are nothing to write home about. And they aren't close enough to improve this team this year.

If we cannot draft the talent then we need to sign it or trade for it. We cannot sign it because they are always overpaid or it isn't the right guy. We cannot trade for it because no one wants what we have to offer. So who's fault is that? And the real question is, how do we improve the offense?


Last edited by Jarnberg: 08-30-2011 at 09:42 PM.
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08-30-2011, 09:41 PM
  #412
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Drafting first line talent is a nice idea, and I agree that we should certainly be targeting forwards with high end potential, but there are still only so many of those guys. The majority of them go in the first ten picks in an average draft (that is to say the majority of forwards projected to be legitimate first liners go in the first ten or so picks, not the majority of top line talent in the league today was drafted in the top ten or so spots). Should we be trading for higher first round picks? Then we're giving up assets for futures, but we aren't in a position to rebuild. Should we tank? I don't see that benefiting the team financially long term. Don't get me wrong, I agree that drafting some top flight forwards would be awesome, but it's almost the same as saying "go buy a used car for less than $4000, but get one that will last ten years."

Also, Beck, Latta, Bourque, Smith, and Budish could all be top six, if not first liners. Radulov was a clear cut first liner, but we all know what happened there. Legwand was projected to be a first liner, but production-wise (offensively) I'd say that didn't work. Watson could be another one that has top six potential. Geoffrion's ceiling looks to be higher than a lot expected.

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08-30-2011, 09:45 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I agree with what you're saying. I do think we are still missing a piece, and I've thought for a while that the piece we are missing is an effective player on the PP. For a while I was thinking a pure scorer, even one who doesn't get much ESTOI because he can't play defense, could help that, but the more 101st argues it the more I agree with him that a PPQB could be that piece. Do we have that piece right now? Not if you look at guys who are a lock to be on the roster. Could Ellis be that piece? Definitely. You don't need size to quarterback a PP. If he isn't then there might be a deal to be made, but PPQBs are about as rare as 30+ goal scorers. Like I said a while back, or maybe on the preds.com board, when a GM has his team to the point to where the one piece you lack is also a very rare piece across the league then he had to have been doing something right at some point.
I'm not sure Ellis is ready, but, Blum for a full season and Josi are probably upgrades as the PP point puck mover/QB from what we've had the past few seasons. Klein isn't that guy. Franson wasn't. Weber isn't. Cube ... not so much. SOB? And while Suter is a good all around d-man, that isn't an area he really excels in. It would be wonderful if Ellis's offensive ability instantly translated to NHL success, but, any improvement filling that role is a step in the right direction.

Then we just need to couple that with forwards moving the puck quickly and crisply ... but one step at a time for now.

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08-30-2011, 09:48 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Drafting first line talent is a nice idea, and I agree that we should certainly be targeting forwards with high end potential, but there are still only so many of those guys. The majority of them go in the first ten picks in an average draft (that is to say the majority of forwards projected to be legitimate first liners go in the first ten or so picks, not the majority of top line talent in the league today was drafted in the top ten or so spots). Should we be trading for higher first round picks? Then we're giving up assets for futures, but we aren't in a position to rebuild. Should we tank? I don't see that benefiting the team financially long term. Don't get me wrong, I agree that drafting some top flight forwards would be awesome, but it's almost the same as saying "go buy a used car for less than $4000, but get one that will last ten years."
Yeah except the Detroit Red Wings sort of prove that wrong.

Granted this isn't the holy grail but it is quite common to see stuff like this:

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1024

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1035

Just read the different in projections.

Again if we cannot draft offense, then we need to sign it or trade for it.

Quote:
Also, Beck, Latta, Bourque, Smith, and Budish could all be top six, if not first liners. Radulov was a clear cut first liner, but we all know what happened there. Legwand was projected to be a first liner, but production-wise (offensively) I'd say that didn't work. Watson could be another one that has top six potential. Geoffrion's ceiling looks to be higher than a lot expected.
They all look like good prospects (well except for Budish) but none are projected first line talent or guys who can lead an offense.

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08-30-2011, 09:57 PM
  #415
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Yeah I think the PP is where the focus should be. Offense even strength is fine, especially 5-on-5. With the man advantage we are simply atrocious. Even an 18% PP would put our overall offense in the top half of the league. A defense in the top five and an offense in the top 15 makes us a very scary team. Put that offense and that defense out in front of Rinne from last year, and who really know where the team ends up?

Stranger, I get what you're saying, but I'm just now starting to actually look at prospects/drafts critically, so I'm not going to pretend to be any sort of authority on the subject. I'll have to respectively remove myself from this discussion before I make myself look stupid

I do wonder if anyone knows what the scouting budget is for Detroit and what it is for Nashville.

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08-30-2011, 10:03 PM
  #416
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I do wonder if anyone knows what the scouting budget is for Detroit and what it is for Nashville.
Don't know the finances, but we have very good scouts. They are commonly picked off by other teams looking to improve their staffs...

Detroit has 4 pro scouts, we have 2. Detroit has 4 amateur scouts in North America, we have 7. Detroit has 5 European scouts, we have 3. Total # of scouts: Detroit 13, Nashville 12.

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08-30-2011, 10:05 PM
  #417
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Yeah I think the PP is where the focus should be. Offense even strength is fine, especially 5-on-5. With the man advantage we are simply atrocious. Even an 18% PP would put our overall offense in the top half of the league. A defense in the top five and an offense in the top 15 makes us a very scary team. Put that offense and that defense out in front of Rinne from last year, and who really know where the team ends up?
That team probably walks away with the cup.

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Stranger, I get what you're saying, but I'm just now starting to actually look at prospects/drafts critically, so I'm not going to pretend to be any sort of authority on the subject. I'll have to respectively remove myself from this discussion before I make myself look stupid

I do wonder if anyone knows what the scouting budget is for Detroit and what it is for Nashville.
I'm not trying to knock you. I proposed a legitimate question. I we cannot draft it, we have to sign or trade for it. Signing isn't going to happen because everyone is overpaid. And apparently we cannot even trade for it because no one wants what we have to offer.

So is this board's idea of what we need to do is hope for career years from our current group and hope that one of Beck or Smith or whoever step up and provide another 20-30 goals?

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08-30-2011, 10:18 PM
  #418
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So far I think there are three prevailing schools of thought, and a fourth opinion that seems to be the very small minority. First, there is a group who thinks we need to make a move now for a top six/top three forward. Second, there is a group who thinks that another 50-60pt guy will add enough depth to our forward corps to improve our offense. Third, there is the group that thinks the PP needs an upgrade. Fourth, there is a group (albeit it small) that thinks we stand pat with what we have, at least until we know more specifically what we need.

I don't agree with the first group at all. I mean, in principle I do. It'd be nice to get that guy, but I don't think the move is available. Personally, I like the second idea if a PP upgrade either presents itself in the form of an existing asset (Blum, Ellis, Josi, etc), but I'm beginning to think that working around finding a piece for the man advantage is our best bet. The fourth idea could prove to be the best, but on the other hand it could prove to be a risk that backfires.

I think everyone is hoping for career years from the youngsters, and we are all hoping that some of the young guys making bigger strides towards the big club will prove to be good players. I don't think very many are ready to rely on those things happening.

and I know you weren't trying to knock me. I didn't take anything you said as a slight against me. I just didn't want to simply ignore you, and I didn't want to start talking out of my ass while hoping no one would pick up on it or call me on it. I'm trying to learn more about prospects, especially those coming up in future drafts, but I have a lot going on right now so it's been slow going.

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08-30-2011, 10:22 PM
  #419
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Don't know the finances, but we have very good scouts. They are commonly picked off by other teams looking to improve their staffs...

Detroit has 4 pro scouts, we have 2. Detroit has 4 amateur scouts in North America, we have 7. Detroit has 5 European scouts, we have 3. Total # of scouts: Detroit 13, Nashville 12.
Thanks! I wasn't trying to knock our scouting crew. I've heard nothing but good things about them (except from various posters on various boards, but I take those comments with a grain of salt considering they are typically more emotional based opinions rather than opinions formed after solid judgment). I just wasn't sure if we had as many, or if those guys had the same ability to go to different areas of the world in order to scout players. As I said, I'm a newbie when it comes to this area of the game. I have no idea how it works

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08-30-2011, 10:29 PM
  #420
PredsV82
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Haste makes waste. Poile waited too long. Should've signed him with the other agent.
How??? You and trigg and anyone else tell me how poile could have forced weber to sign a multi year deal, at any time, when he clearly had no intention of signing for more than one year?


Last edited by PredsV82: 08-30-2011 at 10:40 PM.
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08-30-2011, 10:40 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
By the time we add a 6th healthy d-man and factor in the inevitable call-ups and we're pretty close to last season's cap hit. Add a forward, even at the trade deadline and we surpass last year's number unless we ship quite a bit of money out as part of a trade.
And is that really the point of Poile's comment? He led us to believe that "our owners are willing to open up the pocket books and spend more than last year", i.e., we're looking to bring some offense in from outside.

Instead of saying, "we're going to spend more than last year", how inspired would you have been if he had expounded on that comment by saying, "we're going to get there by giving Weber an arbitration awarded 1 year raise, adding a 6th D-man, bringing in Bergfors off the scrap heap, and possibly getting a rental at the deadline. Oh, and also giving our RFA's raises, can't forget about that."

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08-30-2011, 10:41 PM
  #422
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When the PLAYER says he doesn't want to work a deal until after the season, and then changes agents during those negotiations .... just when is Poile supposed to have made this agreement you say "should've" been done?
Poile should have said, fine, we'll go talk to Suter and see what we can get done with him. Basically he should have done anything but sit on his hands and wait for arbitration.

He has not effectively managed the free agent process for any free agent we've ever had, and I'm pretty sure that's part of his job description.


Last edited by gopreds19: 08-30-2011 at 10:51 PM.
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08-30-2011, 10:48 PM
  #423
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So Suter, Rinne, Weber, Radulov and Hamhuis all wanted to wait until the next season to talk about contract extensions? I find that hard to believe.

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08-30-2011, 11:01 PM
  #424
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So Suter, Rinne, Weber, Radulov and Hamhuis all wanted to wait until the next season to talk about contract extensions? I find that hard to believe.
Meanwhile, JVR, Logan Couture, and even (gasp) UFA to be Brent Burns have all recently extended before the coming season.

It's a weird coincidence that we keep finding players that just refuse to negotiate until June 15th. What a bunch of meanies!

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08-30-2011, 11:10 PM
  #425
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So Suter, Rinne, Weber, Radulov and Hamhuis all wanted to wait until the next season to talk about contract extensions? I find that hard to believe.
Well, Radulov I think we can all agree is a nutjob and shouldn't be used as a comparable. Hamhuis I don't think we ever really wanted to re-sign at his price tag. Legwand, Dumont, and Erat all signed before the off-season.

Here's the thing though, didn't Poile say, right after the arb hearing, that he'd sit down with Suter and Rinne when they got back in to town? Well they are back and we get the news that negotiations will wait until further down the road. So did Poile suddenly change his mind? Was he not truthful in the first place? Or did the players delay it?

Not saying Poile is innocent here (he isn't), but there are two sides to every story.

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