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Sean Avery arrested (UPDATE: Charges Dropped)

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08-19-2011, 10:13 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
There is bias, of course there is. It's mostly because he runs his mouth on the ice and its gets annoying.
Which, in my opinion, comes down to a bias. If you want to give the guy an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty (which he has received) then fine. I've said in the past and will continue to say that when he gets those types of penalties I am furious, because he of all people should know he can't say a word. And that bothers me.

But when he runs his mouth and nothing is called, and then on his next shift he's forechecking clean as anything, and gets called for boarding. It's BS. It's ****ing BS. No other way around it.


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All of your facts are really what ifs.

If you believe Avery is being persecuted, ask yourself why. The NHL has decided that Avery must be blackballed out of hockey. This represents a fact to you.

Bettman has ordered the refs to ruin Avery's career. Right.

And his lack of ice time is because of this. His taking of penalties, going offsides more than any player I have ever seen, and showing up every 5 to 10 games is other people's faults.

Are the linesmen calling phony off sides, too?

If everone is railroading him, how does he play a great game every few weeks? Do the refs allow it as a tease? Is he so talented that despite being shackled, his greatness can't forever be held back?

I have never seen a player defended so much for doing so little.

See the thing is you want me to commit to this whole conspiracy thing and I'm not going to do it because I don't think it has to be that deep. I understand your angle, trust me, and I can see why you're playing it.

At the same time I don't see why it's difficult to understand that there are plenty of referees who have to deal with Avery's **** on a nightly basis, and much like you, can't stand the freaking guy. Would it really shock you if you found out that those referees never gave him the benefit of the doubt, and every time he did something borderline called him on it? Because it wouldn't shock me, since I see it happen all the time. And yet, at the same time I don't think there's any conspiracy there.

It's not a super hard thing to realize that there are plenty of people who just don't like the guy. You're a perfect example of that. And when you have an individual who lots of people just don't like, they're not given much leeway.

Do I think Bettman has something to do with it? Not really. I think it comes down to officials being human beings, and them not liking the guy. Regardless of their opinion of him, and your constant "he's responsible for himself" stuff, it doesn't change the fact that what is a penalty is a penalty, and what isn't a penalty isn't.

That should be the end of the story, and unfortunately with Avery it's not. Clean body checks turn into boarding. Typical after the whistle face washes turn into roughing penalties. Any time he challenges a guy turns into a major. It's just the way it's been. If you want to blame Avery, that's fine. There are times he is guilty of course. But to neglect how obvious it is how many things he's called for that other players wouldn't be is naive at best.

And I don't take you as someone who's naive. I just take you as someone who is much like lots of NHL officials; biased.

Why does Avery get a great game in once a week? Cause the same refs don't do every game chosen. There are still individuals who call the game (or at least try to) the way it's supposed to be. They don't take into account which player it is, and focus on the play itself.

Your offsides example is a little far fetched. I've never once said Avery doesn't go offsides more than anyone on earth. I'm not sure what your point is though. It's an obvious call for officials, of course it's not biased. It's a completely different call than a penalty is. He's still a 30 point player with a regular shift, so what exactly is your point? Right I forgot, there's not room left in the NHL for him.


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08-20-2011, 12:07 AM
  #427
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not surprised by this considering the story broke on "TMZ"......here's to not passing judgement until the facts come out

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08-20-2011, 12:09 AM
  #428
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I also would love to see how many bros on this board that want him gone will post a "damn I miss Avery" post when he is gone

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08-20-2011, 09:51 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
..honestly seen people on HF wishing death or severe injury on the guy and it's just pathetic..
I saw some Rangers fans here wishing the same to Green on Wahington last year in the playoffs, so this is not just about Avery

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08-20-2011, 09:56 AM
  #430
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At the same time I don't see why it's difficult to understand that there are plenty of referees who have to deal with Avery's **** on a nightly basis, and much like you, can't stand the freaking guy.
In a nutshell you have described that Avery's problems are caused by himself. Since we know that refs are going to treat him poorly and persecute him, reason says don't use him. To continue to use him and watch it all fall apart over and over again is akin to the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result).

If Avery continues to annoy the refs and the refs treat him poorly and he ends up with less playing time, to not understand that the only person who can change the situation is Avery is borderline insane.

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08-20-2011, 01:11 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
In a nutshell you have described that Avery's problems are caused by himself. Since we know that refs are going to treat him poorly and persecute him, reason says don't use him. To continue to use him and watch it all fall apart over and over again is akin to the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result).

If Avery continues to annoy the refs and the refs treat him poorly and he ends up with less playing time, to not understand that the only person who can change the situation is Avery is borderline insane.
to watch it fall apart over and over again? he had 1 bad year and only finished 6 points shy of what his target should be.

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08-20-2011, 01:44 PM
  #432
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I also would love to see how many bros on this board that want him gone will post a "damn I miss Avery" post when he is gone
We have had posts lamenting the absence of Petr Nedved, Alex Kovalev, Sandy McCarthy, Matthew Barnaby... yeah, I'm sure they'll be one, but that doesn't really say anything at all.

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08-20-2011, 03:36 PM
  #433
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to watch it fall apart over and over again? he had 1 bad year and only finished 6 points shy of what his target should be.
In his career, he has averaged 27 points a year, incurred the wrath of the refs, incurred the wrath of his coaches, and displayed an inability to hold it together for long periods of time. To me he is not a player I'm striving to put into my lineup.

I realize that you and his supporters see something valuable in him. I just can't see it. I see a big, fat negative, who played very well when we first got him, who was okay the following season and who has been useless or worse since then.

Why can't he figure out a way to contribute without pissing off the refs? Why does he play an occasional great game and then disappear for long stretches? Why can't he understand what offsides is yet?

He has a good enough skillset to be a solid 3rd line guy, but for whatever reason he is unable to do so.

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08-20-2011, 03:58 PM
  #434
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In his career, he has averaged 27 points a year, incurred the wrath of the refs, incurred the wrath of his coaches, and displayed an inability to hold it together for long periods of time. To me he is not a player I'm striving to put into my lineup.

I realize that you and his supporters see something valuable in him. I just can't see it. I see a big, fat negative, who played very well when we first got him, who was okay the following season and who has been useless or worse since then.

Why can't he figure out a way to contribute without pissing off the refs? Why does he play an occasional great game and then disappear for long stretches? Why can't he understand what offsides is yet?

He has a good enough skillset to be a solid 3rd line guy, but for whatever reason he is unable to do so.
i dont know how you can not see his value when he has been the mvp of both our playoff series wins in 11 years. this was on a team with guys like jagr and henrik. i think you see his value but like tortorella just choose to ignore it.

we get it the offsides are annoying. does that mean he should be off the team?

my opinion of his great games and his stretches of nothing are this, one mistake by him, or someone else has a good game and the lines are shifted. he plays well, hes on the 1st line, he takes a penalty and back to the 4th line and less than 10 minutes of ice time.

i view it like a baseball player. if you keep giving a guy at bats consistently he will come out of a slump. avery did not get consistent ice time. i dont know how you are supposed to do anything when your on the 4th line, less than 10 minutes a night (really none in the 3rd) and if you take a penalty, your done and possibly scratched for the next game.

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08-20-2011, 06:27 PM
  #435
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I saw some Rangers fans here wishing the same to Green on Wahington last year in the playoffs, so this is not just about Avery
This is true, and equally pathetic but with Avery I find it even more infuriating because the character assassination is just absurd and over the top. Not too different with Green though. A 25 year old millionaire with tats and a faux hawk seems a little cocky so he should never be allowed on NHL ice again. Haters need some new hobbies.

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08-21-2011, 06:49 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by chip chipperson View Post
i dont know how you can not see his value when he has been the mvp of both our playoff series wins in 11 years. this was on a team with guys like jagr and henrik. i think you see his value but like tortorella just choose to ignore it.

we get it the offsides are annoying. does that mean he should be off the team?

my opinion of his great games and his stretches of nothing are this, one mistake by him, or someone else has a good game and the lines are shifted. he plays well, hes on the 1st line, he takes a penalty and back to the 4th line and less than 10 minutes of ice time.

i view it like a baseball player. if you keep giving a guy at bats consistently he will come out of a slump. avery did not get consistent ice time. i dont know how you are supposed to do anything when your on the 4th line, less than 10 minutes a night (really none in the 3rd) and if you take a penalty, your done and possibly scratched for the next game.
So, why does Torts treat him so differently and poorly? Is he part of the referee conspiracy? Why does Torts choose to "hurt" his team's chances of winning by screwing around with a "talented" player?

Were these MVPs you mentioned ever published somewhere because I don't remember them?

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08-21-2011, 08:34 AM
  #437
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So, why does Torts treat him so differently and poorly? Is he part of the referee conspiracy? Why does Torts choose to "hurt" his team's chances of winning by screwing around with a "talented" player?

Were these MVPs you mentioned ever published somewhere because I don't remember them?
torts hated him before he was a ranger and at least doesnt like him now. he had to be censored when he gave his view of avery before we hired him. he doesnt mind sitting the guy because he doesnt view scratching avery as hurting the club that much.

oh so avery needs to be literally given the title of mvp for you to acknowledge his playoff ownage those 2 years. right, how is that not ignoring it?

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08-21-2011, 11:11 AM
  #438
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In a nutshell you have described that Avery's problems are caused by himself. Since we know that refs are going to treat him poorly and persecute him, reason says don't use him. To continue to use him and watch it all fall apart over and over again is akin to the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result).

If Avery continues to annoy the refs and the refs treat him poorly and he ends up with less playing time, to not understand that the only person who can change the situation is Avery is borderline insane.
So, what you're saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that we should let the refs decide who can and can't play in the league based on who they do or don't show strong bias against? If the refs show bias against a player "reasons says don't use him" so fire the guy - get him off the team - end his career based on what the refs think of him. Avery isn't "annoying" the refs - is he? How? What did he do last season for example that angered the refs so much that they were justified in showing a bias toward him? I didn't see anything. The refs treat him poorly regardless of whether or not he does something to annoy them and thats on them. The refs should be called into question, not the player that they dick over night in and night out.

Can someone remind me what Avery did to attract this bias? He's not a violent or careless player on the ice. He was an idiot quite often with the Kings seasons ago but Bertuzzi almost killed someone and now, seasons later, he gets the benefit of the doubt, why doesn't Avery? Is it the "sloppy seconds?" Is that in this day and age more of a damning action than purposely breaking someone's neck, or like Cooke, ending the careers of several prominent athletes in your sport? I just honestly don't understand where this league wide hate for Avery comes from. What has he done?

I'm not saying he's a great player. If you want to get rid of the guy because he's not a good hockey player thats debatable but justified. I thought he was a pretty good playmaker last season and brought a lot of good energy on the forecheck when he wasn't getting penalties every second. But to say we should drop him because the refs don't like him is to blame the victim in this situation.

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08-21-2011, 11:46 AM
  #439
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So, what you're saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that we should let the refs decide who can and can't play in the league based on who they do or don't show strong bias against? If the refs show bias against a player "reasons says don't use him" so fire the guy - get him off the team - end his career based on what the refs think of him. Avery isn't "annoying" the refs - is he? How? What did he do last season for example that angered the refs so much that they were justified in showing a bias toward him? I didn't see anything. The refs treat him poorly regardless of whether or not he does something to annoy them and thats on them. The refs should be called into question, not the player that they dick over night in and night out.

Can someone remind me what Avery did to attract this bias? He's not a violent or careless player on the ice. He was an idiot quite often with the Kings seasons ago but Bertuzzi almost killed someone and now, seasons later, he gets the benefit of the doubt, why doesn't Avery? Is it the "sloppy seconds?" Is that in this day and age more of a damning action than purposely breaking someone's neck, or like Cooke, ending the careers of several prominent athletes in your sport? I just honestly don't understand where this league wide hate for Avery comes from. What has he done?

I'm not saying he's a great player. If you want to get rid of the guy because he's not a good hockey player thats debatable but justified. I thought he was a pretty good playmaker last season and brought a lot of good energy on the forecheck when he wasn't getting penalties every second. But to say we should drop him because the refs don't like him is to blame the victim in this situation.
In theory, if the refs are screwing Avery, you are right. However, what shold the Rangers do about it? Should they sue the league? Should they threaten to withdraw to the KHL?

Seriously, if as you and others maintain, that Avery is being treated the worst of all, what choice do the Rangers have but to sit him or get rid of him?

What is your solution to a problem you acknowledge exists?

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08-21-2011, 11:48 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by chip chipperson View Post
torts hated him before he was a ranger and at least doesnt like him now. he had to be censored when he gave his view of avery before we hired him. he doesnt mind sitting the guy because he doesnt view scratching avery as hurting the club that much.

oh so avery needs to be literally given the title of mvp for you to acknowledge his playoff ownage those 2 years. right, how is that not ignoring it?
Oh. Avery won the Chip Chipperson MVP awards. Twice, no less.

I really thought that perhaps he had been awarded these awards and you were setting me straight. I should have known better.

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08-21-2011, 05:43 PM
  #441
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Oh. Avery won the Chip Chipperson MVP awards. Twice, no less.

I really thought that perhaps he had been awarded these awards and you were setting me straight. I should have known better.
the chip chipperson mvp awards speak for themselves. very prestigious. and to be the only man to win this award (twice no less) in 11 years is something to behold.

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08-21-2011, 09:14 PM
  #442
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Avery is an unneccessary distraction on this team, criminal actions (or lack thereof) notwithstanding. He has been irrelevant for some time now, and his act had grown old before he arrived in New York the second time (if not prior to the first).

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08-21-2011, 09:30 PM
  #443
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Avery is an unneccessary distraction on this team, criminal actions (or lack thereof) notwithstanding. He has been irrelevant for some time now, and his act had grown old before he arrived in New York the second time (if not prior to the first).
if avery is a distarction, what is matt cooke? more recently, carlos zambrano. he is a distraction, please tell me how avery comes close to those guys. he isnt a distraction, period.

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08-22-2011, 01:24 AM
  #444
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if avery is a distarction, what is matt cooke? more recently, carlos zambrano. he is a distraction, please tell me how avery comes close to those guys. he isnt a distraction, period.
Just to make sure I understand your argument, let me rephrase it: Because there are distractions in the league who many would argue are bigger distractions than Sean Avery, he therefore cannot be a distraction himself. Is that what you're saying?

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08-22-2011, 03:14 AM
  #445
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Just to make sure I understand your argument, let me rephrase it: Because there are distractions in the league who many would argue are bigger distractions than Sean Avery, he therefore cannot be a distraction himself. Is that what you're saying?
no what im saying is your wrong.

hes not a distraction, period.

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08-22-2011, 05:26 AM
  #446
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no what im saying is your wrong.

hes not a distraction, period.
And what I'm saying is you're wrong. He is a distraction, period.

Isn't this fun?

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08-22-2011, 11:51 AM
  #447
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And what I'm saying is you're wrong. He is a distraction, period.

Isn't this fun?
Who is he distracting? Who looked distracted last year? Which teammate came out and complained about him?

"He's a distraction" is an abstract line of BULL that commentators and people "inside" the game starting using long ago to describe players who disrupted their locker rooms or put themselves before the team and it's grown into a popular, over used, meaningless piece of jargon that fans use to describe any player who stands out from the status quo in a way that they don't like. It has no meaning. It's not quantifiable. Fans only say it because they love to mimic the talk of the hockey insiders they wish they were as knowledgeable as.

So a bunch of armchair analysts sit here now and say, with conviction, that Avery is a distraction and needs to be gone, but I've seen no evidence of that (whether his game is still effective and he's going to contribute is a different argument) at all. His teammates seem to like him quite a bit. Meanwhile guys like Richards/Carter end up getting dealt, and we see that what the coaches and GMs and analysts actually mean when they say a player is a distraction is the stuff like players refusing to buy into an idea like dry island, becoming polarizing figures in the room or undermining an idea that the rest of the team is on board with. You think guys like Avery and Cooke are distractions, but I'm pretty sure most of the Rangers locker room loves having him there and I KNOW the Penguins players like having Cooke as a teammate.

So again, who is Avery distracting? You? Saying he's a distraction is like fighting with an invisible shield. It doesn't really exist. Distraction is a meaningless, unquantifiable label for a fan to use. The only people who can actually make it a tangible term and truly know whether he's a distraction are the players, coaching staff and GM, and typically, when a player IS a distraction, those people do what they can to remove the distraction from the team so they can refocus and succeed. I don't see anyone making efforts to get Avery off the team. I didn't see us using one of our buyout windows to get rid of him. I, so far, haven't read ANY suggestions from within the organization that Avery will be waived or sent down when the season starts. Why keep this distraction around?

People just love to hate the guy. It's really easy to see. They'll come up with any possible reason they can to justify why he deserves to be banished from the sport of hockey forever.

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08-22-2011, 01:20 PM
  #448
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Who is he distracting? Who looked distracted last year? Which teammate came out and complained about him?

"He's a distraction" is an abstract line of BULL that commentators and people "inside" the game starting using long ago to describe players who disrupted their locker rooms or put themselves before the team and it's grown into a popular, over used, meaningless piece of jargon that fans use to describe any player who stands out from the status quo in a way that they don't like. It has no meaning. It's not quantifiable. Fans only say it because they love to mimic the talk of the hockey insiders they wish they were as knowledgeable as.

So a bunch of armchair analysts sit here now and say, with conviction, that Avery is a distraction and needs to be gone, but I've seen no evidence of that (whether his game is still effective and he's going to contribute is a different argument) at all. His teammates seem to like him quite a bit. Meanwhile guys like Richards/Carter end up getting dealt, and we see that what the coaches and GMs and analysts actually mean when they say a player is a distraction is the stuff like players refusing to buy into an idea like dry island, becoming polarizing figures in the room or undermining an idea that the rest of the team is on board with. You think guys like Avery and Cooke are distractions, but I'm pretty sure most of the Rangers locker room loves having him there and I KNOW the Penguins players like having Cooke as a teammate.

So again, who is Avery distracting? You? Saying he's a distraction is like fighting with an invisible shield. It doesn't really exist. Distraction is a meaningless, unquantifiable label for a fan to use. The only people who can actually make it a tangible term and truly know whether he's a distraction are the players, coaching staff and GM, and typically, when a player IS a distraction, those people do what they can to remove the distraction from the team so they can refocus and succeed. I don't see anyone making efforts to get Avery off the team. I didn't see us using one of our buyout windows to get rid of him. I, so far, haven't read ANY suggestions from within the organization that Avery will be waived or sent down when the season starts. Why keep this distraction around?

People just love to hate the guy. It's really easy to see. They'll come up with any possible reason they can to justify why he deserves to be banished from the sport of hockey forever.
this is good. if i wasnt lazy i would have wrote something like this.

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08-22-2011, 02:16 PM
  #449
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Maybe he is a great guy to hang out with. What gets lost in these threads is that those of us who do not like him base our opinions on his effectiveness.
For a significant part of last season Avery was in our top 3 in assists with limited ice time and almost no time on the PP. He was snake bitten in terms of putting the puck in the net and that needs to change this year. But to state that his skills have deteriorated is just crazy. I hear why people do not like him; I don't get it but I hear it. However, on the ice he is still valuable and is still very good on the forecheck and has better offensive instincts that Brandon Dubinsky. That's right I said it.

My problem with his is that he is LESS of a pest than he used to be. I'd like to see us improve our power play and then ask him to drive opponents crazy and put us on that newly revamped PP. Such events will lead to wins and he is uniquely qualified to get our opponents to take undisciplined penalties.

I believe that after 20 games, our 4th line will be Avery, Rupp and Prust and everyone's golden boy, Brian Boyle will be watching upstairs with EC waiting for an injury.

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08-22-2011, 02:44 PM
  #450
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However, on the ice he is still valuable and is still very good on the forecheck and has better offensive instincts that Brandon Dubinsky. That's right I said it.

Bravo.

Just because you said it, doesnt make it any less ridiculous

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