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Old
08-06-2011, 05:39 PM
  #51
Beauner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Well really. Kunitz' bread and butter is his speed and ability to wreck people on the forecheck.

People who call this into question really need to start taking in games involving teams other than their own.
True that

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Old
08-06-2011, 05:45 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Hotel View Post
What about:

Kostitsyn
Trotter
pick

for

Kunitz
Tangradi

??
Done from and Habs fan pointy of view.

I doubt the Pens would do this though and they seem to value Tangradi quite highly (not unexpendable but they wouldn't trade for spare parts which is what Trotter is/)

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Old
08-06-2011, 05:52 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Are you insinuating that Kunitz doesn't hit hard?

Better ask Timonen about that.
Yes because destroying 5'10 200 lbs Timonen when he has his head down is the same as knocking 6'2 225lbs Lucic, right?

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Old
08-06-2011, 05:59 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Yes because destroying 5'10 200 lbs Timonen when he has his head down is the same as knocking 6'2 225lbs Lucic, right?
That was a single, glorious example of blowing a guy up. Bigger, smaller, whatever, Kunitz is a frequent, heavy hitter.

It's really not even worth arguing. Watch him play some time.

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Old
08-06-2011, 06:28 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
That was a single, glorious example of blowing a guy up. Bigger, smaller, whatever, Kunitz is a frequent, heavy hitter.

It's really not even worth arguing. Watch him play some time.
Chris Conner sent 6'5 220 lb Keith Aulie flying. I think we all know what this means. Chris Conner is the biggest hitter in the NHL.

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Old
08-06-2011, 06:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
In what world?
The world of 2 Stanley Cup Rings.

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Old
08-06-2011, 07:54 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
Chris Conner sent 6'5 220 lb Keith Aulie flying. I think we all know what this means. Chris Conner is the biggest hitter in the NHL.
Didn't he drop Hedman in the TB series too?

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Old
08-06-2011, 07:59 PM
  #58
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I'm sorry but I just don't think Kunitz is better than Kostitsyn. Frankly the bad vibe a bunch of the euro-haters in our fan base give the guy make him out to be horrible when he's in fact been a good player in a defensive minded system still putting up points and wrecking people with big hits.

Kunitz barely surpasses him with Crosby. Kostitsyn would smoke Kunitz numbers if he played with Crosby, which is why our team will likely re-sign Kostitsyn despite what all the downplayers and haters on here have to say about him. He's a good player, people expected him to be an 80pt guy when he's a 50pt guy. He put up good numbers last year being forced to play like 30 games with Gomez who was sucking. They had no chemistry together. If it weren't for that the guy could've had a break out season

Kunitz has the benefit of playing with the likes of Crosby, Malkin, all sorts of PP time Kostitsyn also does not get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattTheLeafsFan View Post
The world of 2 Stanley Cup Rings.
As a complementary winger. Plenty of players given the situation could have and would have done what he did. He's lucky if anything. It isn't like he's Crosby or Malkin who were basically the reason they won.

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Old
08-06-2011, 09:20 PM
  #59
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Aw... the classic "he plays next to Crosby and Malkin" rebuttal.

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Old
08-06-2011, 09:21 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'm sorry but I just don't think Kunitz is better than Kostitsyn. Frankly the bad vibe a bunch of the euro-haters in our fan base give the guy make him out to be horrible when he's in fact been a good player in a defensive minded system still putting up points and wrecking people with big hits.

Kunitz barely surpasses him with Crosby. Kostitsyn would smoke Kunitz numbers if he played with Crosby, which is why our team will likely re-sign Kostitsyn despite what all the downplayers and haters on here have to say about him. He's a good player, people expected him to be an 80pt guy when he's a 50pt guy. He put up good numbers last year being forced to play like 30 games with Gomez who was sucking. They had no chemistry together. If it weren't for that the guy could've had a break out season

Kunitz has the benefit of playing with the likes of Crosby, Malkin, all sorts of PP time Kostitsyn also does not get.



As a complementary winger. Plenty of players given the situation could have and would have done what he did. He's lucky if anything. It isn't like he's Crosby or Malkin who were basically the reason they won.
Kunitz has put up similar points in Pittsburgh as he did in Anaheim. I think it's been stated numerous times that the advantage of playing with Crosby is not entirely significant.

The Penguins PP sucks, so that's not a benefit to Kunitz.

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Old
08-06-2011, 10:26 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'm sorry but I just don't think Kunitz is better than Kostitsyn. Frankly the bad vibe a bunch of the euro-haters in our fan base give the guy make him out to be horrible when he's in fact been a good player in a defensive minded system still putting up points and wrecking people with big hits.

Kunitz barely surpasses him with Crosby. Kostitsyn would smoke Kunitz numbers if he played with Crosby, which is why our team will likely re-sign Kostitsyn despite what all the downplayers and haters on here have to say about him. He's a good player, people expected him to be an 80pt guy when he's a 50pt guy. He put up good numbers last year being forced to play like 30 games with Gomez who was sucking. They had no chemistry together. If it weren't for that the guy could've had a break out season

Kunitz has the benefit of playing with the likes of Crosby, Malkin, all sorts of PP time Kostitsyn also does not get.



As a complementary winger. Plenty of players given the situation could have and would have done what he did. He's lucky if anything. It isn't like he's Crosby or Malkin who were basically the reason they won.
You're aware Kunitz also played on the top line in Anaheim when they won the Cup, right?

Look up Kunitz's stats with Anaheim. They're still better than what Kostitsyn has put up in his career. Kostitsyn has surpassed 50 points once in his career, while Kunitz surpassed 50 points twice while with Anaheim, including a 60-point season (higher by far than any season Kostitsyn has posted).

Did Crosby and Malkin help his Anaheim stats, too?

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Old
08-06-2011, 11:03 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
You're aware Kunitz also played on the top line in Anaheim when they won the Cup, right?

Look up Kunitz's stats with Anaheim. They're still better than what Kostitsyn has put up in his career. Kostitsyn has surpassed 50 points once in his career, while Kunitz surpassed 50 points twice while with Anaheim, including a 60-point season (higher by far than any season Kostitsyn has posted).

Did Crosby and Malkin help his Anaheim stats, too?
No, but Andy McDonald and Teemu Selanne did.

He's a good player and he's slightly better than Kostitsyn, but I'm debating how much better. I don't think the margin is as significant as some Pittsburgh fans make it seem.

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Old
08-07-2011, 12:46 AM
  #63
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Ak has nothin on Kunitz,sorry.

I've seen too many Habs games on CBC to think hes anything more than a Russia with a good shot.
Kunitz plays the whole rink, plays bigger than his size, and has heart and grit. Aklol

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Old
08-07-2011, 01:51 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'm sorry but I just don't think Kunitz is better than Kostitsyn. Frankly the bad vibe a bunch of the euro-haters in our fan base give the guy make him out to be horrible when he's in fact been a good player in a defensive minded system still putting up points and wrecking people with big hits.

Kunitz barely surpasses him with Crosby. Kostitsyn would smoke Kunitz numbers if he played with Crosby, which is why our team will likely re-sign Kostitsyn despite what all the downplayers and haters on here have to say about him. He's a good player, people expected him to be an 80pt guy when he's a 50pt guy. He put up good numbers last year being forced to play like 30 games with Gomez who was sucking. They had no chemistry together. If it weren't for that the guy could've had a break out season

Kunitz has the benefit of playing with the likes of Crosby, Malkin, all sorts of PP time Kostitsyn also does not get.



As a complementary winger. Plenty of players given the situation could have and would have done what he did. He's lucky if anything. It isn't like he's Crosby or Malkin who were basically the reason they won.
Kostitsyn is heavily hated upon due to who he was drafted ahead of and his horrendous inconsistency. He was billed to be a potential star, and has not even sniffed those expectations. His only good season was when Kovalev decided to show up for an entire year and fed him points. Before and after, he remains the old AK we know and begrudgingly love, so to speak. You are intentionally neglecting where his perceived ceiling was to support the argument AK is more when he is essentially a bust given his position relevant to who went after him. Seriously...

Carter, Brown, Seabrook, Parise, Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards, Perry

Just astonishing how poorly our scouting team was. In any case, Kostitsyn is a commentary player now, and while I say he has the better shot and scoring capability, Kunitz blows him away in most everything else. Devastating Lucic was nice but somewhat uncommon.

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Old
08-07-2011, 07:25 AM
  #65
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I'd save this deal for pre-deadline time-frame, conditional on various factors falling into place, such as: AK still not quite cementing himself as a core player for the Habs (he's still a useful player as a 20/20 guy, just not "core"), Habs trending out of the playoff race, Pens looking to boost scoring for a playoff drive, Tangradi not having had any breakthrough of note for the Pens...

... if all of that stuff is aligning in February, then the Habs may indeed be looking to move AK for a prospect before he goes UFA. Definitely not a deal the team is in a position to consider right now, though.

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Old
08-07-2011, 07:38 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I'd save this deal for pre-deadline time-frame, conditional on various factors falling into place, such as: AK still not quite cementing himself as a core player for the Habs (he's still a useful player as a 20/20 guy, just not "core"), Habs trending out of the playoff race, Pens looking to boost scoring for a playoff drive, Tangradi not having had any breakthrough of note for the Pens...

... if all of that stuff is aligning in February, then the Habs may indeed be looking to move AK for a prospect before he goes UFA. Definitely not a deal the team is in a position to consider right now, though.
Even if all of that were true I just don't see the Pens trading Tangradi for a potential rental.

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Old
08-07-2011, 08:11 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
You're aware Kunitz also played on the top line in Anaheim when they won the Cup, right?

Look up Kunitz's stats with Anaheim. They're still better than what Kostitsyn has put up in his career. Kostitsyn has surpassed 50 points once in his career, while Kunitz surpassed 50 points twice while with Anaheim, including a 60-point season (higher by far than any season Kostitsyn has posted).

Did Crosby and Malkin help his Anaheim stats, too?
Again, very poor argument. All of those Kunitz seasons were after he turned 26. Kostitsyn just turned 26. The last 4 years, Kostitsyn has overed 49pts per 82 games. Between 22 and 26, Kunitz was a minor leaguer who did little during his few callups. BTW Kunitz has only averaged about 4pts per 82 games over the same 4 year stretch, despite being at his peak age of 26 to 31.

At least compare apples to apples if you're going to use offense as a point of argument. At the same age, Kostitsyn is significantly better than Kunitz, and given their respective ages, there's a much better chance for Kostitsyn to improve and Kunitz to regress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Even besides the contentious assertion that Kostitsyn is even ahead of where Kunitz was as a rookie, this isn't about potential, this about who is better right now. And Kunitz absolutely is.
I never said Kostitsyn was better right now. Personally I think it's arguable. My point was that any offensive edge Kunitz has had has to be taken into context given their ages and when they put up those numbers.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 08-07-2011 at 08:16 AM.
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Old
08-07-2011, 08:32 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Again, very poor argument. All of those Kunitz seasons were after he turned 26. Kostitsyn just turned 26.
You're arguing AK's potential, something that isn't even being discussed.

Why are you doing that?

Quote:
At least compare apples to apples if you're going to use offense as a point of argument. At the same age, Kostitsyn is significantly better than Kunitz, and given their respective ages, there's a much better chance for Kostitsyn to improve and Kunitz to regress.
Why are you doing that?

Quote:
I never said Kostitsyn was better right now. Personally I think it's arguable.
Not from any statistical standpoint.

Quote:
My point was that any offensive edge Kunitz has had has to be taken into context given their ages and when they put up those numbers.
Why are you doing that?

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08-07-2011, 08:42 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
You're arguing AK's potential, something that isn't even being discussed.

Why are you doing that?

Why are you doing that?

Not from any statistical standpoint.

Why are you doing that?
It's a trade proposal thread on the trade board. Potential has to be factored in these threads.

Put Kostitsyn on Crosby's wing and he would put up better numbers than Kunitz. Using past offensive accomplishments by an older Kunitz doesn't mean he's capable of better numbers right now, all things being equal.

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08-07-2011, 08:46 AM
  #70
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This is HF Boards. Potential trumps anything and everything!

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08-07-2011, 08:48 AM
  #71
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This is HF Boards. Potential trumps anything and everything!
Okay, you're right, potential is overrated. So Pittsburgh should trade Depres to the Habs for Spacek, since Spacek is the better NHL player right now.

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08-07-2011, 08:49 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
It's a trade proposal thread on the trade board. Potential has to be factored in these threads.

Put Kostitsyn on Crosby's wing and he would put up better numbers than Kunitz. Using past offensive accomplishments by an older Kunitz doesn't mean he's capable of better numbers right now, all things being equal.
Not in the discussion we were having. Follow the posts back to le sean on Page 1.

The argument was strictly about who the better player was. Any reference to potential is completely beside the point in the context of this discussion.

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08-07-2011, 09:16 AM
  #73
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I think i'd take Kunitz over Kostitsyn if i disregard the age factor.

I, however, disagree with the guy who said habs fans are kidding themselves if they think Kunitz wouldnt crack the habs top 6 wingers.

Assuming Pacioretty doesnt slow down coming back the Chara incident, Kunitz doesnt play in the top 6 in Montreal, even a Kostitsyn less Montreal team.
He doesnt play over Cammalleri - Gionta - Cole or as state Pacioretty.

As state, regardless of age, i'd take Kunitz on the habs over Kostitsyn, but that would be for the 3rd line.

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08-07-2011, 09:24 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Anksun View Post
I think i'd take Kunitz over Kostitsyn if i disregard the age factor.

I, however, disagree with the guy who said habs fans are kidding themselves if they think Kunitz wouldnt crack the habs top 6 wingers.

Assuming Pacioretty doesnt slow down coming back the Chara incident, Kunitz doesnt play in the top 6 in Montreal, even a Kostitsyn less Montreal team.
He doesnt play over Cammalleri - Gionta - Cole or as state Pacioretty.

As state, regardless of age, i'd take Kunitz on the habs over Kostitsyn, but that would be for the 3rd line.
I would be ambivalent in having to choose between AK and Kunitz. I think i would prefer Kunitz if it is for a 3rd line role and AK for a top-6 role. Either way AK and Kunitz are very close in value IMO. Ironically AK may be better suited to playing for the Pens as Crosby and Malkin have the ability to unlock his talent/potential. Meanwhile Kunitz would do well for the Habs as he is a consistent performer.

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08-07-2011, 09:37 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anksun View Post
I think i'd take Kunitz over Kostitsyn if i disregard the age factor.

I, however, disagree with the guy who said habs fans are kidding themselves if they think Kunitz wouldnt crack the habs top 6 wingers.

Assuming Pacioretty doesnt slow down coming back the Chara incident, Kunitz doesnt play in the top 6 in Montreal, even a Kostitsyn less Montreal team.
He doesnt play over Cammalleri - Gionta - Cole or as state Pacioretty.

As state, regardless of age, i'd take Kunitz on the habs over Kostitsyn, but that would be for the 3rd line.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Cole has not been better than Kunitz since 2008.

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