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Ryan Kesler vs. Jason Spezza

View Poll Results: Who is better?
Ryan Kesler 144 46.91%
Jason Spezza 143 46.58%
too close to call 20 6.51%
Voters: 307. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-08-2011, 12:45 PM
  #101
ChiHawk21
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Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
I would take Spezza, but I think Kesler is really underrated.

He's a stud and would be a franchise player like Staal, Nash or Spezza if he didn't play on the 2nd line behind the Sedins.

40+ goals and 70+ points as a #2 center is ridiculous. As a #1 center with talented linemates, he could potentially put up 45-50 goals and 90-100 points.
but then he would have to play against the other teams top shutdown pairing and line...so then he would be back at 70 pts.

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Old
08-08-2011, 01:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by DG View Post
Exactly. This is what I'm not really getting. It can't be both.



But by contrast, was almost completely useless offensively vs. Toews an co.
And Toews was completely useless offensively vs. Kesler and co.

When Kesler was tasked with shutting down Toews, he did it. When he was tasked with scoring, against Weber no less, he did it. he can do anything asked of him. Right now, Spezza can only do the scoring part effectively. You won't see him assigned with shutting down top lines. Kesler will do that. That's why I take him.

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08-08-2011, 01:19 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Stanchion for MVP View Post
And Toews was completely useless offensively vs. Kesler and co.

When Kesler was tasked with shutting down Toews, he did it. When he was tasked with scoring, against Weber no less, he did it. he can do anything asked of him. Right now, Spezza can only do the scoring part effectively. You won't see him assigned with shutting down top lines. Kesler will do that. That's why I take him.
For the record, I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense to choose Kesler. I think both players have their merits but I don't think Spezza's are being recognized in this thread as much as Kesler's.

I just think that Kesler benefits a lot from his spot on the depth chart. I won't take anything away from his performance against the Preds, because it was excellent, but I don't think that characterizes his level of play all the time. It is a small sample size. Regularly, he gets PP time with the Sedins and faces the other team's secondary defensive squads. I remember someone also posted that this past year that something like 75% of his goals were against non-playoff teams.

Obviously this is all speculation, but I don't see him being as effective as a top line player. In other words, imo he is not a 41 goal, 70 point scorer when he is the 1st line centre (with no Sedins to buffer him) and his line is Butler-Kesler-Greening.


Last edited by DG: 08-08-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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Old
08-08-2011, 01:44 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by DG View Post
For the record, I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense to choose Kesler. I think both players have their merits and I don't think Spezza's are being recognized in this thread as much as Kesler's.

I just think that Kesler benefits a lot from his spot on the depth chart. I won't take anything away from his performance against the Preds, because it was excellent, but I don't think that characterizes his level of play all the time. It is a small sample size. Regularly, he gets PP time with the Sedins and faces the other team's secondary defensive squads. I remember someone also posted last year that something like 75% of his goals were against non-playoff teams.

Obviously this is all speculation, but I don't see him being as effective as a top line player.

NHL.com Splits:

Kesler

38 goals, 61 points in 54 wins; 3 goals, 9 points in 28 losses

33 goals, 62 points vs the 16 non-playoff teams in 47 games, 14.2 ES TOI/G, 3.3 PP, 2.6 SH.
5 goals, 26 points vs the 16 playoff teams in 35 games, 14.5 ES, 4 PP, 2.5 SH.

It's possible that bad teams, with limited ability, chose to focus on the Sedins, letting Kesler run rampant, while good teams could afford to send good players against both units, limiting Kesler's production severely. Perhaps Kesler was focusing more on shut down and thus could not produce, but given his non-playoff team production, you'd figure they'd use him in an offensive role.


Compare to D. Sedin
30 goals, 78 points in 54 wins; 11 goals, 26 points in 28 losses (still not sparkling, but almost a PPG).

20 goals, 54 points vs the 16 non-playoff teams in 47 games, 14.7 ES, 3.3 PP, 0.1 SH
21 goals, 50 points vs the 16 playoff teams in 35 games, 15 ES, 4 PP, 0.1 SH


Compared to Kesler who did pretty poorly vs good teams, Sedin actually got better. Perhaps teams over-compensated on Kesler, letting Sedin do a bit better than usual.

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Old
08-08-2011, 01:46 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
NHL.com Splits:

Kesler

38 goals, 61 points in 54 wins; 3 goals, 9 points in 28 losses

33 goals, 62 points vs the 16 non-playoff teams in 47 games, 14.2 ES TOI/G, 3.3 PP, 2.6 SH.
5 goals, 26 points vs the 16 playoff teams in 35 games, 14.5 ES, 4 PP, 2.5 SH.

It's possible that bad teams, with limited ability, chose to focus on the Sedins, letting Kesler run rampant, while good teams could afford to send good players against both units, limiting Kesler's production severely. Perhaps Kesler was focusing more on shut down and thus could not produce, but given his non-playoff team production, you'd figure they'd use him in an offensive role.


Compare to D. Sedin
30 goals, 78 points in 54 wins; 11 goals, 26 points in 28 losses (still not sparkling, but almost a PPG).

20 goals, 54 points vs the 16 non-playoff teams in 47 games, 14.7 ES, 3.3 PP, 0.1 SH
21 goals, 50 points vs the 16 playoff teams in 35 games, 15 ES, 4 PP, 0.1 SH


Compared to Kesler who did pretty poorly vs good teams, Sedin actually got better. Perhaps teams over-compensated on Kesler, letting Sedin do a bit better than usual.
Thank you sir. I should just keep throwing out hypotheticals and letting you find the stats for me.

Much appreciated.

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08-08-2011, 01:48 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DG View Post
Thank you sir. I should just keep throwing out hyoptheticals and letting you find the stats for me.

Much appreciated.
Please do, hockey stats are one of my favourite things

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Old
08-08-2011, 02:49 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
NHL.com Splits:

Kesler

38 goals, 61 points in 54 wins; 3 goals, 9 points in 28 losses

33 goals, 62 points vs the 16 non-playoff teams in 47 games, 14.2 ES TOI/G, 3.3 PP, 2.6 SH.
5 goals, 26 points vs the 16 playoff teams in 35 games, 14.5 ES, 4 PP, 2.5 SH.

It's possible that bad teams, with limited ability, chose to focus on the Sedins, letting Kesler run rampant, while good teams could afford to send good players against both units, limiting Kesler's production severely. Perhaps Kesler was focusing more on shut down and thus could not produce, but given his non-playoff team production, you'd figure they'd use him in an offensive role.


Compare to D. Sedin
30 goals, 78 points in 54 wins; 11 goals, 26 points in 28 losses (still not sparkling, but almost a PPG).

20 goals, 54 points vs the 16 non-playoff teams in 47 games, 14.7 ES, 3.3 PP, 0.1 SH
21 goals, 50 points vs the 16 playoff teams in 35 games, 15 ES, 4 PP, 0.1 SH


Compared to Kesler who did pretty poorly vs good teams, Sedin actually got better. Perhaps teams over-compensated on Kesler, letting Sedin do a bit better than usual.
When Canucks played against top teams (playoff teams) Kesler would mainly be a shutdown guy which is why his stats take a hit

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Old
08-08-2011, 02:54 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Canuckfan4Life2 View Post
When Canucks played against top teams (playoff teams) Kesler would mainly be a shutdown guy which is why his stats take a hit
still 5 goals down from 33? come on.

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Old
08-08-2011, 03:43 PM
  #109
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Just like to throw in that Spezza put up 33 points in the last 30 games of this season while playing with Colin Greening, Bobby Butler, and Eric Condra as his line mates.
Meaningless.

You are going to get points when you play hockey. Josh Bailey got points. Martin Erat got points. You need to look at his points under a narrower lens. In a lot of games Spezza will pad his stats, for example a four-point game against Philly, another one against Islanders and so on...then he'll produce nothing...so at best what you have is a player that will produce against teams already in "slow down mode" having made the playoffs or that will pad his stats against weak sisters but when the game is 0-0...where is he?

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Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
LOL @ this thread.

I've given up on trying to defend Spezza. He's going though what Yzerman did in the early/mid 90's. Which is shedding the the idea of being a one-dimensional point producer into becoming a solid 2-way player.
When I bump this thread 2-3 years down the road, you guys are going to look stupid.

A massive massive proof of "What have you done for me lately" mentality on hfboards.
Yzerman carried his team to several Cups, played the Olympics on a broken leg and was captain of an Original Six franchise for twenty straight years.

When Spezza carries his team to several cups, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza gets nominated for a Selke trophy, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza plays injured, AT ALL, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza is the heart and soul of an Olympic squad, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza bodies people off the puck, when he plays DIRTY and when you see scars on his face and he puts his face in front of pucks, we'll look stupid.

But 2-3 years from now Spezza will have scored a bunch of points no one will remember and...not much else.

Still waiting for Spezza to become a WARRIOR, still waiting for Spezza to play injured, still waiting for Spezza to strip pucks from everyone he comes near, to use that body to muscle people off the puck, to block shots and to speed back into his own zone play after play after play.

Ryan Kesler does these things. Kesler is heart and soul, Kesler is tough, Kesler plays both ends of the ice and agitates as needed.

Spezza does not.

That's why Spezza is a disappointment, until further notice where he gets it done and becomes feared by his opponents, instead of a stat-padding cream puff.

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Old
08-08-2011, 04:50 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Meaningless.

You are going to get points when you play hockey. Josh Bailey got points. Martin Erat got points. You need to look at his points under a narrower lens. In a lot of games Spezza will pad his stats, for example a four-point game against Philly, another one against Islanders and so on...then he'll produce nothing...so at best what you have is a player that will produce against teams already in "slow down mode" having made the playoffs or that will pad his stats against weak sisters but when the game is 0-0...where is he?
What the hell are these comparisons supposed to prove? Josh Bailey has 88 career NHL points. Martin Erat never scored more than 57 points in a season. Spezza has played over 500 career games and is a point-per-game player. It's blatantly obvious that you don't like Spezza's game, but to discout 532 points in 526 career games and scoring 33 points in 30 games with rookies fresh out of the AHL as "you're going to get points when you play hockey" is absurd.

Also, if you're going to suggest that Spezza isn't as good because he pads his stats against weak teams (like Philly? ), then I'd suggest you take another look at Sensfanman's breakdown of Kesler's stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Yzerman carried his team to several Cups, played the Olympics on a broken leg and was captain of an Original Six franchise for twenty straight years.

When Spezza carries his team to several cups, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza gets nominated for a Selke trophy, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza plays injured, AT ALL, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza is the heart and soul of an Olympic squad, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza bodies people off the puck, when he plays DIRTY and when you see scars on his face and he puts his face in front of pucks, we'll look stupid.

But 2-3 years from now Spezza will have scored a bunch of points no one will remember and...not much else.

Still waiting for Spezza to become a WARRIOR, still waiting for Spezza to play injured, still waiting for Spezza to strip pucks from everyone he comes near, to use that body to muscle people off the puck, to block shots and to speed back into his own zone play after play after play.

Ryan Kesler does these things. Kesler is heart and soul, Kesler is tough, Kesler plays both ends of the ice and agitates as needed.

Spezza does not.

That's why Spezza is a disappointment, until further notice where he gets it done and becomes feared by his opponents, instead of a stat-padding cream puff.
Let's take a look at what you said in the Kovalev thread on the Sens board:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Kovy is one of the few that played here that was interesting on and off the ice. (...)

He's also right about the media; they zone in on talented players and run them out of town while grinders are adulated.
So it's OK that Kovalev never played dirty, never showed any heart and never played hurt, but Spezza's a "stat-padding cream puff" because he doesn't play as tough as Kesler? I'm all for adulating grinders, but zoning in on a talented player because he doesn't play the same style as one of the greatest players of the last two decades (Yzerman, not Kesler) is just wrong.

For some reason, I doubt you were saying "you're going to get points when you play hockey" when Spezza was dragging our team to the Stanley Cup Finals with Alfie and Heatley in 2007. How about we just accept Spezza for what he is: an immensely talented centre on the offensive end, who is finally starting to develop as a leader and is rounding into shape as a reliable defensive presence.


Last edited by Bueller: 08-08-2011 at 05:04 PM.
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Old
08-08-2011, 05:01 PM
  #111
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A year or 2 ago it would have been closer, but now - it's pretty cut n' dry.

KESLER.

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08-08-2011, 05:06 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Meaningless.

You are going to get points when you play hockey. Josh Bailey got points. Martin Erat got points. You need to look at his points under a narrower lens. In a lot of games Spezza will pad his stats, for example a four-point game against Philly, another one against Islanders and so on...then he'll produce nothing...so at best what you have is a player that will produce against teams already in "slow down mode" having made the playoffs or that will pad his stats against weak sisters but when the game is 0-0...where is he?



Yzerman carried his team to several Cups, played the Olympics on a broken leg and was captain of an Original Six franchise for twenty straight years.

When Spezza carries his team to several cups, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza gets nominated for a Selke trophy, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza plays injured, AT ALL, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza is the heart and soul of an Olympic squad, we'll look stupid.
When Spezza bodies people off the puck, when he plays DIRTY and when you see scars on his face and he puts his face in front of pucks, we'll look stupid.

But 2-3 years from now Spezza will have scored a bunch of points no one will remember and...not much else.

Still waiting for Spezza to become a WARRIOR, still waiting for Spezza to play injured, still waiting for Spezza to strip pucks from everyone he comes near, to use that body to muscle people off the puck, to block shots and to speed back into his own zone play after play after play.

Ryan Kesler does these things. Kesler is heart and soul, Kesler is tough, Kesler plays both ends of the ice and agitates as needed.

Spezza does not.

That's why Spezza is a disappointment, until further notice where he gets it done and becomes feared by his opponents, instead of a stat-padding cream puff.
Doesn't Spezza have a really bad back that might never be fully healed? Hence why he misses so many games with a back problem that now one knows how serious it is.

Didn't it take Yzerman a few years to become the defensive force? Because he sure wasn't playing very good D when he scored 155 points. Or when he was cut from Canada for not playing solid D. Or had the C withheld from him for not playing solid D.

Spezza seems to go into corners when I watch him play. He isn't a physical force... but he isn't a slouch either. No first line center is going to risk blocking shots like the A-train does because your best centers are too valuable. Especially when your number two would be... Fisher?... Regin? Winchester? Smith? um ya... I can see why he is worth more being playing then being hurt.

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Old
08-08-2011, 05:49 PM
  #113
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Doesn't Spezza have a really bad back that might never be fully healed? Hence why he misses so many games with a back problem that now one knows how serious it is.

Didn't it take Yzerman a few years to become the defensive force? Because he sure wasn't playing very good D when he scored 155 points. Or when he was cut from Canada for not playing solid D. Or had the C withheld from him for not playing solid D.

Spezza seems to go into corners when I watch him play. He isn't a physical force... but he isn't a slouch either. No first line center is going to risk blocking shots like the A-train does because your best centers are too valuable. Especially when your number two would be... Fisher?... Regin? Winchester? Smith? um ya... I can see why he is worth more being playing then being hurt.
That was Alfie with the bad back. Spezza has had back issues before but his injury this year was not related.

Also I can't tell if you think Volchenkov and Fisher still play for the Sens >_>

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08-08-2011, 06:26 PM
  #114
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Ducks 2007 - 2 scoring lines and a monster checking line vs Ottawa - 1 scoring line during playoffs

Vancouver 2011 - 1 line scoring goals during playoffs vs a well balanced boston team

Until they both win a stanley cup, ultimately neither one can be considered a whole rounded player.

Kesler - Scoring, Defense, Hard Work Cons: Diver, Leadership and Attitude

Spezza - Scoring, Leadership, Makes others better Cons: Defense and Consistency (Durbaility as well)

Sums up most of the thread......apples vs oranges people, both carried teams to stanley cup finals and both failed......

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Old
08-08-2011, 06:45 PM
  #115
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As a Vancouver fan, I reluctantly pick Kesler.

Spezza is a great player, but he's fallen off these past few years. His PPG average is only slightly higher than Kesler's is, and Kesler has quite a few more goals. Kesler's better FO% (not that Spezza's a slouch) and Selke level defensive play make him the clear cut answer.

Now, if Spezza can regain his ~90 point form this would be a much closer poll. As of now, Kesler runs away with this.

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08-08-2011, 06:59 PM
  #116
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Only someone clueless would claim, kesler to be a second liner. Yeah, a player who has been top 10 in scoring for the past two seasons (top 5 in goal scoring and in playoffs amongst players), selke winner, makes his inconsisent second/third line linemates better top 10 in faceoffs, very gritty, and a solid playmaker ,not only that but he'd be on most team's top line especially since he can play C/RW positions (very versatile) but apparently he's nothing more than second liner.. Idiots...

In 09/10 kesler's 12 goals of 23 came against playoffs, so don't believe in this "he beats on weaker defensive teams, nonsense". He clearly can take over games when he's healthy especially against one of the better defensive teams in nashville, and make suter-weber look like amatuers. Was also our best forward in chicago, and scored clutch goals all around in the playoffs.

Kesler gets the most toughest matchups for the canucks and is on the top PP, Pk, 5-3 situations and in the last dying minutes. He is relied more than the sedins, as you can see when he has the most TOI out of any canuck forward on a game to game basis.

Spezza is getting overrated in this thread, and is apparently on a another level offensively despite haven't proven it.

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08-08-2011, 07:04 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
but then he would have to play against the other teams top shutdown pairing and line...so then he would be back at 70 pts.
Considering he has proven he can play against top shutdown pairing, and with first line linemates to help, I don't see how he can revert back to 73/75 points. He'd easily be a over PPG guy, especially with his skill set.

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08-08-2011, 07:15 PM
  #118
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The guy played fine with 2 AHLers to end the season. 33 points in the final 30 games with Bobby Butler and Colin Greening for much of it.
exactly, but if we want to see what the real Jason Spezza can do, he's going to need a cast to play with. He would fetch a Kings Ransom in futures for a rebuilding Ottawa team.

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08-08-2011, 08:01 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Sayonara77 View Post
Spezza is getting overrated in this thread, and is apparently on a another level offensively despite haven't proven it.


What would you consider proof?

PPG in the playoffs in his career and led the playoffs in scoring in '07. 456 points in 415 games in the regular season = 1.10 PPG since the lockout.

Yet, somehow in your world, Kesler is a proven first liner despite never having proven it in your words. Apparently one season of 41 goals and two 70+ point seasons is proven but Spezza isn't.

For what it's worth (nothing to you it would seem), Kesler's best season is Spezza's worst since the lockout.

And you're calling everyone idiots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayonara77 View Post
Considering he has proven he can play against top shutdown pairing, and with first line linemates to help, I don't see how he can revert back to 73/75 points. He'd easily be a over PPG guy, especially with his skill set.
Obviously... because for Kesler, no proof is needed. I guess Spezza having the benefit of the Canucks depth wouldn't easily be over a PPG though since he hasn't proven it.

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08-08-2011, 08:11 PM
  #120
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What would you consider proof?

PPG in the playoffs in his career and led the playoffs in scoring in '07. 456 points in 415 games in the regular season = 1.10 PPG since the lockout.

Yet, somehow in your world, Kesler is a proven first liner despite never having proven it in your words. Apparently one season of 41 goals and two 70+ point seasons is proven but Spezza isn't.

For what it's worth (nothing to you it would seem), Kesler's best season is Spezza's worst since the lockout.

And you're calling everyone idiots.



Obviously... because for Kesler, no proof is needed. I guess Spezza having the benefit of the Canucks depth wouldn't easily be over a PPG though since he hasn't proven it.


You basically have no idea what I was talking about nor do you realize what my intent is. I didn't even say spezza isn't a proven first liner because he certainly is. My gripe is with people (mostly sens fans) who apparently believe spezza to be another level especially when that isn't the case, sorry but putting 15+more points three years ago, while playing with much better linemates doesn't exactly put him on another level.

Yeah put words in my mouth or twist my post all round to justify your argument. Way to completely ignore what I said in regards to my explaination of kesler being a legit first liner especially with a player who has been improving overall versus a guy who has been improving his defensive game.

and yes anyone who calls kesler a second liner is an idiot. Would like to see how many points in games did kesler garnerered when put in a top 6 role.

Yeah, a player who has been top 10 in scoring for the past two seasons (top 5 in goal scoring and in playoffs amongst players), selke winner, makes his inconsisent second/third line linemates better top 10 in faceoffs, very gritty, and a solid playmaker ,not only that but he'd be on most team's top line especially since he can play C/RW positions (very versatile)

He clearly can take over games when he's healthy especially against one of the better defensive teams in nashville, and make suter-weber look like amatuers. Was also our best forward in chicago, and scored clutch goals all around in the playoffs.

Kesler gets the most toughest matchups for the canucks and is on the top PP, Pk, 5-3 situations and in the last dying minutes. He is relied more than the sedins, as you can see when he has the most TOI out of any canuck forward on a game to game basis.


The bolded post isn't proof enough, eh?


Last edited by Sayonara77: 08-08-2011 at 08:18 PM.
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Old
08-08-2011, 08:15 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
LOL @ this thread.

I've given up on trying to defend Spezza. He's going though what Yzerman did in the early/mid 90's. Which is shedding the the idea of being a one-dimensional point producer into becoming a solid 2-way player. He's already a main PKer on the sens (which was running at 92% since acquiring Anderson), while still maintaining decent numbers with AHL linemates. But you can shout pizza line and lazy and stick your head in the sand if you want, us Sens fans know who Spezza is and how important he will be in the coming years as a premiere franchise player in the league, something that Kesler isin't.

When I bump this thread 2-3 years down the road, you guys are going to look stupid.

A massive massive proof of "What have you done for me lately" mentality on hfboards.

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08-08-2011, 08:18 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by DG View Post
Kesler wouldn't. And remind me how well he has done in the playoffs vs. Toews, Keith and Seabrook again?
Did you just say Kesler doesn't play against the other teams' top players, and then in the very next sentence ask how he fared against Chicago's best?

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08-08-2011, 08:21 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by CF94 View Post
Did you just say Kesler doesn't play against the other teams' top players, and then in the very next sentence ask how he fared against Chicago's best?
Yes I did. He usually doesn't. But he fared badly in that small sample size.

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Originally Posted by Sayonara77 View Post
The bolded post isn't proof enough, eh?
No, it's your opinion. Especially if Spezza proving it for 5 years isn't proof but Kesler doing it for 2 is.

My post wasn't to show that Spezza is a first liner, it's to show that he is at another level offensively. When Kesler sniffs the PPG level, or continues his current pace for more than 2 years, he might be at his level offensively. But until then, yes, Spezza is at another level.

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08-08-2011, 08:23 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by DG View Post
Yes I did. He usually doesn't. But he fared badly in that small sample size.
Yeah if you look at the stats sheet and not watch the actual games. Heck, 4 assists in 7 games isn't all that bad especially when his actual assignment was to shut down toews, which he did admirably while being mostly our best player in all our wins.

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08-08-2011, 10:40 PM
  #125
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http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...me_active.html

1. Sidney Crosby 1.388
2. Alex Ovechkin 1.293
3. Peter Forsberg 1.250
4. Teemu Selanne 1.064
5. Dany Heatley 1.030
6. Jason Spezza 1.011
7. Joe Thornton 1.006
8. Ilya Kovalchuk 1.000
9. Pavel Datsyuk 0.983
10. Daniel Alfredsson 0.969

Top 5 in PPG for active players (I don't count Forsberg). Is he the only one on the list who hasn't taken his offensive game to "the next level"?

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