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Another NSH - EDM Proposal!

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Old
08-08-2011, 05:21 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Is Suter a pending UFA or just RFA?

If he's a pending UFA, assuming both he and Hemsky are healthy part way through the year, would Hemsky and a 2nd or 3rd OR Hemsky and a pretty good defensive prospect like Jeremie Blain or Alex Plante get it done?

Addresses Edmonton's need for D and Nashville's need for a star offensive forward...both of whom would be UFAs at the end of the year.

Or it could be something like Hemsky and Smid/Peckham for Suter and O'Reilly?

If it were value for value, I'd just trade Hemsky and maybe a 4th or 5th round pick for Suter. They're both among the best in the league at their positions, though Suter's more coveted, and is a bit younger (if I recall properly).

But Hemsky's got some injury history, and although he should be fully recovered coming into this season after 3-4 seasons of constant shoulder problems (two fresh surgeries on his shoulders, one last year, one this year, though), the risk is there. So Edmonton pays a bit more for part of a season and exclusive rights to try to re-sign Suter.
He has some injury issues? Define some? Seems to me he has many injury issues and not I don't think that would be enough to get Suter.

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Old
08-08-2011, 05:23 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by t0nedeff View Post
How many high profile players signed with the Stanley Cup finalists this off season. Ohh. How comeBrad Richards didn't want to join such a dominating team like the Vancouver Canucks?
We aren't in need of top players, unlike the Oilers (as seen in this thread).

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Nash and Giroux aren't RW's.

Nash is a natural LW, although has played the RS and Giroux is a C.
Then why is Nash listed as a right winger on the majority of sports sites? (and both the NHL and Blue Jackets websites)

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Old
08-08-2011, 05:25 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
OK? If I was Malhotra I'd sign on a contender like Vancouver ahead of a bottom feeder like Edmonton also. Once again, you use a terrible example.

This is a whole new year and people saw how exciting the Oilers looked this year.

BTW, what the hell does it matter that the Oilers didn't sign any superstars? They also weren't going after any so you can't really use that line.

I have not heard one comment or sign from any Oilers player right now that doesn't enjoy playing here, and there are also a lot more that leave the organization on a positive note than a negative one.
It is ultra, ultra rare that a player comments that he doesn't enjoy playing for the team he is in. It is part of the code that you just suck it up until you are a free agent whether you like it or not.

And as for the whole superstars are dying to go to Edmonton, Dany Heatley still hasn't returned your call.

As for this team being a "future destination", lots of top end draft picks does not make you a lock for the cup, let alone making the playoffs. Look at Atlanta, in back to back years they drafted Heatley and Kovalchuk, and they turned out about as good as you can expect any prospect to and they did nothing with all the talent.

Look I like Edmonton as a city, but you need to be realistic about it, it isn't a destination for any top flight players right now, potential or not.

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08-08-2011, 05:32 PM
  #54
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Really? You live in OTTAWA and you're bashing Edmonton? I've lived in Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Victoria, Ottawa and Toronto in this country and the worst of all of them, by quite a long shot, was Ottawa.

Winning brings talent. You think Detroit and Pittsburgh are world class destinations? Hardly.

Nor are Buffalo or Newark, but they all do just fine attracting top level talent.

By the way, over the past 5 years or so, we've done fine attracting solid talent (at least at the time) to sign in Edmonton: Roloson, Sykora, Tjarnqvist, Tarnstrom, Souray, Comrie and Foster were all signed at a time when Edmonton was not a playoff team. They were all difference-makers on their previous teams and chose to sign in Edmonton. No, we're not signing Hossa, Kovalchuk, Richards, etc. but we're doing just fine, especially as a losing team in a small(er) city.

You'll see who wants to play in Edmonton when this team's winning playoff rounds in the next few years vs. who wants to play in Ottawa when you guys are languishing in a rebuild.

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08-08-2011, 05:32 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryno View Post
OP's offer: Gagner, Smid, Omark, which you deemed "really, realy bad"

Your Offer: Gagner, Smid, 2nd, conditional 1st or conditional 3rd

So, essentially, the difference is the conditional pick that magically turns a "really, really bad offer" into an offer that's completely passable...Abracadabra!

I really didn't think I'd have to spell this out...
You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Either Suter wouldn't resign (so its Gagner, Smid, 2nd for one year of Suter), or he would, in which case you add a 1st AND (a lot) MORE. What part of me saying that that was the start, a framework, with more to be added, are you not understanding?

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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
It is ultra, ultra rare that a player comments that he doesn't enjoy playing for the team he is in. It is part of the code that you just suck it up until you are a free agent whether you like it or not.

And as for the whole superstars are dying to go to Edmonton, Dany Heatley still hasn't returned your call.

As for this team being a "future destination", lots of top end draft picks does not make you a lock for the cup, let alone making the playoffs. Look at Atlanta, in back to back years they drafted Heatley and Kovalchuk, and they turned out about as good as you can expect any prospect to and they did nothing with all the talent.

Look I like Edmonton as a city, but you need to be realistic about it, it isn't a destination for any top flight players right now, potential or not.
I'm not a fan of Edmonton at all, but to be fair, Heatley is no longer a superstar, he's just paid like one.

I agree with you on Edmonton not being a destination for top flight UFAs though. If Hall, Eberle, RNH, and MPS won't entice guys to come there, nothing will.

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Old
08-08-2011, 05:34 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
He has some injury issues? Define some? Seems to me he has many injury issues and not I don't think that would be enough to get Suter.
No, most of his injury issues that have kept him out of the lineup have been shoulder-related.

He's tweaked his groin a couple of times, but only missed a handful of games with that, and I believe he had a concussion a year or two ago, but it was only his first that I can recall and didn't have any lingering effects on him.

If his shoulders are good, he should play at least 70 games this year.

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08-08-2011, 05:37 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Really? You live in OTTAWA and you're bashing Edmonton? I've lived in Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Victoria, Ottawa and Toronto in this country and the worst of all of them, by quite a long shot, was Ottawa.

Winning brings talent. You think Detroit and Pittsburgh are world class destinations? Hardly.

Nor are Buffalo or Newark, but they all do just fine attracting top level talent.

By the way, over the past 5 years or so, we've done fine attracting solid talent (at least at the time) to sign in Edmonton: Roloson, Sykora, Tjarnqvist, Tarnstrom, Souray, Comrie and Foster were all signed at a time when Edmonton was not a playoff team. They were all difference-makers on their previous teams and chose to sign in Edmonton. No, we're not signing Hossa, Kovalchuk, Richards, etc. but we're doing just fine, especially as a losing team in a small(er) city.

You'll see who wants to play in Edmonton when this team's winning playoff rounds in the next few years vs. who wants to play in Ottawa when you guys are languishing in a rebuild.
I don't know who you are replying to, but I've lived in Ottawa for well over 30 years, and would never want to live anywhere else. In terms of hockey, we have a world-class organization, and aside from ***holes like Yashin and Heatley, any player who's played here will tell you that. And even though we've JUST started a rebuild, if you think we'll be a bottom-feeder 5 years from now (you know, like the Oilers have been dead last in a 30-team league 2 years running, and counting), you are kidding yourself.

Then again, you've signed such superstars as Tjarnqvist, Tarnstrom, and Comrie... LOL (Props on such recent references by the way). Why don't you try, I dunno, finishing second-last instead of last for a change, then we'll talk. Fact is, the Sens, in by far their worst season since they first entered the league, still finished several spots ahead of you... again.

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08-08-2011, 05:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Either Suter wouldn't resign (so its Gagner, Smid, 2nd for one year of Suter), or he would, in which case you add a 1st AND (a lot) MORE. What part of me saying that that was the start, a framework, with more to be added, are you not understanding?



I'm not a fan of Edmonton at all, but to be fair, Heatley is no longer a superstar, he's just paid like one.

I agree with you on Edmonton not being a destination for top flight UFAs though. If Hall, Eberle, RNH, and MPS won't entice guys to come there, nothing will.
But Hall, Eberle, RNH and MPS are enticing people to come here. As stated before, Edmonton didn't go after any big name free agents so how can you say we wouldn't attract them? The Heatley and Pronger saga was years ago when the Oilers were not an attractive team to join, were in a whole new decade here people. The Oilers are fresh and people want to come here because they see the positives this team is bringing.

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08-08-2011, 05:54 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
I don't know who you are replying to, but I've lived in Ottawa for well over 30 years, and would never want to live anywhere else. In terms of hockey, we have a world-class organization, and aside from ***holes like Yashin and Heatley, any player who's played here will tell you that. And even though we've JUST started a rebuild, if you think we'll be a bottom-feeder 5 years from now (you know, like the Oilers have been dead last in a 30-team league 2 years running, and counting), you are kidding yourself.

Then again, you've signed such superstars as Tjarnqvist, Tarnstrom, and Comrie... LOL (Props on such recent references by the way). Why don't you try, I dunno, finishing second-last instead of last for a change, then we'll talk. Fact is, the Sens, in by far their worst season since they first entered the league, still finished several spots ahead of you... again.
Whoa, whoa, whoa dude. hahahaha. I don't know how you can possibly be chirping the Oilers fans being a Sens fan. The Sens are exactly where the Oilers were last year.

And you forgot to mention, Souray, Penner, Khabibulin who have signed here long term recently. These were all big name players when they got their contracts. Now do Ottawa please. I don't recall any big name players coming to Ottawa.

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08-08-2011, 05:54 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Either Suter wouldn't resign (so its Gagner, Smid, 2nd for one year of Suter), or he would, in which case you add a 1st AND (a lot) MORE. What part of me saying that that was the start, a framework, with more to be added, are you not understanding?
Au contraire, it is you who has difficulty comprehending a basic concept: you called out a fellow poster for what you deemed (quoted again for effect) "a really, really bad offer"...then proceeded to "trump" that offer with a difference-making conditional pick (gasp!) under the guise of a "framework" of a deal to cover your ass in case the HFBoards mob decided to dig out their collective pitchforks. Unfortuantely for you, I called you out on it

Let me make it simpler for you to understand: a conditional pick does not make a "really, really bad offer" a passable one. Not even as a "framework" of a deal. As well, if you consider a "framework" of a deal one that would likely contain VERY FEW of the players you mentioned...well, we have nothing left to discuss.

Bottom line: Edmonton WILL NOT trade for Ryan Suter at the deadline WITHOUT a contract extension in place; of course, if there's a contract in place, it's going to take a helluva lot more than Gagner, Smid, and a couple picks to land him - no matter how many conditional picks you add in.

We're done here.


Last edited by Ryno: 08-08-2011 at 06:01 PM.
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Old
08-08-2011, 06:00 PM
  #61
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unless it's eberle i'm not really interested in many pieces for suter

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08-08-2011, 06:03 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
And we all know an impending Free Agent would never garner that kind of return.

Nashville could be forced to make a move like this.
Poile would have to be 100 percent sure he couldn't retain Suter to trade him at the deadline. Hypothetical proposals can be proposed all day long but the chances of Suter being dealt at the deadline are very, very small.

Also, why would EDM trade so much for an asset they might lose after a few months especially when you consider they more than likely won't be in the playoff picture.

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08-08-2011, 06:22 PM
  #63
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Poile would have to be 100 percent sure he couldn't retain Suter to trade him at the deadline. Hypothetical proposals can be proposed all day long but the chances of Suter being dealt at the deadline are very, very small.

Also, why would EDM trade so much for an asset they might lose after a few months especially when you consider they more than likely won't be in the playoff picture.
Well here's the thing: BOTH Suter and Weber will be going into free agency and neither is likely to get less than 7 million. That's a LOT of dough to swallow for two d-men, when the team desperately needs to improve its offense and doesn't have a lot of surefire prospects in the system (a couple of great ones, yes).

It becomes a tough call then- Weber is the first TRUE superstar Nashville has developed, is the team captain, and is probably the most popular player in Nashville- not a traditional hockey market where name recognition goes a long way.

Suter, on the other hand, probably has the edge on Weber defensively, and Nashville has a couple of great d-men prospects coming into the system who have the potential to put up Weber-like numbers, especially Ellis.

Probably going to lose one of them, the question is whether you can at least 'sign and trade' them and get good value. I would sign and then trade Suter next summer, personally. Assuming that they can get an agreement from Suter to comply with that.

That said, I can't imagine why Nashville didn't sign Weber longer-term. 7.5 for Shea Weber is no great deal, but he'd get more on the open market. I imagine he didn't want to because he'll be a UFA soon, but I think they're crazy not to even overpay a little bit to take some of his UFA years away.

Edmonton makes the deal because they NEED another top-3 d-man in order to take it to the next level, and they don't have a surefire one in the system-- though Petry's tracking very nicely. They won't make the deal unless they can arrange a longer-term deal while trade talks are taking place, either.

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Old
08-08-2011, 06:22 PM
  #64
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Everyone bashing the Oilers needs to realize that there are only 4 or 5 players from the 06-07 season still on the team. It is a completely different team with an overhaul of coaching, training and management staff. Argue about the back to back last place finishes all you want, but Edmonton will become an attractive place to play as soon as next year.

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Old
08-08-2011, 06:25 PM
  #65
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Honestly, I think you're going to get barbequed on this one.

Suter's value is very close to Weber's. There's no way they'd trade him without Hall, Ebs, or RNH as the primary asset coming back.
I'd consider MPS equal to Ebs.

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08-08-2011, 06:31 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Well here's the thing: BOTH Suter and Weber will be going into free agency and neither is likely to get less than 7 million. That's a LOT of dough to swallow for two d-men, when the team desperately needs to improve its offense and doesn't have a lot of surefire prospects in the system (a couple of great ones, yes).

It becomes a tough call then- Weber is the first TRUE superstar Nashville has developed, is the team captain, and is probably the most popular player in Nashville- not a traditional hockey market where name recognition goes a long way.

Suter, on the other hand, probably has the edge on Weber defensively, and Nashville has a couple of great d-men prospects coming into the system who have the potential to put up Weber-like numbers, especially Ellis.

Probably going to lose one of them, the question is whether you can at least 'sign and trade' them and get good value. I would sign and then trade Suter next summer, personally. Assuming that they can get an agreement from Suter to comply with that.

That said, I can't imagine why Nashville didn't sign Weber longer-term. 7.5 for Shea Weber is no great deal, but he'd get more on the open market. I imagine he didn't want to because he'll be a UFA soon, but I think they're crazy not to even overpay a little bit to take some of his UFA years away.

Edmonton makes the deal because they NEED another top-3 d-man in order to take it to the next level, and they don't have a surefire one in the system-- though Petry's tracking very nicely. They won't make the deal unless they can arrange a longer-term deal while trade talks are taking place, either.

A few things:


Making the deal contingent on having Suter signed to a long term likely isn't going to happen. I don't remember the last time a UFA to be was traded for at the deadline and then immediately extended. Also, Suter would not want to negotiate a deal during the middle of the season. Hell, no player would want to do that. He also wouldn't want to limit his options and amount of money he could make if he truly wanted to go UFA.


I doubt Suter will get 7+. Obviously you never know. The UFA market is crazy sometimes. But UFA's are quite often paid by numbers and prestige and while Suter's prestige is certainly on the rise it can't compare to say Weber. Also his numbers don't compare.


Finally, again, I just don't see Poile trading Suter unless he is 100 percent sure he is leaving and the likelihood of that is miniscule. The return at the deadline would be less than desirable. Better off just waiting to see if you can get him signed after the season.

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08-08-2011, 06:32 PM
  #67
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Everyone bashing the Oilers needs to realize that there are only 4 or 5 players from the 06-07 season still on the team. It is a completely different team with an overhaul of coaching, training and management staff. Argue about the back to back last place finishes all you want, but Edmonton will become an attractive place to play as soon as next year.
They will become an attractive place once they are one of the top teams in the league. That is still some ways away in all reality.

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08-08-2011, 07:18 PM
  #68
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They will become an attractive place once they are one of the top teams in the league. That is still some ways away in all reality.
So no player in the NHL wants to be part of a team on the rise? They only want to be part of a team that has already gotten there?

That is just ******** as far as I'm concerned. Not every player is a prima donna who wants everything handed to them.

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08-08-2011, 07:35 PM
  #69
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So no player in the NHL wants to be part of a team on the rise? They only want to be part of a team that has already gotten there?

That is just ******** as far as I'm concerned. Not every player is a prima donna who wants everything handed to them.
EDM has yet to " rise". It's not a disrespect to EDM. Obviously every player is looking for their own wants. In general players look for money, competitiveness, location, prestige. EDM doesn't have many of those attributes right now. That's no disrespect to them. Nashville suffers the same issues. Im just saying EDM actually has to be much improved before top flight free agents start looking at EDM for long term contracts. That's just looking at reality.

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08-08-2011, 07:43 PM
  #70
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I'd consider MPS equal to Ebs.
You and I might, but it's doubtful the rest of the league would.

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08-08-2011, 08:08 PM
  #71
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You and I might, but it's doubtful the rest of the league would.
Oilers fans do. Other fans just haven't seen PRV enough to realize how good he is.


What would Nashville want for Ellis other than our core? Hamilton and a pick?

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08-08-2011, 08:19 PM
  #72
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EDM has yet to " rise". It's not a disrespect to EDM. Obviously every player is looking for their own wants. In general players look for money, competitiveness, location, prestige. EDM doesn't have many of those attributes right now. That's no disrespect to them. Nashville suffers the same issues. Im just saying EDM actually has to be much improved before top flight free agents start looking at EDM for long term contracts. That's just looking at reality.
As an Oilers fan I agree quite a bit with your statement - we aren't as far along as some Oiler fans would like to believe, especially when you take all the "player wants" you listed cumulatively. We have one of the oldest arenas in the league and its located in one of the drab, older, run-down areas of the city. Its not as bad as the Igloo was in Pittsburgh where visiting teams actually complained quite vocally in interviews, but its nowhere near the top half of the league. A new arena is at least 3 years away. Competitiveness should start to trend upwards as early as this year, but I think we have 1 more year on the outside looking in and at least 3 years until we are an actual threat to other playoff teams. Money isn't a problem, but with some of these ridiculous contracts being awarded in free agency I'm kind of glad we're not involved in the bidding wars. Again, Katz starting to spend to the cap probably ties into getting the new arena up and running, so 3 years away. Location - well, that depends on what the player (and his family) want. I know guys like Weight, Guerin, Smyth, Moreau, etc all praised their time in Edmonton for the the family oriented communities they lived in and the school systems (I assume either ritzier parts of Edmonton, or suburbs like Sherwood Park or St.Albert). At the same time, her royal highness, Lauren the Duchess of Pronger, wasn't too keen on a little thing called snow or the fact we can have it upwards of 6 months a year. So location is a mixed bag, but its a hockey mad city which may appeal to local products that want to play close to family and home.

SOOOOOOOOOO, maybe we should make this the last NSH-EDM deal for a while? At least if its going to involve Weber/Suter/Rinne. Obviously we'd love to have one of those guys, but I bet you not as much as Preds fans would like to STILL have them.

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08-09-2011, 12:37 AM
  #73
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That should shut him up, he does the same thing in every Oilers thread he's a Canucks fan not surprised though.



After all I think Weber and Suter will resign long term with Nashville.
thanks

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Old
08-09-2011, 03:36 AM
  #74
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If that first proposal went through I'd start believing i was living in the matrix.

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08-09-2011, 08:07 AM
  #75
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