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08-09-2004, 04:08 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
I would trade Lundmark before I would ever think of trading Ortmeyer! I see Ortmeyer as a leader out there on the ice even at this young age. That cannot be taught, although he is basically a role player, he is the type of player the Rangers have been sorely lacking for quite some time. Let's not forget that he is very young still, and will surely become a better player over the next couple of seasons, as well as fill out some more. He is a keeper for the Rangers!
i agree absolutley, i feel the same about jed ortmeyer as i do for garth murray . they are 2 players nyr has seriously lacked and are hard to come by. they are both keepers in my book- QUOTE NYRFAN- "I see Ortmeyer as a leader out there on the ice even at this young age. That cannot be taught, although he is basically a role player, he is the type of player the Rangers have been sorely lacking for quite some time."
WELL SAID

quote nyrfan- "Let's not forget that he is very young still, and will surely become a better player over the next couple of seasons, as well as fill out some more. He is a keeper for the Rangers" once again i agree 100% good perspective on things, i feel the kid has the skills to become a selke finaslist, ike u said still young at 24 or 25 will grow and get alot better

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08-09-2004, 05:47 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
I would trade Lundmark before I would ever think of trading Ortmeyer! I see Ortmeyer as a leader out there on the ice even at this young age. That cannot be taught, although he is basically a role player, he is the type of player the Rangers have been sorely lacking for quite some time. Let's not forget that he is very young still, and will surely become a better player over the next couple of seasons, as well as fill out some more. He is a keeper for the Rangers!
He will be 26 at the start of pre season this year. Not exactly young. He has already done all the growing he is going to do, and filling out will only hurt his game as it is built more on speed and hustle than anything.

The only way Ort can become a better player at this point is by improving his offensive production, but I just don't think he has the talent to do it. He is too close to his ceiling for people to get this excited about him. He could be a very good 3rd/4th line winger with leadership and hustle, who takes PK shifts...but he is not going to be a selke finalist or anything like that.

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08-09-2004, 06:07 PM
  #28
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Ortmeyer has a vey high defensive ceiling. It's more a question if we can find a line for him to play on that really shows his defense.

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08-09-2004, 07:10 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
You've got to be kidding me. You do realize that on ANY other team in the league, Ortmeyer would be considered a fringe 4th liner, right?
Who did more with their playing time last season? They both played for the same screwed up team. Lundmark may improve but will never be the leader he was supposed to be. I consider Ortmeyer a VERY neccesary role player on this team, no flash but plenty of substance! He is the type of player who can inspire team mates with his play. We haven't had a player like him in a long while. Ort is the kind of player that all successful teams have on their roster. For the Rangers to deal a player like him away would send a very bad signal to the rest of our young players. I know he is not loaded with talent, but effort, desire, and hustle, are three key ingredients he has that any succesful team needs in its players in order to succeed!

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08-09-2004, 07:15 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
I would trade Lundmark before I would ever think of trading Ortmeyer! I see Ortmeyer as a leader out there on the ice even at this young age. That cannot be taught, although he is basically a role player, he is the type of player the Rangers have been sorely lacking for quite some time. Let's not forget that he is very young still, and will surely become a better player over the next couple of seasons, as well as fill out some more. He is a keeper for the Rangers!
Please tell me this is a joke. Ortmeyer probably would be a healthy scratch on 95% of the teams in the league. The one and only reason to have him around is because he is an excellent penalty killer. Like a poster just said, he'll be 26 in 2 months, not exactly very young. Leader? Why because he blocks shots? Maybe he should learn to handle the puck and pass it first....

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08-09-2004, 07:21 PM
  #31
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He's a guy like Lacouture {minus the fighting}. A fringe 4th liner who stays in the league because he hustles. If he can add even a little scoring {10 goals perhaps} he could be something but as of right I just don't see him being a core player on any team.

I think he could find a role with a lot of teams in the league, just not the substantial one that some might believe.

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08-09-2004, 07:25 PM
  #32
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Agreed Edge, a scratch with 95% of the teams might have been a stretch. A 4th line fringe player is exactly what he is and probably always will be.

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08-09-2004, 07:25 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Blue
Please tell me this is a joke. Ortmeyer probably would be a healthy scratch on 95% of the teams in the league. The one and only reason to have him around is because he is an excellent penalty killer. Like a poster just said, he'll be 26 in 2 months, not exactly very young. Leader? Why because he blocks shots? Maybe he should learn to handle the puck and pass it first....
If you don't think a player of his type is valuable to any organization then you aren't understanding my position. Role players like him are the difference makers on a very good team , and provide inspiration to team mates at crucial times with their hustle. Every team that was ever any good and won a cup, had one or two Jed Ortmeyer types on it. Fact is if he had alot of skill, he would be a completely different player, and probably not exhibit the same competitive fire he exhibits now! As a Ranger fan, you of all people should know where I am coming from.

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08-09-2004, 07:26 PM
  #34
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As a Ranger Fan I try to look at it realistically. Your statement was NOT that. On a Very GOOD team you can carry a role player like Jed. How can you want a 4th line player to be your leader? He's a role player, a nice guy, and a good penalty killer. Nothing more. Stop trying to make him into the next Mark Messier. He made the team when the team was very bad and made the most of his chances on a lousy team. Be happy with that and pray he can make it again this year.


Last edited by Ranger Blue: 08-09-2004 at 07:31 PM.
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08-09-2004, 07:38 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
If you don't think a player of his type is valuable to any organization then you aren't understanding my position. Role players like him are the difference makers on a very good team , and provide inspiration to team mates at crucial times with their hustle. Every team that was ever any good and won a cup, had one or two Jed Ortmeyer types on it. Fact is if he had alot of skill, he would be a completely different player, and probably not exhibit the same competitive fire he exhibits now! As a Ranger fan, you of all people should know where I am coming from.
I dont think anyone doubts he is a role player, but in order to hit that difference maker level he has to have at least SOME offense.

I mean let's name some really good role players over the years. Lowry, Sundstrom, Moreau, even lesser guys like Harvey, Kris King, Jamal Mayers, etc.

They all at least had some offense. Again I go back to what i said about adding 10 goals. If Ort can do that than yes he might have a chance at finding a more solid niche in the NHL, but a guy like Ortmeyer is not all that uncommon in today's NHL.

We've had guys like him the past two years who frankly brought a little more to the table {a guy like Petrovicky comes to mind}.

I dont doubt he has hard work and hustles, but aside from defense {As of right now} there isnt much else there. He's not a fighter and he's gotta pop in more than 3 goals in a season.

If he can't hit even then 5-10 goal mark I just don't see a prolonged and guranteed future for him in the league.

Will it ever happen? I honestly don't know, but at 26 there's always going to be a kid pushing him who can do what he does {maybe a little more} and is younger. Ortmeyer's competition will be the the Murray's, the Helminen's and yes even the Falardeau's of the world.

That challange will only push him further but the sad bottom line is that all the world work in the world may not be enough to save him eventually following off the bubble.

I dont expect all the kids the rangers have to make it, but i at least expect a few to emerge. Ortmeyer for all his hard work, will simply have to develop a little more offense to even stand a fighting chance.

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08-09-2004, 07:39 PM
  #36
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Ortmeyers stats:
Season Club League GP G A PTS PIM GP G A PTS PIM
1997-98 Omaha USHL 54 23 25 48 52 14 3 4 7 31
1998-99 Omaha USHL 52 23 36 59 81 12 5 6 11 16
1999-00 Michigan CCHA 41 8 16 24 40 - - - - -
2000-01 Michigan CCHA 27 10 11 21 52 - - - - -
2001-02 Michigan CCHA 41 15 23 38 40 - - - - -
2002-03 Michigan CCHA 36 18 16 34 48 - - - - -
2003-04 Hartford AHL 13 2 8 10 4
2003-04 Rangers NHL 58 2 4 6 16 - - - - -
NHL Totals 58 2 4 6 16 0 0 0 0 0
He was signed as a FA in 03 and was MVP at Michigan in 02, I'll keep him over Jamie Franchise ANY day. The ONLY person who compared him to Messier was you! Why is Lundmark given a free pass for indifferent play , but a guy like Ortmeyer who shows up to play every night should be shipped out ?

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08-09-2004, 07:39 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Blue
As a Ranger Fan I try to look at it realistically. Your statement was NOT that. On a Very GOOD team you can carry a role player like Jed. How can you want a 4th line player to be your leader? He's a role player, a nice guy, and a good penalty killer. Nothing more. Stop trying to make him into the next Mark Messier. He made the team when the team was very bad and made the most of his chances on a lousy team. Be happy with that and pray he can make it again this year.
I gotta agree, though I think if people are looking for a role player/leader the odds are better with a guy like Garth Murray than they are with a Jed Ortmeyer.

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08-09-2004, 07:44 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Edge
I gotta agree, though I think if people are looking for a role player/leader the odds are better with a guy like Garth Murray than they are with a Jed Ortmeyer.
How did you come up with that conclusion ? I like Garth but haven't seen him do anything close to what Ort did last season, on a horrible Ranger team! Maybe that's why he stood out in so many peoples mind last season. We will know more after next season, and I have a feeling Ortmeyer will step up his game.

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08-09-2004, 07:47 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
He was signed as a FA in 03 and was MVP at Michigan in 02, I'll keep him over Jamie Franchise ANY day. The ONLY person who compared him to Messier was you! Why is Lundmark given a free pass for indifferent play , but a guy like Ortmeyer who shows up to play every night should be shipped out ?
I think you might be taking the discussion the wrong way. No one is trying to ship Ortmeyer anywhere, but we also have to be realistic about him and about the world of hockey.

I am not looking to move him, but the question was more along the lines of what kind of return WOULD/COULD he fetch and the reality is that it probably wouldn't be that high.

The reality of hockey is that first round picks {no matter how disappointing} will always get more chances.

Lundmark had a disappointing last season, but two years ago also had 8 goals and double digit points as a 21 year old. If everything goes right for Ortmeyer he MIGHT hit those numbers as a 26 year old.

Lundmark for his disappointment still hold at least some promise of 20-25 goals and 50 points. It's still not out of the realm of possibility to see a nice McAmmond type player out of him. Ortmeyer on the other hand is 26, scored 2 goals and doesnt really hold a ton of upside.

That's not a knock on him or a reason to move, but just a fact when considering potential returns.

Yes he put up some numbers in college, but keep in mind he was also an older player. His MVP season he was 23 ish/24ish.

Also we have to look at numbers at the AHL level which werent that high either. He's just not likely to score a lot at the NHL level. That doesn't mean he can't be an okay fourth line player, but he wont be a top fourth line player. And likewise average fourth line players just simply don't fetch that high of a return IF they are moved. Ortmeyer is a guy who could kick around the league for a while, but he'll likely be a guy who changes teams at waiver drafts and not trade deadlines.

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08-09-2004, 07:55 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
How did you come up with that conclusion ? I like Garth but haven't seen him do anything close to what Ort did last season, on a horrible Ranger team! Maybe that's why he stood out in so many peoples mind last season. We will know more after next season, and I have a feeling Ortmeyer will step up his game.

Well for starters he is bigger, stronger, and has a bit more upside. He also has the ability to drop the gloves and play any forward position. He's also 4 years younger.

And I dunno about everyone, bur Murray sure as heck impressed me with his willingness go after anyone and play with heart. He is developing power forward and while i dont think he is an elite type, i think he could be a useful 10-15 goal, 30 point checking third liner who keeps the other team honest.

But at 26 i just dont know how much offense Ortmeyer has in the tank.

Again though i think you're taking this as people running him out of town, which they aren't. They are just being realistic about the fact that he is probably nothing more than a fourth liner. A good guy and a great team player, but a fourth liner nonetheless.

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08-09-2004, 08:00 PM
  #41
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I see your point Edge, and while I agree with alot of what you posted, as a Ranger fan I want to put some faith in Ortmeyer and the fact that he has gotten a late start in the NHL. Even at 26, he is totally capable of stepping up his game as I'm sure you agree. I can see the real possibility of 10 to 15 goals a season out of him, especially since he will undoubtedly get more ice time during the rebuilding. He has the ability, let's hope it translates to the NHL. If he becomes a 10 goal scorer this season, his value would definitely go up, but I still would refrain from trading a player like him, unless the deal was really sweet. Too many NHL players don't want to do the dirty work and jump in front of the puck. It is not as easy as it seems.

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08-09-2004, 08:05 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Well for starters he is bigger, stronger, and has a bit more upside. He also has the ability to drop the gloves and play any forward position. He's also 4 years younger.

And I dunno about everyone, bur Murray sure as heck impressed me with his willingness go after anyone and play with heart. He is developing power forward and while i dont think he is an elite type, i think he could be a useful 10-15 goal, 30 point checking third liner who keeps the other team honest.

But at 26 i just dont know how much offense Ortmeyer has in the tank.

Again though i think you're taking this as people running him out of town, which they aren't. They are just being realistic about the fact that he is probably nothing more than a fourth liner. A good guy and a great team player, but a fourth liner nonetheless.
I don't know if Garth can play that style for an 82 game schedule. Although he is bigger than Jed, he isn't big in comparison to alot of the true power forwards, and his willingness to mix it up may cause problems for him durability wise, because unlike a Barnaby, he hasn't learned to avoid the big punch yet, and is still looking to prove himself!

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08-09-2004, 08:07 PM
  #43
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Well I dont think either way it makes sense to trade him at the moment. The Rangers need bodies and it's just not the right time to deal. If you deal him now you're getting a low pick in return anyway.

I think he might become a 10 goal scorer but personally that's the limit IMO.
I've certainly been wrong before, and frankly I prefer to be proved wrong with guys exceeding my expectations offensivly rather than the other way around.

If he develops into a 15 goal guy, you won't hear any complaints from me. Though I just dont see it reaching quite that level.

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08-09-2004, 08:11 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
I don't know if Garth can play that style for an 82 game schedule. Although he is bigger than Jed, he isn't big in comparison to alot of the true power forwards, and his willingness to mix it up may cause problems for him durability wise, because unlike a Barnaby, he hasn't learned to avoid the big punch yet, and is still looking to prove himself!

Well Garth will certainly learn to have to pace himself, that much is certain. But he's 6'2, 205 and probably figures to finish at about 215. He'll be right up there with guys like Moreau and others in terms of size.

He'll be a powerforward just not likely an elite first line one. His top end is somewhere in the neighborhood of a McCarty type or Weimer type.

But progress with powerfowards {both first and third lines} are slow. They grow into their bodies, keep developing and offense usually takes some time.

I've always preferred having to teach a kid to pace himself than trying to teach him to give more out there.

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08-09-2004, 08:15 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Well Garth will certainly learn to have to pace himself, that much is certain. But he's 6'2, 205 and probably figures to finish at about 215. He'll be right up there with guys like Moreau and others in terms of size.

He'll be a powerforward just not likely an elite first line one. His top end is somewhere in the neighborhood of a McCarty type or Weimer type.

But progress with powerfowards {both first and third lines} are slow. They grow into their bodies, keep developing and offense usually takes some time.

I've always preferred having to teach a kid to pace himself than trying to teach him to give more out there.
Agreed, if he can get to 220 without it hurting his game, it will definitely help his style. Teaching him to ease up a bit vs. give more is definitely the ideal problem to have.

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08-10-2004, 07:09 AM
  #46
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He was signed as a FA in 03 and was MVP at Michigan in 02, I'll keep him over Jamie Franchise ANY day. The ONLY person who compared him to Messier was you! Why is Lundmark given a free pass for indifferent play , but a guy like Ortmeyer who shows up to play every night should be shipped out ?
First off, I never said he should be shipped out. I simply don't agree that you trade a 24 year old that has the potential to be a #1 or #2 line player for a guy that is a #4 line player at best. If I HAD to make a choice over a guy like Orts or a guy like Murray I'd take Murray in a minute. To me, Lundmark isn't even the issue, this is his year to either prove a lot of people right or a lot of people wrong, his choice. You said yourself that Good teams can carry a guy like Orts, well right now the Rangers aren't a good team. Again, I'm not in favor of trading him, I just don't think he's 'All that."

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08-10-2004, 08:12 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackisback
Ortmeyer has a vey high defensive ceiling. It's more a question if we can find a line for him to play on that really shows his defense.
What, praytell is a "vey high defensive ceiling"? Is that like saying that Poti has a very high offensive ceiling? When talking about a players' "ceiling", you have to talk about the complete player.
The reality is that Jed does not have much of a ceiling, per se. Everyone here loves him because he actually does something that has been unheard of in MSG for close to 7 years. He hustles. He dives to stop shots. He skates very hard, all the time. But that is exactly what a player like him has to do to be in the league. Otherwise he would find himself released.
No one is trying to ship him out. We all like him. But to say that one would trade Lundmark before Ortmeyer is ridiculous. I understand that it is just an opinion, but Ortmeyer just does not have much value. The sad truth is that on any other team, he is just waiver fodder.

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08-10-2004, 04:12 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Blue
First off, I never said he should be shipped out. I simply don't agree that you trade a 24 year old that has the potential to be a #1 or #2 line player for a guy that is a #4 line player at best. If I HAD to make a choice over a guy like Orts or a guy like Murray I'd take Murray in a minute. To me, Lundmark isn't even the issue, this is his year to either prove a lot of people right or a lot of people wrong, his choice. You said yourself that Good teams can carry a guy like Orts, well right now the Rangers aren't a good team. Again, I'm not in favor of trading him, I just don't think he's 'All that."
I personally don't think Lundmark is all that. He has shown no character, no hustle, no heart , and no leadership. As far as him ever becoming a first liner, it will never happen. The guy is in la la land on the ice for whatever the reason. Sure the Rangers didn't help him along properly, but he hasn't helped himself at all either. You have got to make the most of your opportunity , like Tyutin , Pock, Murray , Ort , etc. and he has done nothing, even with the limited opportunities he has had, he's had more than all those players!

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08-10-2004, 05:15 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
You've got to be kidding me. You do realize that on ANY other team in the league, Ortmeyer would be considered a fringe 4th liner, right?
And what would Lundmark be? A smallish center/winger who spent most of last year floating around, and managed to score less goals (with more ice time) than Dan Lacouture? I know we all have a special place in our heart because he is left over from the Neil Smith era, but Danny got outscored by Igor Ulanov last year.

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08-11-2004, 09:09 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFAN
He has shown no character, no hustle, no heart , and no leadership.
How much leadership can he possibly show? Has Tyutin appeared to be a great leader when I wasn't looking? No heart? Come on.

"A smallish center/winger who spent most of last year floating around, and managed to score less goals (with more ice time) than Dan Lacouture? "

On that note, in 2 years, Lundmark has scored more than Lacouture and Ortmeyer combined will in 3.

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