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Old
08-11-2004, 09:14 AM
  #51
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I give up. Everyone has favorites, it's not worth the band width at this point.

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08-12-2004, 09:05 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by True Blue
How much leadership can he possibly show? Has Tyutin appeared to be a great leader when I wasn't looking? No heart? Come on.

"A smallish center/winger who spent most of last year floating around, and managed to score less goals (with more ice time) than Dan Lacouture? "

On that note, in 2 years, Lundmark has scored more than Lacouture and Ortmeyer combined will in 3.
Forget leadership. Hustle and heart? I'm sorry he didnt show much AT ALL. I'm not saying he doesnt have heart or wont show any in the future, but to compare his last season to Tyutins (who more or less brought his A game most nights) is freaking idiotic. On alot of other teams, Lundmark would have found himself in the AHL with that play.

As for him outscoring Lacouture and Ortmeyer combined, I dont know where you are getting that math from. The last two years. Lacouture alone has scored 8 goals, only 2 less than Jamie had in the same span. The last 3 years Dan has 14 goals. Jed had two last year, in his first year in the NHL.

While Hustle and heart has been a huge problem these last seven years, I love how some people are still able to give Lundmark a free pass. The kid should play meaningful minutes this year and if he doesnt show something (and I dont just mean scoring, but playing with some intensity) than we have a problem. I know Jamie has a special place in everyones heart because he is a holdover from the golden Neil Smith era, but lets try to be objective here.

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08-12-2004, 11:24 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by blackisback
According to the Devil site, ESPN is correct. He was at Michigan from 93 to 97 and played his first full year in 99-00
Here's a link that should help solving that "enigma"

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com...layer.cgi?0568

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08-12-2004, 11:27 AM
  #54
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For Ortmeyer I'd say he's got good potentiel, he might very well end up like a Madden type of player. He got a great Minor career, and could do the same down the road in the NHL....Art Ross materiel he's not, but Selke you say.... hum Why not

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08-12-2004, 11:41 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Irish Ranger
I know Jamie has a special place in everyones heart because he is a holdover from the golden Neil Smith era, but lets try to be objective here.
Neil Smith has nothing to do with it. I hate to look like I am slamming Jed here, but let's be realistic here. The kid IS NOT the next John Madden. He has NONE of Madden's scoring touch. What made him stand out is his hustle. And let's fool no one, he only stood out on the Rangers. Other teams have plenty of energy players like him. Jed has not shown ANY inclination for the net. Lundmark, scored more goals than Ortmeyer did, when he was 4 or 5 years younger. Ortmeyer is 26 years old. Lundmark is 22. Ortmeyer was given a role and a position. Lundmark was not given any role and was constantly yo-yoed from line to line and from position to position. I do not know if you have ever played organized hockey before, but I can tell you that it is not that easy to go from LW to C to RW and back to C, all in the same game. Ortmeyer was also healthy. Lundmark had a fairly serious knee injury that he probably did not fully recover from until the very end.
Lundmark still has 25 goal/50 pt. potential. IF Ortmeyer improves every aspect of his game and IF he can improve his offensive game by about 1000%, he will be a usefull 3rd line grinder. No team would expose Lundmark to waivers (at least not until he shows what he can do next year). Jed Ortmeyer is waiver material for almost all other teams. Players like him are always available during the waiver draft.

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08-12-2004, 11:45 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Neil Smith has nothing to do with it. I hate to look like I am slamming Jed here, but let's be realistic here. The kid IS NOT the next John Madden. He has NONE of Madden's scoring touch. What made him stand out is his hustle. And let's fool no one, he only stood out on the Rangers. Other teams have plenty of energy players like him. Jed has not shown ANY inclination for the net. Lundmark, scored more goals than Ortmeyer did, when he was 4 or 5 years younger. Ortmeyer is 26 years old. Lundmark is 22. Ortmeyer was given a role and a position. Lundmark was not given any role and was constantly yo-yoed from line to line and from position to position. I do not know if you have ever played organized hockey before, but I can tell you that it is not that easy to go from LW to C to RW and back to C, all in the same game. Ortmeyer was also healthy. Lundmark had a fairly serious knee injury that he probably did not fully recover from until the very end.
Lundmark still has 25 goal/50 pt. potential. IF Ortmeyer improves every aspect of his game and IF he can improve his offensive game by about 1000%, he will be a usefull 3rd line grinder. No team would expose Lundmark to waivers (at least not until he shows what he can do next year). Jed Ortmeyer is waiver material for almost all other teams. Players like him are always available during the waiver draft.
I agree that Ortmeyer and Ludmark are not of the same level(not even close actually)... but still Ortmeyer has shown he could score at lower level, so he might put up decent numbers in the near future at NHL level

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08-12-2004, 11:47 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sabexx
but still Ortmeyer has shown he could score at lower level, so he might put up decent numbers in the near future at NHL level
On what lower levels did he score? College? Not nearly enough to say that he could put up decent number at the NHL level.

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08-12-2004, 12:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Neil Smith has nothing to do with it. I hate to look like I am slamming Jed here, but let's be realistic here. The kid IS NOT the next John Madden. He has NONE of Madden's scoring touch. What made him stand out is his hustle. And let's fool no one, he only stood out on the Rangers. Other teams have plenty of energy players like him. Jed has not shown ANY inclination for the net. Lundmark, scored more goals than Ortmeyer did, when he was 4 or 5 years younger. Ortmeyer is 26 years old. Lundmark is 22. Ortmeyer was given a role and a position. Lundmark was not given any role and was constantly yo-yoed from line to line and from position to position. I do not know if you have ever played organized hockey before, but I can tell you that it is not that easy to go from LW to C to RW and back to C, all in the same game. Ortmeyer was also healthy. Lundmark had a fairly serious knee injury that he probably did not fully recover from until the very end.
Lundmark still has 25 goal/50 pt. potential. IF Ortmeyer improves every aspect of his game and IF he can improve his offensive game by about 1000%, he will be a usefull 3rd line grinder. No team would expose Lundmark to waivers (at least not until he shows what he can do next year). Jed Ortmeyer is waiver material for almost all other teams. Players like him are always available during the waiver draft.



Excellent post True Blue

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08-12-2004, 01:40 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Neil Smith has nothing to do with it. I hate to look like I am slamming Jed here, but let's be realistic here. The kid IS NOT the next John Madden. He has NONE of Madden's scoring touch. What made him stand out is his hustle. And let's fool no one, he only stood out on the Rangers. Other teams have plenty of energy players like him. Jed has not shown ANY inclination for the net. Lundmark, scored more goals than Ortmeyer did, when he was 4 or 5 years younger. Ortmeyer is 26 years old. Lundmark is 22. Ortmeyer was given a role and a position. Lundmark was not given any role and was constantly yo-yoed from line to line and from position to position. I do not know if you have ever played organized hockey before, but I can tell you that it is not that easy to go from LW to C to RW and back to C, all in the same game. Ortmeyer was also healthy. Lundmark had a fairly serious knee injury that he probably did not fully recover from until the very end.
Lundmark still has 25 goal/50 pt. potential. IF Ortmeyer improves every aspect of his game and IF he can improve his offensive game by about 1000%, he will be a usefull 3rd line grinder. No team would expose Lundmark to waivers (at least not until he shows what he can do next year). Jed Ortmeyer is waiver material for almost all other teams. Players like him are always available during the waiver draft.
You are missing the point. I'm not comparing Jed to Madden. Actually I'm not comparing Jed to ANYONE. Jed is what he is, a winger with decent size, decent speed, and great hustle. He scored 2 goals in his first half-season pro, and i think 5-8 goals is probably not asking too much after he rounds out his game. Will he ever be a 15-20 goal scorer like Madden? I doubt it. But to say that he needs to "improve every aspect of his game" and "improve his offensive game by about 1000%" just to be a third line grinder is ridiculous. Checking forwards are primarily defensive players. You need them to be smart and responsible defensively, work hard, and of course the most effective of them have good size and speed. If they can chip in offensively, like a Holik or Madden, then that is a plus. Jed has everything he needs to be a good 3rd-4th liner right now, except experience, which he should continue to get. Are players like him a dime a dozen? Sort of. Big strong wingers who cant score are always in abundance, but Ortemeyers work ethic makes him stand out. He's the most tenacious player I've seen on the Rangers in a while, he almost trumps York in that department.

As for value in a trade or to THIS organization, Lundmark is far, far more valuable right now. Lundmark can still reach that level of 2nd line player, I mean he is still pretty young. But if he continues to play like he did last year, he will be lucky to stay on an NHL roster, let alone score 25 goals. I'm not saying Jamie was handled perfectly (or even properly) but that is not an excuse for indifferent play. Its not like he simply wasnt able to handle moving positions, he didnt even look like he TRIED to handle it. Most nights he was invisible. When he wasnt, it was usually because he did something wrong. Which is my point: if Lundmark was on any other team, and played as awfully as he did last year, he probably would have been demoted. Offensive players who cant score (and dont play hard) have three options 1) improve your game so you can score 2) learn to be a defensive forward or 3) go be a scoring forward in some other league. On the other hand, if Ortemeyer continues to play like he did last year, and his game improves it should with experience, he will probably always have a spot on some teams roster.

And this is about Neil Smith. Or rather, its about Glen Sather. Use Poti as an example. When it comes to guys like Poti, its never: "well hes still young" or "hes being partnered with another offensive D-man" or "Poti shouldnt go against the other teams top lines", being the reason for his crappy year. Why? Because we dont like Poti. Poti plays like a sissy, cost us Mike York, and of course was brought in by Sather. We dont care that he is still young and was misused most of the year. We dont like him, and thats that. Lundmark? We like Lundmark. He is young, was once projected as a top line player, and most importantly was not brought in by Sather. Therefore we emphasize the fact that he was misused, instead of the fact that he played like he didnt care most of the year.

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08-12-2004, 03:11 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Irish Ranger
And this is about Neil Smith. Or rather, its about Glen Sather. Use Poti as an example. When it comes to guys like Poti, its never: "well hes still young" or "hes being partnered with another offensive D-man" or "Poti shouldnt go against the other teams top lines", being the reason for his crappy year. Why? Because we dont like Poti. Poti plays like a sissy, cost us Mike York, and of course was brought in by Sather. We dont care that he is still young and was misused most of the year. We dont like him, and thats that. Lundmark? We like Lundmark. He is young, was once projected as a top line player, and most importantly was not brought in by Sather. Therefore we emphasize the fact that he was misused, instead of the fact that he played like he didnt care most of the year.
Apples and oranges. I have no idea how Smith's name was dragged into any of this. You cannot compare Porta Poti to Lunmark. Poti has been in the league for 5 years. Poti was given a shot by most on this board. We may have hated the trade, but at the time of it, we recognized Poti's talent level. However, at this point and time, the reason most of us cannot stand Poti has nothing at all to do with York. Rather, it has to do with the fact that he could be the worst defenseman in the entire league. Nothing to do with him not being physical. Personally, I could care less. However, even non-physical defenders can play smart defense. Look at Lidstrom. Poti does not even make an effort to play defense. He cowers from players like Gionta, for cryin' out loud. How many times have we seen him just simply stare as opposing players are whacking at loose puck?
Poti has never met a pock check he did not like. We dislike him becuase for all of his vaunted offensive powers, he sets the other team up more than his own. He has horrible decision making skills. It took Pock all of one game to figure out that a quick wrister from the point, when on a PP, is FAR more effective than winding up for a booming slapshot, that inevetably gets blocked. Poti cannot do a simple wrister. He has to spend all of that time winding up. He also has no conception when the proper time to shoot or pass is. He would far rather overpass the puck than simply get the puck on goal.
Plus, at least for me, his attitude is detestable. The minute he came out and said that he should be given more slack with his defensive failures becuause he is an "offensive guy" and not a "defensive guy", that sealed the deal. Any player who thinks he should be exempt from playing defense, just becuase he is "an offensive" player, should not be here. We've had far too many Tom Poti's in the past 7 years.

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