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Are the Canucks tough enough?

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Old
12-08-2011, 02:11 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
Worked for Tim Thomas...he went and speared Sedin in the balls with his stick. But hey, he's a classy guy.

I also agree - if the Twins are getting pushed around, they need to have a pushback. Don't go ape, just don't take BS.
Didn't Thomas bodycheck Henrik in front of the net too? Maybe we need to bring in Billy Smith

Daniel disgusted me with how he let Marchand punch him in the face several times without doing anything back. The game was out of reach and he just stood there and took it. He needed to fight back. What else disgusted me was there was no response by our team. None at all, and that was common throughout the playoffs. Ben Eager runs over Daniel from behind and Ehrhoff just stood there yapping. Didn't do a damn thing (glad Ehrhoff is gone for that reason).

This year we are without Raffi Torres who was our pitbull. I hope we can bring in a guy like Chris Neil for 4th line duty.

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Old
12-08-2011, 02:17 PM
  #102
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^Well, in the case of Ben Eager, the Canucks killed the Sharks on the PP as a result. But then again, Eager also got appropriate penalties for his infractions - something that didn't happen so much in the Final. As I said in the GDT, the Canucks need to be able to adapt their responses to the way the game is being called. If the refs are calling appropriate penalties, then absolutely they should turn the other cheek and slaughter them on the PP. But if the refs start letting the players police the game, then I want to see them take their ounces of flesh right back.

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12-08-2011, 02:33 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
He was one of our leading scorers in the finals
How is that relevant to your post I quoted? It was about team toughness not scoring ability.

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12-08-2011, 02:36 PM
  #104
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Depending on how Ottawa does, Konopka may be available. Guy doesn't do much outside of win faceoffs and fight (on pace for 282 PIMS!). Could just toss him on the fourth line LW or something.

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12-08-2011, 02:37 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
Worked for Tim Thomas...he went and speared Sedin in the balls with his stick. But hey, he's a classy guy.

I also agree - if the Twins are getting pushed around, they need to have a pushback. Don't go ape, just don't take BS.
I was taught that you take the man clean but you take no **** from anyone. If someone punches you in the face or gives you a facewash you do it right back but up the ante at the same time; you give it back harder to show that if he keeps doing that he's going to pay. Yeah sometimes you get burned for a penalty but the goal can still be achieved. The player may not take any liberties with you or your team-mates the next time.

It's a similar theory to when someone cheapshots your best player. You don't go after the guy who did it - you go after their best player. Later in the opposing dressing room when he's licking his wounds he's got a glare-on for the team-mate of his who brought this upon him and they're having a heated discussion. That is far more effective than going after the initial scrub. You want the best player on the other team to swear out loud when he sees your best player take a bad hit, because he knows that he's next in line.

I honestly find it totally hard to relate to anyone who allows himself to be pushed around. I think the Sedins are great guys and they're tough in other ways, but they're pacifists and I can't relate to that. You don't have to start anything, but if someone else does you need to take a stand.

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12-08-2011, 03:40 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I hope we can bring in a guy like Chris Neil for 4th line duty.
This seems like a perfect fit, imo.

Neil and Robidas and we will be set.

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12-08-2011, 03:47 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
Worked for Tim Thomas...he went and speared Sedin in the balls with his stick. But hey, he's a classy guy.

I also agree - if the Twins are getting pushed around, they need to have a pushback. Don't go ape, just don't take BS.
They need to pull a Joe Thornton whose idea of raising his play in the playoffs = cheap slashes behind the play.

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12-08-2011, 03:55 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post

I also agree - if the Twins are getting pushed around, they need to have a pushback. Don't go ape, just don't take BS.
Henrik started 'fighting' back and being aggressive in the playoffs, but it just doesn't suit him at all, consequently it took away from his game of scoring and attacking the net, plus all the analysts didn't like that either during the intermissions of the games.

It is why the team could use a bit more size and grit up front to do that for them, so they can just solely concentrate on what they do best and put up points.

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12-08-2011, 04:10 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chairman Maouth View Post
I honestly find it totally hard to relate to anyone who allows himself to be pushed around. I think the Sedins are great guys and they're tough in other ways, but they're pacifists and I can't relate to that. You don't have to start anything, but if someone else does you need to take a stand.

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12-08-2011, 04:12 PM
  #110
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Daniel should pop his helmet off, drop the gloves and skate to centre ice and wait for Marchand Jan. 7, there's no reason he can't and shouldn't fight that guy. He would gain a lot of respect with that move. Of course he won't, but he should lol...

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12-08-2011, 04:22 PM
  #111
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The canucks are definetly not tough enough... in order to have a good chance to win a stanley cup, you need to be able to adjust to different styles of play including the rough stuff!

The canucks need a 4th line enforcer type that can at least play 8 mins / game (jackman, thornton type) and at least 1 big winger to help win board battles!

They do not need a stupid blockhead goon (eager, macintyre) that has over 2 pims / game: these guys will lose you games.

Tim jackman is my ideal player that gillis needs to target. And trade schneider for a young power forward with size (johansen, ashton, connolly). that is the solution to the forward corps.

We also need 1 more top 4 defenseman (we have edler, hamhuis, bieksa). It's critical to get a no. 1 defenseman, if I were gillis I would sell the farm for weber...

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12-08-2011, 04:35 PM
  #112
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I miss the days where we had tough guys that could PLAY, like Bertuzzi. I think that'd go a lot farther than having a goon on the 4th that isn't going to get you in trouble in your own end. He's still taking up a roster spot. A rugged power forward who has skill and can play a top 9 role is what we need. If I were Gillis, I wouldn't be selling the farm for a Weber-style player, I'd be selling it for a Lucic-style player, with the skill to go with.

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12-08-2011, 04:48 PM
  #113
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Ben Kuzma on Gillis' latest interview about "team toughness":

Yes, I heard Gillis, too. If you read between the lines, I see the GM riding out the Booth injury and eventually addressing the fourth line with a "deterrent" player, one who can actually play in the postseason.
by Ben Kuzma 2:07 PM

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12-08-2011, 04:52 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Daniel should pop his helmet off, drop the gloves and skate to centre ice and wait for Marchand Jan. 7, there's no reason he can't and shouldn't fight that guy. He would gain a lot of respect with that move. Of course he won't, but he should lol...
I'd like to see it too, but let's not kid ourselves here. Daniel would finish that fight with more than just a bruised ego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCool16 View Post
I miss the days where we had tough guys that could PLAY, like Bertuzzi. I think that'd go a lot farther than having a goon on the 4th that isn't going to get you in trouble in your own end. He's still taking up a roster spot. A rugged power forward who has skill and can play a top 9 role is what we need. If I were Gillis, I wouldn't be selling the farm for a Weber-style player, I'd be selling it for a Lucic-style player, with the skill to go with.
I personally do not miss Bertuzzi's laziness.

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12-08-2011, 04:55 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Ben Kuzma on Gillis' latest interview about "team toughness":

Yes, I heard Gillis, too. If you read between the lines, I see the GM riding out the Booth injury and eventually addressing the fourth line with a "deterrent" player, one who can actually play in the postseason.
by Ben Kuzma 2:07 PM
Good to hear.

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12-08-2011, 05:00 PM
  #116
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This debate reminds me of what the coach always kept saying when you played hockey as a kid.

Taking the beating is tougher than fighting back and sinking to their level.

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12-08-2011, 05:02 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCool16 View Post
I miss the days where we had tough guys that could PLAY, like Bertuzzi.
You probably wont see a response like these ones from our current team. They would rather make the teams pay on the power play. I miss our team toughness






When Linden was hit from behind Jovo jumped in right away without hesitation, he didn't give a crap about negating the power play. Our current team watched Henrik get hit like that and did nothing, and all the did later in the game was "ask" Methot to fight. How nice of them to ask, Jovo skipped the "asking" part and just dropped the gloves right away the way it should be done when a teammate gets a cheap shot.

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12-08-2011, 05:14 PM
  #118
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If only Burrows was 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier with a mean streak, he'd be the ideal bodyguard for the Sedins and we wouldn't have this discussion. sigh

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12-08-2011, 05:51 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
No, you're really not. Chris Niel is a 2m 4th liner. Lapierre is more skilled than Niel and makes half as much. So I have to ask: Why would you pay 2m dollars for a lesser player? Answer: Toughness. You are paying 1m for erratic toughness that will not change a thing for this roster. He's a great example of paying for toughness and not skill. Niel doesn't displace Hansen on this roster, yet makes more than him??... Think about that.


Don't want Niel, Winnik (averages 18 min TOI so numbers are inflated), or Burrish (Yuck). Asham would be good but he's not leaving the east.


I understand what you are saying though, toughness without sacrificing skill is the ticket. However, to get that, you have to draft it. Boston's toughness is localized to Lucic, Marchand, Chara, and McQuaid. Everyone else follows their lead. The top 3 mentioned are key players that get significant ice time. 2 were drafted, and Chara was signed to huge money in UFA. Nothing stops Gillis from drafting it, or acquiring it in FA. In fact, he tried to pry Backes to shore that toughness up. That's the type of player to go after. Not the guys riding the bench.
I disagree that Neil is a 2mil 4th liner. Neil's on pace for 30 pts this season over an 82 game stretch while only averaging 13:24 mins per game. The fact that he gets a minute and a half of PP per game with the Sens is testament to his ability to play hockey, he's not just a goon. Having a guy like that is great during the playoffs: he can play 2nd PP in front of the net, on the 3rd line, and move up in short spurts to provide toughness and fill in for injured/cold players. He's a guy we could really utilize well in our system, he is not a 2mil 4th liner.

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12-08-2011, 06:12 PM
  #120
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Quote:
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I disagree that Neil is a 2mil 4th liner. Neil's on pace for 30 pts this season over an 82 game stretch while only averaging 13:24 mins per game. The fact that he gets a minute and a half of PP per game with the Sens is testament to his ability to play hockey, he's not just a goon. Having a guy like that is great during the playoffs: he can play 2nd PP in front of the net, on the 3rd line, and move up in short spurts to provide toughness and fill in for injured/cold players. He's a guy we could really utilize well in our system, he is not a 2mil 4th liner.

He's been predominately a 20 point player throughout his career. He's on pace for 26 this year. To put that into context: Manny Malhotra averages about 30 points a year playing 3rd line minutes. That is, offensive black-hole MM averages 10 more points a year... Manny doesn't get PP time either, so he doesn't get to inflate stats the way Niel does. Point being, Niel's production is good 4th line production. The 3rd line is another level.


On Balance, Niel is a 4th liner. On this team, he is definitely a 4th liner. He doesn't unseat Hansen or Raymond/Higgins. And why would he get PP time over Booth or Higgins or Raymond or Hansen or Hodgson or Burrows, all of whom are clearly better players? A specialist goon that gets PP time for 2m? No thank you. See, the Asham suggestion was fine because his salary made sense. Niel's salary makes no sense. MG won't go after this guy because his salary is unjustified.

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Old
12-08-2011, 06:42 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Ben Kuzma on Gillis' latest interview about "team toughness":

Yes, I heard Gillis, too. If you read between the lines, I see the GM riding out the Booth injury and eventually addressing the fourth line with a "deterrent" player, one who can actually play in the postseason.
by Ben Kuzma 2:07 PM
That's funny, because I heard exactly the opposite from the interview. When people say read between the lines, it often means just make up what ever you want.

Gillis talked about how Colorado has come out in the last 2 games against the Canucks and employed a "certain style" and in those 2 games, the Canucks have destroyed them by a combined score of 9-1. He then said if teams want to try to play that style, it plays to the Canucks strengths, so essentially, bring it on. He was asked if this approach failed the team in the Stanley Cup finals and he basically said no, if the game is called the way it's supposed to be and if the team is healthy, he feels we can win this way. He's not opposed to toughness, but the team can't afford to have one dimensional players who can't function in the skill game that the Canucks employ.

Of the last 10 Stanley Cup champions, only Boston and Anaheim were really a tough bruising team, maybe honorable mention to Chicago. Detroit, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Colorado and Dallas were all skill based teams. New Jersey wasn't a bruising team, but has a stifling, structured defense and great goal tending.


I'll say it again because no one has ever presented a logical argument to rebut this. Fighting is not a deterrent. Nobody is afraid to fight because for those who are not good at it, there are always other options. The only guys who get hurt in fights are the willing combatants - usually fractured hands and broken facial bones. If tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and lost salary from suspensions don't deter fighting, how is a 45 second wrestling match where if you don't want to get hurt you just go down and the linesmen break it up going to deter anything? If no one fears a fight, how does it deter anything?

If people really want an on-the-ice deterrent, then think about stick swinging, spearing, kicking, hanging a knee and other potentially career ending atrocities. Those things, if done immediately in response to a dirty hit would be a deterrent. But I don't think anyone really wants to see this type of violence on the ice.


Last edited by LeftCoast: 12-08-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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Old
12-08-2011, 07:32 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Of the last 10 Stanley Cup champions, only Boston and Anaheim were really a tough bruising team, maybe honorable mention to Chicago. Detroit, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Colorado and Dallas were all skill based teams. New Jersey wasn't a bruising team, but has a stifling, structured defense and great goal tending.
I agree with that. People always chase what just won as if it is canon. A great goalie performance - must get a great goal. Skill wins - must get more skill. A great D - must get a great D. A team with 5 circus clowns - must get more circus clowns. People forget the big picture and just remember what happened last.

My issue with the finals and toughness is - show me where we lost because of toughness. 90% of the time toughness is more about the fans feeling good about the game - whether or not they lost - "at least we beat them up even if we lost".

Boston beat us because Thomas was superb
Boston beat us because their team played better
Boston beat us because most of our best players were injured
Boston beat us because the refs forgot the rules

All valid reasons, but I don't see "Boston beat us through toughness".

-----------------------------------

More toughness would still be nice but I'd like to see more top 6 toughness (or at least a 3rd liner that can play 2nd line if needed) or quality top 4 D that can fight. You want a good chance one of them be out there if something happens, especially to a star. A 4th fighter isn't going to be out there when a star get run.

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12-09-2011, 12:11 AM
  #123
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I disagree that Neil is a 2mil 4th liner. Neil's on pace for 30 pts this season over an 82 game stretch while only averaging 13:24 mins per game. The fact that he gets a minute and a half of PP per game with the Sens is testament to his ability to play hockey, he's not just a goon. Having a guy like that is great during the playoffs: he can play 2nd PP in front of the net, on the 3rd line, and move up in short spurts to provide toughness and fill in for injured/cold players. He's a guy we could really utilize well in our system, he is not a 2mil 4th liner.
Yeah good points luck 6, Neil I think is perfect for this team.

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12-09-2011, 12:24 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I disagree that Neil is a 2mil 4th liner. Neil's on pace for 30 pts this season over an 82 game stretch while only averaging 13:24 mins per game. The fact that he gets a minute and a half of PP per game with the Sens is testament to his ability to play hockey, he's not just a goon. Having a guy like that is great during the playoffs: he can play 2nd PP in front of the net, on the 3rd line, and move up in short spurts to provide toughness and fill in for injured/cold players. He's a guy we could really utilize well in our system, he is not a 2mil 4th liner.
How is Neil not a 4th liner in Vancouver? You're underestimating the Canucks absurd forward depth. There's no way this guy unseats Booth, Higgins, Raymond or Hansen and sticks on the wing in the top 9 - injuries would be his only hope to play up the lineup.

Chris Neil would probably be the Canucks 12th best forward with everyone healthy. Sure he would look good on the 4th line, unfortunately it's tough to fit a $2mil onto the 4th line wing. Some luxuries cnanot be afforded and Neil is one of them.

As for trading Raymond for Neil, no way. Raymond is disciplined, draws a TON of penalties, plays in all situations and has a 25 goal, 50 point pedigree at a young age. That's not a move that holds up well longterm.

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12-09-2011, 12:30 AM
  #125
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Hello no to Neil. The chances of a Bruins Vancouver Stanley Cup rematch are slim to none. I wouldn't change the makeup of the team just to be able to beat Boston. With that being said I could be eating my words when we meet Boston in the finals again :S

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