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OEL to Flyers

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Old
08-14-2011, 05:37 PM
  #26
markisonfire
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As a Kings fan, I enthusiastically say no to anything that brings Brayden Schenn back to the Pacific. No thanks!

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08-14-2011, 10:45 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Yeah, but you and I could form a tandem almost as good as those 3 and that's not saying much.

Mike Smith he might only be slightly better than. If the Coyotes really wanted him, they'd give Philly a 3rd.
That first part made me laugh so hard. Kudos

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08-14-2011, 10:51 PM
  #28
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Seriously though in order to get OEL you would probably have to give up one of those two plus a first and maybe even more to the point were its ridiculous. OEL is going to be amazing. Book it.

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08-15-2011, 12:11 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by svat View Post
schenn + first. don't care if that's too much. i have a wood for OEL, and would give a nut to get him on the bruins.

And it's posts like this that ..... well I'd better stop right the because the mods wouldn't like the rest.


OEL has nowhere NEAR that much value no matter what any fans may WANT. It's stupid to ask any fan base to trade one of their young up-and-coming players/prospects because rarely are they realistic. It doesn't matter what any fan says "it would take for ME to trade him" because they aren't in control. The simple fact is that IF he were to be traded his return would be far far less than what most fans would feel good with getting. Schenn + 1st is more than the Flyers got for Richards and sorry, but Mike Richards is worth about eithg billions times more than OEL (ok, so it's a little bit of an exageration). OEL would be worth a 1st and a mid level prospect from the Flyers. Bobrovsky + 1st is over payment by the Flyers regardless of what others may think. However, regardless of what his ACTUAL value may be, there is no real chance of him getting traded because he IS more valuable to the Yotes than what he'd ACTUALLY return in a trade.

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08-15-2011, 12:25 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
And it's posts like this that ..... well I'd better stop right the because the mods wouldn't like the rest.


OEL has nowhere NEAR that much value no matter what any fans may WANT. It's stupid to ask any fan base to trade one of their young up-and-coming players/prospects because rarely are they realistic. It doesn't matter what any fan says "it would take for ME to trade him" because they aren't in control. The simple fact is that IF he were to be traded his return would be far far less than what most fans would feel good with getting. Schenn + 1st is more than the Flyers got for Richards and sorry, but Mike Richards is worth about eithg billions times more than OEL (ok, so it's a little bit of an exageration). OEL would be worth a 1st and a mid level prospect from the Flyers. Bobrovsky + 1st is over payment by the Flyers regardless of what others may think. However, regardless of what his ACTUAL value may be, there is no real chance of him getting traded because he IS more valuable to the Yotes than what he'd ACTUALLY return in a trade.
I guess by that logic Schenn is worth MacLean and a 1st.

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08-15-2011, 12:33 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE nazem kadri View Post
OEL is a massive overpayment.
I donno, man. Schenn is likely to at least turn into an elitle shutdown center. He could turn into a Ryan Kesler clone, but he still has to show that he can put the offense up at the professional level.

OEL also hasn't done jack **** yet.. And I haven't watched him play much, but I wouldn't be surprised if people told me that he's at least likely to turn into a damn good #3 d-man. Value isn't horribly off there then, is it? Plus phoenix also has gormley coming up in a few seasons and he'll probably be even better..

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08-15-2011, 12:48 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
And it's posts like this that ..... well I'd better stop right the because the mods wouldn't like the rest.


OEL has nowhere NEAR that much value no matter what any fans may WANT. It's stupid to ask any fan base to trade one of their young up-and-coming players/prospects because rarely are they realistic. It doesn't matter what any fan says "it would take for ME to trade him" because they aren't in control. The simple fact is that IF he were to be traded his return would be far far less than what most fans would feel good with getting. Schenn + 1st is more than the Flyers got for Richards and sorry, but Mike Richards is worth about eithg billions times more than OEL (ok, so it's a little bit of an exageration). OEL would be worth a 1st and a mid level prospect from the Flyers. Bobrovsky + 1st is over payment by the Flyers regardless of what others may think. However, regardless of what his ACTUAL value may be, there is no real chance of him getting traded because he IS more valuable to the Yotes than what he'd ACTUALLY return in a trade.
Let me put this into terms that are easy to understand here.

James Van Riemsdyk is, for all intents and purposes, untouchable.

So what would it take to trade him? Massive overpayment. Only a select few players are truly "untouchable", but there are certainly a ton of players around the league who are "untouchable" in the sense that no other team would be willing to give up what it would take to land them. Youngsters like OEL and JVR are examples of such players.

If we want OEL, we wont be paying "fair" value for him. We'll have to be overpaying.

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08-15-2011, 11:47 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Let me put this into terms that are easy to understand here.

James Van Riemsdyk is, for all intents and purposes, untouchable.

So what would it take to trade him? Massive overpayment. Only a select few players are truly "untouchable", but there are certainly a ton of players around the league who are "untouchable" in the sense that no other team would be willing to give up what it would take to land them. Youngsters like OEL and JVR are examples of such players.

If we want OEL, we wont be paying "fair" value for him. We'll have to be overpaying.

Let Me Put It This Way:

No team would pay what you THINK those players are worth. IF, and this is the BIGGIE here, IF anu of those players actually were on the trading block in that their team was somewhat unhappy with them or felt they could afford to trade them to upgrade their CURRENT team, then the ACTUAL return wouldn't be nearly as much as any fans on here seem to think. Just because a player is NOT on the trading block doesn't mean that his REAL trade value is some rediculous figure because some on here like to say it would take MASSIVE overpayment to get him because in truth, NO team would actually offer overpayment to get him.

Let me put it this way and maybe you guys will get it (probably not though):

Lets say player John Doe has a realistic value of a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd pick. His team values him and has no reason to trade him and says "We won't trade him for just a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd picks, it would take MASSIVE overpayment of three 1st nd picks to get him away from us." Other teams laugh because they know that John Doe isn't worth three 1st rnd picks and therefore NOBODY offers up three 1st rnd picks. Now just because he doesn't get traded for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd picks that ARE his real trade value doesn't mean that people discussing his value on this board are right in that his value is actually at three 1st rnd picks.

Any of these players value isn't some hypothetical "massive overpayment" because even if the team owning said player actually WOULD move him for that much of an over payment, the fact that there is no team who actually WOULD make that massive overpayment should indicate to any rational person that his value is NOT that high.

Keep saying "massive overpayment" all you guys want, it doesn't mean that this is what his real value is.


To all of you "wanna be GM's" out there, I suggest you actually go sign up and play in a dynasty league where you ice a 22-man roster, have minor league/junior prospects, draft picks, and auction free agent drafts. Do this for about 5 years and then come back here and see if you'd really trade "massive overpayment" for someone like OEL. From someone who has played fantasy football for more than 20 years now (and more than 10 years in a dynasty league) you wouldn't. It's just plain stupid to even consider it and that's why you DON'T see these "massive overpayment" to get an unproven player even if he has a high upside.

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Old
08-16-2011, 12:09 AM
  #34
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First of all, you took way too much offense to me saying "Let me put this into terms that are easy to understand".

It was not my intention to imply that you are too stupid to understand it any other way. The point I was making is one that is not easy to explain, and thus I had to simplify it and give an easy to understand example to illustrate my point.

Understand?

No need to take offense to that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Let Me Put It This Way:

No team would pay what you THINK those players are worth. IF, and this is the BIGGIE here, IF anu of those players actually were on the trading block in that their team was somewhat unhappy with them or felt they could afford to trade them to upgrade their CURRENT team, then the ACTUAL return wouldn't be nearly as much as any fans on here seem to think. Just because a player is NOT on the trading block doesn't mean that his REAL trade value is some rediculous figure because some on here like to say it would take MASSIVE overpayment to get him because in truth, NO team would actually offer overpayment to get him.
Most GMs in the NHL are happy with their teams. To move a player who they have no intetion of trading requires more value than what fans believe to be fair.

When a GM starts shopping a player, that is when he starts to look around for "fair value".

Quote:
Let me put it this way and maybe you guys will get it (probably not though):

Lets say player John Doe has a realistic value of a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd pick. His team values him and has no reason to trade him and says "We won't trade him for just a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd picks, it would take MASSIVE overpayment of three 1st nd picks to get him away from us." Other teams laugh because they know that John Doe isn't worth three 1st rnd picks and therefore NOBODY offers up three 1st rnd picks. Now just because he doesn't get traded for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rnd picks that ARE his real trade value doesn't mean that people discussing his value on this board are right in that his value is actually at three 1st rnd picks.
Even if you interpreted my post incorrectly and took offense, there's no need for you to belittle my intelligence. That's uncalled for.

The value required to acquire "John Doe's" services is 3 first round picks. His fair value is a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd. That's the difference here.

Example: The value that it would take to acquire JVR is substantially higher than what is considered "fair value". Say his value is worth two 1sts and a 2nd, wouldnt it take substantially more than that to get Holmgren to consider trading him? Just an example, but it illustrates my point quite clearly.

Quote:
Any of these players value isn't some hypothetical "massive overpayment" because even if the team owning said player actually WOULD move him for that much of an over payment, the fact that there is no team who actually WOULD make that massive overpayment should indicate to any rational person that his value is NOT that high.

Keep saying "massive overpayment" all you guys want, it doesn't mean that this is what his real value is.
It is the value required to purchase said player. It may not be his actual value, but it is the value necessary to pry him off of his current team. In most cases, players arent being shopped, and thus it requires more than fair value to acquire a player.



Quote:
To all of you "wanna be GM's" out there, I suggest you actually go sign up and play in a dynasty league where you ice a 22-man roster, have minor league/junior prospects, draft picks, and auction free agent drafts. Do this for about 5 years and then come back here and see if you'd really trade "massive overpayment" for someone like OEL. From someone who has played fantasy football for more than 20 years now (and more than 10 years in a dynasty league) you wouldn't. It's just plain stupid to even consider it and that's why you DON'T see these "massive overpayment" to get an unproven player even if he has a high upside.
Phlocky, I am an admin in a dynasty EHM league, and I'd love for you to join. I have been commish in many as well. PM me if you would like to join. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how this proves your point or proves me wrong. When I have a player who I am perfectly happy with, it takes overpayment for me to trade him. When I am shopping the player, I'll probably be settling for around "fair value".

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08-16-2011, 01:28 AM
  #35
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Ok, just one question, would you really trade massive over payment for someone like OEL??? Really??? If his current owner tells you that he wants Schenn and Voracek for him would you do it??? This is massive over payment. If that's really what his owner tells you what it would cost would you really make that trade??? The truth is that this is NOT his real trade value because nobody would make such a rediculous offer.

My point in bringing up dynasty leagues is that people who do them SHOULD know actual value of players. You of all people should understand this. If an owner says it would cost way more than a player is actually worth to aquire him then now SENSIBLE owner would make an offer. Now I'm not saying that Phx SHOULD accept what is his fair market value and honestly, if I were them I wouldn't trade him unless I got massive over payment (and again, I know I wouldn't be getting said massive over payment so I'd just keep him).

OEL's trade value is ONLY what has been offered for him. I fail to see how anyone can say that his value is "massive over payment" when this hasn't been offered. The truth is that his value is probably a little more than a high 1st or a lower 1st and a solid prospect, or a top prospect, or a top young player, not multiples of all of these.

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08-16-2011, 01:46 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Ok, just one question, would you really trade massive over payment for someone like OEL??? Really??? If his current owner tells you that he wants Schenn and Voracek for him would you do it??? This is massive over payment. If that's really what his owner tells you what it would cost would you really make that trade??? The truth is that this is NOT his real trade value because nobody would make such a rediculous offer.
Of course I wouldnt make that trade. But youre missing the point. What I am saying is that to get Phoenix to move a piece that they have no intention of moving, you would have to overpay.

Now obviously no team is going to overpay.

Thus, OEL stays in Phoenix. It's how the league works and it is why we dont see trades every other day.

Players rarely get traded for overpayment, but then again, players rarely get traded if their GM has no intention of trading them! This is the case for 90% of the league. But then when we have a case of a GM shopping a star player (ie, Carter or Richards), then the GM looks to trade them for a fair value deal rather than overpayment.

Quote:
My point in bringing up dynasty leagues is that people who do them SHOULD know actual value of players. You of all people should understand this. If an owner says it would cost way more than a player is actually worth to aquire him then now SENSIBLE owner would make an offer. Now I'm not saying that Phx SHOULD accept what is his fair market value and honestly, if I were them I wouldn't trade him unless I got massive over payment (and again, I know I wouldn't be getting said massive over payment so I'd just keep him).
That's exactly my point! You dont trade a piece you intend to keep unless it is massive overpayment.

So the value required to trade OEL is much higher than "fair value". That's my point. Obviously no team will pay this price, so that's why OEL stays. If you dont want to pay that massive price, then fine. The Coyotes are obviously content in keeping him.

Quote:
OEL's trade value is ONLY what has been offered for him. I fail to see how anyone can say that his value is "massive over payment" when this hasn't been offered. The truth is that his value is probably a little more than a high 1st or a lower 1st and a solid prospect, or a top prospect, or a top young player, not multiples of all of these.
Yes, his fair value is around that.

But the value required to make Phoenix consider trading him is much greater than that. You pointed that out above, so I'm not sure what you are arguing here.

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Old
08-16-2011, 01:49 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Ok, just one question, would you really trade massive over payment for someone like OEL??? Really??? If his current owner tells you that he wants Schenn and Voracek for him would you do it??? This is massive over payment. If that's really what his owner tells you what it would cost would you really make that trade??? The truth is that this is NOT his real trade value because nobody would make such a rediculous offer.

My point in bringing up dynasty leagues is that people who do them SHOULD know actual value of players. You of all people should understand this. If an owner says it would cost way more than a player is actually worth to aquire him then now SENSIBLE owner would make an offer. Now I'm not saying that Phx SHOULD accept what is his fair market value and honestly, if I were them I wouldn't trade him unless I got massive over payment (and again, I know I wouldn't be getting said massive over payment so I'd just keep him).

OEL's trade value is ONLY what has been offered for him. I fail to see how anyone can say that his value is "massive over payment" when this hasn't been offered. The truth is that his value is probably a little more than a high 1st or a lower 1st and a solid prospect, or a top prospect, or a top young player, not multiples of all of these.
Yes true value. If the player is not on the trading block, it would take an overpayment, thus not making the trade happen.

So lets say i'm content with OEL, and someone offers me Schenn. I'd respond saying i'd only do it for Schenn + Voracek because in all honestly, I don't want to trade OEL. If he says yes, great I got a massive overpayment. If not, I honestly don't care since I never made the proposal in the first place.

Now if for some reason I had a crystal ball or I have a sudden hatred to OEL, then I would put him in the block and take the best "fair offer" which would probably be a high first and a decent prospect.

That's basically what hf has been saying the whole time.

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08-16-2011, 07:51 AM
  #38
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let's take this thread another direction... what d prospects would be available for bob + 1st?

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Old
08-16-2011, 01:47 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by PhillyCurt12 View Post
let's take this thread another direction... what d prospects would be available for bob + 1st?

While Bob is not a piece they need, I think that Zach Bogosian may become available sometime before the next draft. He is a player that I'd like to see the flyers persue. If Byf and Enstrom have good years this year then I think the Jets may be open to trading Bogo. How Bogo performs this year will determine his trade value. He'll be 21 this year and in his 4th year so the direction his game is taking SHOULD be evident by this season. If he's going to be a true #1 or #2 dman then he'll show it this year and his price will be higher. If he underwhelms this year then he COULD still develope into a top pairing dman but will most likely end up being a 2nd pairing guy for his career and his price will be lower (think how Coburns career has gone so far, it's a fair comparison).


Personally, I don't see us being true cup contenders with all the changes we've made this off-season so I'd like to see us make 2 more moves. I'd like to see us trade Hartnell + 2nd to Mont for a 1st. I see Simmons as our replacemnet for Hartnell and Hartnell is the last of the Old City party boys left on the team (seeing how we shipped out Downie, Upshall, Lupul, Richards and Carter, it appears that we were unhappy with that group making Hartnell an "unwanted guy" if he is percieved as part of that group). Mont showed an interest in him and while he may warrent a 1st by himself, I'd be willing to move the 2nd we got in the Richards deal to move up into the 1st rnd of the next draft.

Second, I'd trade Coburn to StL for Ian Cole and Evgeny Grachev. With Meszaros costing 4 mil, he NEEDS to be playing in the top 4. It's a sin to pay a guy 4 mil to sit on the bottom pairing. Also, with him being signed long term, I see only one of Coburn and Carle being resigned next year. I think Mesz can fill Coburns role rather well and trading Coburn would free up a spot on the top 4 for Mesz and the bottom pairing becomes Lilja and Gustafsson with Bart as the #7. Grachev would become our #2 LW behind JVR and Cole should develope into a slightly lesser version of what Coburn is now (he should be a quality, physical, puck-moving 2nd pairing dman). Cole is what he HOPED Marshall would develope into but hasn't lived up to his expectations.

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