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Chris Pronger Trade Scenario

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Old
08-11-2004, 10:50 AM
  #51
oil slick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
Pronger signed his deal when he did because his qualifying offer was about to expire. Just like anyone else who would rather not sign their qualifying offer because they want a longer term deal, he waited till the last minute but had no choice to sign it.

Also, there's this little fact that Pronger offered a long term deal to the Blues months ago.
OK - I'm going to back off from this argument, as I seem to be stepping on some toes. My point was that I think Pronger is one of the best players in the league, and I think he's paid like it too... I just don't believe that he will suddenly sign for less to stay with a team is all.

But I will admit that you know more about the situation that I.

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08-11-2004, 10:56 AM
  #52
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I just don't see why you or anyone else refuses to believe that he could sign for less money to stay.

This sort of thing happens all the time in sports, so why is it so hard to believe? Is it because you don't think highly of the Blues? Is it because you think he's only out for the money?

He has said that he's want to stay in St Louis. He said he wants to win a championship but doing it St Louis is first and foremost. He actually spoke publicly encouraging Blues management to start the 'rebuilding' process sooner than later (meaning that he's willing to stay with the team throughout that process).

My point is simply that I don't see why people don't believe he's willing to stay for less money when all the evidence suggests otherwise.

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Old
08-11-2004, 11:04 AM
  #53
oil slick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
I just don't see why you or anyone else refuses to believe that he could sign for less money to stay.
he could... I just think its not that likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
This sort of thing happens all the time in sports, so why is it so hard to believe? Is it because you don't think highly of the Blues?
not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
Is it because you think he's only out for the money?
I'm sure that he wouldn't sign in a place which he hated, but yeah, I think people are mostly either out for money, or to join the powerhouse team du jour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
He has said that he's want to stay in St Louis. He said he wants to win a championship but doing it St Louis is first and foremost. He actually spoke publicly encouraging Blues management to start the 'rebuilding' process sooner than later (meaning that he's willing to stay with the team throughout that process).
I heard the same kind of thing from Cujo, and Weight and a long line of players. I actually think that they both liked it in Edmonton... but when push comes to shove, and you have to sign on the dotted line for cheap, I think that most don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
My point is simply that I don't see why people don't believe he's willing to stay for less money when all the evidence suggests otherwise.
What evidence? The only evidence I see are the contracts he's signed so far, which are not exactly cut rate.

I think Pronger will probably stay in St.Louis - I think the Blues have the money, and I think it's worth it to their team, and their PR to do so, but I just don't think it will be cheap.

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Old
08-11-2004, 11:17 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
not at all.
And this is exactly what you entire argument (or lack thereof) boils down to. Because you don't think very highly of the Blues, you don't see how anyone else could.

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Old
08-11-2004, 11:41 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
To Florida
Pronger
Keenan loves this guy, he would be great with J-Bo.

to the Blues
Weiss
Krajicek
Horton
1st round pick
pronger is al most 30 and if i was fla i would not do it, no way in hell.pronger has been on stlousi for years and they are a playoff team and he has done absolutley nothing to get them anywhere in the playoffs. all he is god for is a big body that can put up some points . he wont take fla anywhere. plus he is to expensive

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Old
08-11-2004, 11:43 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little a from da bx
pronger is al most 30 and if i was fla i would not do it, no way in hell.pronger has been on stlousi for years and they are a playoff team and he has done absolutley nothing to get them anywhere in the playoffs. all he is god for is a big body that can put up some points . he wont take fla anywhere. plus he is to expensive
The Blues also haven't have Roberto Luongo in goal.

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08-11-2004, 11:54 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
To Boston: Chris Pronger, Colin Hemingway and a 1st

To St. Louis: Joe Thornton
Harry Sinden wouldn't pay $10million to have God on his team!

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Old
08-11-2004, 11:54 AM
  #58
little a from da bx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
The Blues also haven't have Roberto Luongo in goal.
sorry man that quote confuses me a bit, i dont get it.............. "haven't have "--what the hell does that mean

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08-11-2004, 11:56 AM
  #59
oil slick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
And this is exactly what you entire argument (or lack thereof) boils down to. Because you don't think very highly of the Blues, you don't see how anyone else could.
You misunderstood me. You said "Is it because you don't think highly of the Blues? ", and I replied "not at all", meaning that I think the Blues are a fine team.

The rest of my post lists my reasons, which basically boils down to the fact that the number of players who say they will sign for less to stay in a city is far less than the number that actually do. The only way I believe that a player will actually do this, is when he has signed a contract for less than his market value.


Last edited by oil slick: 08-11-2004 at 11:59 AM.
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Old
08-11-2004, 12:22 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little a from da bx
sorry man that quote confuses me a bit, i dont get it.............. "haven't have "--what the hell does that mean
Are you not smart enough to figure out that I obviously meant "haven't had"?

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08-11-2004, 12:24 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
The only way I believe that a player will actually do this, is when he has signed a contract for less than his market value.
That's fair enough... I guess living in St Louis where I've seen it happen a number of times between our three teams I'm more inclined to accept that there's a good possibility of it.

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08-11-2004, 12:28 PM
  #62
oil slick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
That's fair enough... I guess living in St Louis where I've seen it happen a number of times between our three teams I'm more inclined to accept that there's a good possibility of it.
Nice - an argument ends amicably.

Maybe it's having to deal with the last 10 years of being an Oiler fan, but I guess I'm just far more cynical about players motives... although it does make me warm and fuzzy when a player signs for less.

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Old
08-11-2004, 12:43 PM
  #63
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I can see Lamourello in the mix on this one. With their being a really good chance that Stevens will be gone after this year(eventhough he is still valuable) ther is 6 million freed up. Now depending on the outcome of the Neidermayer situation they could lose him too. Lou will not pay big bucks for offense, but he does for defense.

To NJronger
ToSt.Louis.Friesen, Hale, Ahonen, 2nd rounder

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Old
08-11-2004, 03:32 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangible_faith
I can see Lamourello in the mix on this one. With their being a really good chance that Stevens will be gone after this year(eventhough he is still valuable) ther is 6 million freed up. Now depending on the outcome of the Neidermayer situation they could lose him too. Lou will not pay big bucks for offense, but he does for defense.

To NJronger
ToSt.Louis.Friesen, Hale, Ahonen, 2nd rounder
Blues probably wouldn't do a deal with New Jersey.. after the trade... the Blues will probably be forced to give up 10 first rounders just because the NHL thinks the Devils took in to much salary...

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Old
08-11-2004, 05:37 PM
  #65
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My two cents on this is keep Pronger.

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08-11-2004, 10:44 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
In that situation, the Blues would be looking at a very similar dilemma the Rangers just faced (and the Caps faced with Gonchar). Take a clearly difficient 'talent' package but a big cost savings? Or hold onto the player? Both NYR and Washington, hardly cash poor teams, moved the players and saved $5-6 million a year in payroll and got back some decent prospects in the exchange. I fail to see why the Blues, faced with a similar scenario, would be able to do any better for Pronger.
Unlike Jagr, Pronger is in demand. If the Blues eat salary they would get a great return. Taking on Kasperitis is the equivalent of eating $4m in salary. They eat that much and they would get team lining up to throw multiple 1st rounders at them.

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08-11-2004, 10:48 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by guitaraholic
5 or 6 teams would make for a fine bidding war, driving up his trade value.
5 or 6 teams if he was a UFA. He isn't, having to give up prospects and $10m is going to cull the number of possible buyers to just 2 or 3. Then that assumed those 2 or 3 want to go in that direction.

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08-12-2004, 10:49 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
Unlike Jagr, Pronger is in demand. If the Blues eat salary they would get a great return. Taking on Kasperitis is the equivalent of eating $4m in salary. They eat that much and they would get team lining up to throw multiple 1st rounders at them.
I wasn't using Jagr as an example.

I was using Leetch (and to a lesser extent Gonchar).

Gonchar, in my mind, was worth a little more. You of course can disagree, but I figured that the games premiere offensive defenseman, roughly the same age as Pronger, and signed to a contract that pays him, even after his arbitration award, about half of what the big Blue gets... now factor in Pronger's recent injury history.... well you get the idea. I'm not saying it's slam dunk, but given a choice between the two, I know who I'd have been looking for.

So what did Gonchar get the Caps? A late 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder in a week draft year, and Shaone Morrison, a solid young defensemen, but hardly a world-beater.

Now slot in Leetch, who I think has about the same value as Pronger (significantly cheaper contract, both players will become UFA in the same year, so the age difference is of limited concern. The acquiring team only gets 12-ish months of the defensemen in the deal, after which they end up bidding for his services just like everyone else. Over the ensuing 12 months, Pronger is going to cost a LOT more than Leetch... more than making up for any difference in their quality of play, at least if you ask me.)

So, again, what did Leetch get the Rangers? A late 1st rounder in a week draft and a 2nd rounder in a slightly better draft, and two b-level prospects. Do you think the drowning in cash Rangers didn't offer to pick up some of Leetch's salary to boost his value around the league? You bet your ass they did. Hell, they paid every cent of Nedved's salary (about a million US) to get something out of Edmonton for him. So to be honest I don't really find the argument that the Blues could eat some of Prongers salary compelling.

Honestly, the economics of the 'new' NHL are just hard to escape. There is no way the Blues will get talent value for Pronger and his mega-contract. It's just the way of the world these days....

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08-12-2004, 11:34 PM
  #69
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HHHMMM
How about To: St louis Mats Sundin
Tomas Kaberle
+2nd round pick

To:Toronto Chris Pronger

Personal decision Id do this deal all most the same silly contract.Center's are easier to replace then big defensive stars like pronger.What do u guys think?

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08-13-2004, 12:32 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desperateblue
HHHMMM
How about To: St louis Mats Sundin
Tomas Kaberle
+2nd round pick

To:Toronto Chris Pronger

Personal decision Id do this deal all most the same silly contract.Center's are easier to replace then big defensive stars like pronger.What do u guys think?
why would St.Louis do this? It doesn't help them rebuild and it doesn't help them reduce payroll.

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08-13-2004, 05:50 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55

So what did Gonchar get the Caps? A late 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder in a week draft year, and Shaone Morrison, a solid young defensemen, but hardly a world-beater.
Your original offer was

Kasparaitis, 2nd, 3rd, 2 low level prospect for Pronger

The 3rd and 2 weak prospects will probably amount to nothing or very little, so that isn't much of an offer. Only the 2nd would hold much interest to the Blues. And Kasp is way overpayed, he's a negative value (the Rangers should be eating salary just to get rid of him).

The Gonchar deal much better and Washington didn't get shafted with an overpaid salary dump like Kasparaitis. Morrison & the 1st should be players and the 2nd is decent pick.
is much better than offer than 2nd, 3rd, and

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08-13-2004, 11:34 AM
  #72
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If I was Philly I would seriously consider acquiring Pronger. He's just the guy they need, a #1 D-man.

To STL: Carter, Richards, 1st 05
To PHI: Pronger

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08-13-2004, 10:55 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
Your original offer was

Kasparaitis, 2nd, 3rd, 2 low level prospect for Pronger

The 3rd and 2 weak prospects will probably amount to nothing or very little, so that isn't much of an offer. Only the 2nd would hold much interest to the Blues. And Kasp is way overpayed, he's a negative value (the Rangers should be eating salary just to get rid of him).

The Gonchar deal much better and Washington didn't get shafted with an overpaid salary dump like Kasparaitis. Morrison & the 1st should be players and the 2nd is decent pick.
is much better than offer than 2nd, 3rd, and
No, the Gonchar deal wasn't much better. The Gonchar deal was a low first (in the mid-20's), a low second (in the fifties? sixties? I don't even know) in what everyone agreed was a top heavy draft with limited depth, and a solid B+ young player.

My offer was a high second (almost certainly in the 30's) a high third (seventies? eighties? in that range depending on just how awful the Rangers are) in a stronger draft year, along with two solid B-prospects to replace the B+ young player.

Now, yes, the Gonchar offer is 'better', but Gonchar was/is worth more. Don't believe me? Gonchar was being paid less than half what Pronger costs. Even after winning his arbitration case, he's still $4.5 million cheaper a season that Pronger. He also doesn't have the injury concerns that Pronger does, and while he's nowhere-near the physical prescense, he's also a vastly superior offensive force, and they were both born in 1974. And they both log huge minutes for whatever team they play for.

Kaspar's salary is there to balance out the salary difference between the two players, but while he is no super-star, he is a very solid 4th defenseman/agitator who can be counted on for 16-18 minutes a night of blood and guts hockey. He has value, even if his participation in this deal is primarily as an economic counterweight.

So, salary's being equal (with the Blues taking Kaspar) I figure the 'straight' value of the two players is fairly equal. Pronger has more upside, but more injuries. So start off with a basically equal offer, then adjust it slightly downwards because of Pronger's 'risk' factor, and because the dealing team acquires the still useful Kaspar.

And here we arrive where I began.

Pronger is worth less than Gonchar.

Pronger is worth slightly more than Leetch.

Pronger is worth a draft pick between 20 and 40, a draft pick between 60 and 80, and two b-prospects provided his salary is brought down.

At his current stratospheric cost, he's virtually immovable.

Welcome to the new NHL.

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08-13-2004, 11:28 PM
  #74
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We would never trade both Carter and Richards at the same time. Even if one of them doesn't pan out at all, we will have a star center in the next few years. We need a scoring winger way more than a stud d-man, although a player of Chris Pronger's caliber is always welcomed.

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08-14-2004, 07:50 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
No, the Gonchar deal wasn't much better. The Gonchar deal was a low first (in the mid-20's), a low second (in the fifties? sixties? I don't even know) in what everyone agreed was a top heavy draft with limited depth, and a solid B+ young player.

My offer was a high second (almost certainly in the 30's) a high third (seventies? eighties? in that range depending on just how awful the Rangers are) in a stronger draft year, along with two solid B-prospects to replace the B+ young player.

Now, yes, the Gonchar offer is 'better', but Gonchar was/is worth more. Don't believe me? Gonchar was being paid less than half what Pronger costs. Even after winning his arbitration case, he's still $4.5 million cheaper a season that Pronger. He also doesn't have the injury concerns that Pronger does, and while he's nowhere-near the physical prescense, he's also a vastly superior offensive force, and they were both born in 1974. And they both log huge minutes for whatever team they play for.

Kaspar's salary is there to balance out the salary difference between the two players, but while he is no super-star, he is a very solid 4th defenseman/agitator who can be counted on for 16-18 minutes a night of blood and guts hockey. He has value, even if his participation in this deal is primarily as an economic counterweight.

So, salary's being equal (with the Blues taking Kaspar) I figure the 'straight' value of the two players is fairly equal. Pronger has more upside, but more injuries. So start off with a basically equal offer, then adjust it slightly downwards because of Pronger's 'risk' factor, and because the dealing team acquires the still useful Kaspar.

And here we arrive where I began.

Pronger is worth less than Gonchar.

Pronger is worth slightly more than Leetch.

Pronger is worth a draft pick between 20 and 40, a draft pick between 60 and 80, and two b-prospects provided his salary is brought down.

At his current stratospheric cost, he's virtually immovable.

Welcome to the new NHL.


To say that Gonchar is more valuable than Pronger is simply incorrect. YOu wouldn't/can't find a single GM in the league that would take Gonchar over Pronger. Not one. So your premise is wrong and your points rendered therefore moot.
Anyone who thinks Gonchar is better or more desirable by teams than Pronger simply lacks an understanding the NHL whether they call it the "new NHL" or the old one. Either way, you're just wrong.

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