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Old
01-13-2012, 01:08 PM
  #51
Cin
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Since when is calling a generic 4th liner a generic 4th liner hate?
Probably because there are two games being played apparently. Wandell has been playing really, really well.

The standards some fo you have for these players is ludicrous.

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01-13-2012, 01:35 PM
  #52
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^^ Exactly.

When people say he's a waste of a roster spot and they expect him to put up big points is when it becomes hate.

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01-13-2012, 01:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Since when is calling a generic 4th liner a generic 4th liner hate?
But he's not a generic 4th liner. That should be obvious.

Jake Dowell is a generic 4th liner. Toby Petersen is a generic 4th liner. They have no above average hockey skills.

Wandell has above-average speed, above-average puckhandling ability, above-average checking ability, above-average PKing ability.

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01-13-2012, 01:47 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
But he's not a generic 4th liner. That should be obvious.

Jake Dowell is a generic 4th liner. Toby Petersen is a generic 4th liner. They have no above average hockey skills.

Wandell has above-average speed, above-average puckhandling ability, above-average checking ability, above-average PKing ability.
The low standards that some of you have for these players is ridiculous.

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01-13-2012, 02:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ScubaSteve View Post
The low standards that some of you have for these players is ridiculous.
What would you like Wandell to do realistically?

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01-13-2012, 02:55 PM
  #56
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So Wandell is either a legit top 6 forward or a generic 4th liner, is that what the debate has devolved into?

What Tom Wandell is not at this point in his career is a player who makes those around him better. You know who else doesn't make those around him better?...players like Michael Ryder. Guys like that are necessary on any team but you don't put lesser players with them and ask them to lead the charge offensively. The standards around here are oddly skewed. Either Wandell should be the offensive catalyst for a top 2 line or he's healthy scratch fodder - this is beyond ********. Wandell is a complimentary player who is at worst a legitimate 3rd line checking winger. I have given up on him becoming a number one or number two player on a line counted on to produce offense, but that doesn't mean that he can't be a fine third player on a scoring line. He wins puck battles along the boards, he handles the puck well, he can cycle the puck well as a result of those assets, and he draws penalties because of his speed and puck control.

To this point in his career he has never had "above average" linemates and his production mirrors that. What the past handful of games have shown is that he's not an offensive black hole like some around here have been saying for the past two years. He doesn't drag down offensively talented players like Benn and Loui like a generic 4th liner would (i.e. Petersen and Dowell). People really need to moderate and re-calibrate expectations around here.

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01-13-2012, 03:12 PM
  #57
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He also doesn't bring anything that says he should displace any of the top-line guys, though, or even the third line guys at this point. He's average defensively, decent PK and fast, but he's not gritty enough or a good enough checker to be on the third line, he doesn't bring the "make the other team crazy"/faceoff guru/checking factor of Ott, and he doesn't bring the offense of Benn, Ribeiro, Ryder, Eriksson or Morrow.

On this team, when it's healthy, he's a fourth-liner with third-line upside. His recent goals have been flukey deflections or tap ins, which count all the same but don't demonstrate a lot of offensive skill. He hasn't really set his wingers up.

Trying to draw a parallel between him and Ryder is absurd because Ryder is a sniper, and Wandell is not. Without any outstanding attribute other than his speed, Wandell has to be able to make others around him better because he's shown his speed alone is not enough to make him an offensive force.

Look, I don't mind the guy. But I also think he's grossly overrated in the minds of some because of his flashy speed. If this team didn't have a very solid third line with chemistry, I wouldn't mind trying him there. But it's not worth breaking up the Nystrom-Fiddler-Dvorak trio to put him there, either.

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01-13-2012, 04:24 PM
  #58
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If we could get a fourth line of Wandells, I'd be overjoyed. He's the perfect fourth-liner IMO. Good enough to move up and down the lineup, can slot in anywhere, and has decent all-around tools. Tbh, I actually see a bit of Ott in him, just without the character, physicality and grittiness. Fast, decent puck-handling, not someone you count on for offense, but can still pot 15-20 with good line mates. No idea why anyone would want him gone, unless he asks for a ridiculous price tag.

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Old
01-13-2012, 04:32 PM
  #59
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I don't think anyone wants him gone so much as they see him as easily replaceable if necessary and not worth clearing out people ahead of him on the depth chart to give him more minutes.

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01-13-2012, 06:09 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Trying to draw a parallel between him and Ryder is absurd because Ryder is a sniper, and Wandell is not. Without any outstanding attribute other than his speed, Wandell has to be able to make others around him better because he's shown his speed alone is not enough to make him an offensive force.
What is absurd is reading words without trying to understand the spirit in which they were used. Specific attributes notwithstanding there absolutely is a correlation to be made between the two. If Ryder is any higher than the third best player on a line than that line either A) needs a dominant player to make the one-two punch of he and Ryder dangerous, or B) isn't a very dangerous offensive line. You have said for ages that Wandell is an "offensive black hole" (yeah, my earlier use of that phrase was directed at your Otter) which is complete and utter b.s. He has NEVER been given an opportunity to play with offensively talented players for long enough to develop chemistry or get into the rhythm of playing more minutes. Miraculously, even though he's not picking the top corner or setting up his linemates for empty net tap-ins, he has been producing when paired with one of Benn or Loui. So yeah, those guys are great players and yeah, a guy should put up more points when given the opportunity to play with them, but good god the point is that he's not dragging them down to a lower than usual level. He's playing the part of complimentary player quite well.

And for the record, I may have drawn a parallel between Wandell and Ryder but it should be pretty obvious that I didn't say the two are equal players, which you implied by your wording. You're also selling him extremely short in the defensive and puckhandling aspects of the game as well as underselling the importance of his kind of speed and what it can do to the opposition when they know his next pass will not be going in the direction of Toby freaking Petersen or Jake Dowell.

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01-13-2012, 06:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
But he's not a generic 4th liner. That should be obvious.

Jake Dowell is a generic 4th liner. Toby Petersen is a generic 4th liner. They have no above average hockey skills.

Wandell has above-average speed, above-average puckhandling ability, above-average checking ability, above-average PKing ability.
Above average? What are you using as your average?

I still don't see how it is so insulting to say he is an average 4th liner.

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01-13-2012, 06:58 PM
  #62
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I read it as an implication that Wandell should be given an equal chance as Ryder to succeed, which is silly because Wandell doesn't bring nearly as much to the table. Once Wandell develops the best wrister on the team, go ahead and try him up there.

And Ott and Wandell are also not comparable. Ott makes his linemates better via faceoffs, puck pursuit, backchecking and that uncanny knack to get every opponent focused on murdering him.

Wandell is an average defensive player who is fast but sometimes positionally suspect (and prone to atrocious neutral zone turnovers). He will draw penalties with his speed, but he has yet to turn it into consistent offensive production. His biggest flaw is that his feet get ahead of his brain and hands and he doesn't know what to do with the great position he gains via his speed until the moment has passed.

I don't know what the problem is with calling him a fourth liner with third-line upside. You need some of those guys, and he's a pretty solid one.

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01-13-2012, 07:49 PM
  #63
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Saying that Ott makes his linemates better because of faceoff abilities and puck pursuit is a quite generous use of the term. Ott's shenanigans are supremely overrated as well; I don't buy that he gets players or coaches off their game to any more than a minimal degree. Most think he's a joke in that regard.

Faceoff abilities aside I would put Wandell's defensive positioning and overall effectiveness up against Ott's any day, especially five on five though I will concede that Ott is the more valuable penalty killer.

There's nothing wrong with saying Wandell is a fourth liner with third line upside, in fact my earlier post agrees with that position to a degree. I only chimed in because (as so many debates do) this discussion became more and more about arguing opposite ends of the spectrum - top six big time producer vs generic 4th liner worthy of being healthy scratched on a routine basis. We can debate specific players on this specific team and how they specifically fit into its overall efficiency, but when talking about one specific player (as in a Tom Wandell thread) my own personal opinion is that those are two separate discussions. Until or unless we find a more true blue top six forward, the addition of Wandell to the chemistry experiment is one worth exploring in my opinion.

On the topic of this particular team and its makeup I tend to think that a top six group of forwards consisting of Benn, Eriksson, Ribeiro, Ryder, Ott, and Wandell combined in any number of ways would be preferable to Morrow being in the mix. At this point the difference between Morrow and Ott is negligible and having both in the top six is semi-redundant given the physicality that Benn brings party.

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01-13-2012, 07:55 PM
  #64
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On the topic of this particular team and its makeup I tend to think that a top six group of forwards consisting of Benn, Eriksson, Ribeiro, Ryder, Ott, and Wandell combined in any number of ways would be preferable to Morrow being in the mix. At this point the difference between Morrow and Ott is negligible and having both in the top six is semi-redundant given the physicality that Benn brings party.
Agreed completely, Morrow would be a perfect 3rd line grinder this season. He's not a top 6 player this year.

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01-13-2012, 10:59 PM
  #65
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He reminds me a lot of Rich Peverley.

Players like Wandell are 4th liners on a championship-caliber team, but I think we can all agree we're nowhere near that level.

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01-13-2012, 11:08 PM
  #66
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Ott makes his teammates better? hahahaha good one Kritter.

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01-13-2012, 11:23 PM
  #67
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Ott makes his teammates better? hahahaha good one Kritter.
Well he does give them more ice time while sitting in the penalty box.

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01-14-2012, 04:22 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
There's nothing wrong with saying Wandell is a fourth liner with third line upside, in fact my earlier post agrees with that position to a degree. I only chimed in because (as so many debates do) this discussion became more and more about arguing opposite ends of the spectrum - top six big time producer vs generic 4th liner worthy of being healthy scratched on a routine basis.
Has anyone said he is worthy of being a regular scratch?

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01-14-2012, 05:35 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Has anyone said he is worthy of being a regular scratch?
My definition of "routine basis" in this circumstance is being scratched once every two or three games, as was happening with Wandell early in the season. "Regular scratch" to me is someone who is consistently the odd man out unless someone in the top 12 gets injured or does something boneheaded to deserve a sit. To that end, a "generic 4th liner" is a guy worthy of being scratched once every two or three games, i.e. Dowell, Petersen.

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01-15-2012, 07:01 PM
  #70
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Benn out

With Benn out, Wandell isnt the only one that needs to pick it up. It will be his chance to shine or fail.

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01-15-2012, 07:06 PM
  #71
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Both guys brought up recently on this thread - Ott and Wandell - need to step up. They'll be the top two centers. *single emo tear*

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01-16-2012, 10:46 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
So Wandell is either a legit top 6 forward or a generic 4th liner, is that what the debate has devolved into?

What Tom Wandell is not at this point in his career is a player who makes those around him better. You know who else doesn't make those around him better?...players like Michael Ryder. Guys like that are necessary on any team but you don't put lesser players with them and ask them to lead the charge offensively. The standards around here are oddly skewed. Either Wandell should be the offensive catalyst for a top 2 line or he's healthy scratch fodder - this is beyond ********. Wandell is a complimentary player who is at worst a legitimate 3rd line checking winger. I have given up on him becoming a number one or number two player on a line counted on to produce offense, but that doesn't mean that he can't be a fine third player on a scoring line. He wins puck battles along the boards, he handles the puck well, he can cycle the puck well as a result of those assets, and he draws penalties because of his speed and puck control.

To this point in his career he has never had "above average" linemates and his production mirrors that. What the past handful of games have shown is that he's not an offensive black hole like some around here have been saying for the past two years. He doesn't drag down offensively talented players like Benn and Loui like a generic 4th liner would (i.e. Petersen and Dowell). People really need to moderate and re-calibrate expectations around here.
Very educated hockey fan and smart too! More surprisingly this fan comes from Dallas.

*runs and hides* I complimented you! Focus on the positives!

Love the realistic nature of your post. My perception of the player fits basically with your analysis of him.

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01-16-2012, 10:55 PM
  #73
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Both guys brought up recently on this thread - Ott and Wandell - need to step up. They'll be the top two centers. *single emo tear*
Don't you hate when your bottom guys become your top guys due to injury default? I remember when the Pens top two centermen last season were basically Letestu and Talbot. During our big 12 game win streak when we had 4 of our 9 guys out, including Crosby/Malkin/Staal, we had that Rupp/Adams/Asham line as our most consistent production line. ugh

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01-16-2012, 11:05 PM
  #74
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Don't you hate when your bottom guys become your top guys due to injury default? I remember when the Pens top two centermen last season were basically Letestu and Talbot. During our big 12 game win streak when we had 4 of our 9 guys out, including Crosby/Malkin/Staal, we had that Rupp/Adams/Asham line as our most consistent production line. ugh
That must suck.

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01-16-2012, 11:47 PM
  #75
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That must suck.
What I got out of it is that they were on a ridiculous streak without their superstars. If Pittsburgh could do it with almost no depth, why can't we, but with depth?

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