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Cox: Burke, Anthopoulos share a vision

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Old
08-19-2011, 05:39 PM
  #76
The Man in White
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Cox is a tool. I've never seen anyone flip flop on his writing as much as this guy. He should be a politician. Atleast Simmons is a ****** all the time. Cox'll change his opinion after each win or loss.

No one should take anything he says seriously.

As for the discussion at hand; AA is a MUCH better GM than Burkie. It's not even close really. He's kept the team competitive while improving the farm system from ~25th to top 5 in the Majors while adding frontline players to the pro team (Lawrie, Rasmus, Esco) and resigning a top 3 player in Baseball to a very VERY generous contract.

Not only this, but his ability to circumvent the system is uncanny. Whether it be using draft pick compensation from FAs or his team options or buying out FA years to extend years on a contract, he's on top of things. Compare this to Burke's refusal to circumvent anything due to his "code of honour" regarding RFAs.

It's clear who the better GM is.

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08-19-2011, 05:45 PM
  #77
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Compare this to Burke's refusal to circumvent anything due to his "code of honour" regarding RFAs.
He doesn't have a "code of honour" outside of letting the GM know beforehard whether he will offer-sheet to try and work out a deal. And it leads to strengthened trade relationships. As evidenced by the Kaberle trade.

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08-19-2011, 05:51 PM
  #78
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An article not toying with Leafs fans? This is new from Cox.

Anyways, tbh I think Anthopolous is doing a better job with the Blue Jays, than Burke is with the Leafs at the moment.

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08-19-2011, 06:07 PM
  #79
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The Jays have a ridiculously good farm system that should supplement the team with high-end talent (Think Gose, McGuire, D'Arnaud, Marisnick, Syndergaard, etc, the list goes on and on) for years to come. The Leafs have an above-average prospect pool, but there aren't as many blue chippers.

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08-19-2011, 06:13 PM
  #80
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To be frank, there's a big difference between being competitive in baseball and being competitive in hockey. There's a question of definition here, because it seems to me that the Jays aren't really THAT competitive, considering they get blown away by their division rivals every year.

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08-19-2011, 06:30 PM
  #81
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I'm not dismissing Burke's work, infact he's done a better job than most leaf GM's in the past in re-energizing the franchise. I just think AA and Burke are two world's apart in the effectiveness, efficiency and quality of the improvements on either team.

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08-19-2011, 06:51 PM
  #82
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Burke has done a good job overall but AA has done a great fantastic job and people already talk about him as one of the best and sharpest GM's around the league.

Burke has done a good job amassing a good amount of talent when you consider how little he had to work with.

But when AA took over, Jays had among the worst farm much like the Leafs but he's made great trades like getting Yunel Escobar who is an elite shortstop, AA also traded for Colby Rasmus who could potentially be a superstar. AA also traded Marcum (a good but not great pitcher with health issues) for Lawrie who could potentially be a star or superstar as well. He traded a reliever and an average prospect for a player with potential to be an ace. AA, even when he wasn't a GM got JP to claim and trade for Jose Bautista, currently the best player in the bigs. He dumped Wells contract which was arguably the worst in the league and he is having a historically bad season. He hasn't made any bad signings and made fantastic trades. In fact, his signings have been brilliant. They have been buy low options on guys like Alex Gonzalez whom he managed to trade for one of the best shortstops in the league and some of the signings he's made, he's turned those into picks because of Type A and Type B free agent. Due to that, he's been stock up the farm even more.

I'll admit Burke has done well. Dion trade was epic. Beauchemin trade was awesome, Kaberle trade was fantastic, Versteeg trade for great as well especially since we gave up very little and sold him for more. His signings of macArthur was fantastic. But at the same time, Komisarek signing was awful and Kessel trade was not good because the leafs didn't make the playoffs and ended up giving up a massive amount of talent. For some odd reason, he hasn't fired Wilson either. Maybe it's just my opinion but he's been terrible and hasn't done anything to not get fired.

Overall, both of them have done a good job but so far, AA has been better.

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08-19-2011, 07:03 PM
  #83
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Does anyone understand the difference between a comparison of philosophy and a comparison of gm'ing skills? What Cox is trying to say is that they both have similar traits, in that they both traded for project players who had some issues on prior teams and are going for a youth movement. Cox isn't saying Burke>AA or AA>Burke, he is merely comparing some of the moves they have made and the philosophy they seem to be going with.

I find it stupid that some of you are bashing burke and cox because Cox merely pointed out a few similarities between the teams GM's. Honestly, some of the Leaf bashing in the Jays thread is laughable, since this is the LEAF board, especially those that think they are better than other Leaf fans because they watch the Jays or something. Cox even points out that the Jays are in better position but that's obviously ignored in favour of Burke bashing.

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08-19-2011, 07:16 PM
  #84
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I don't know enough about the Jays (although I am getting there) to make a comment on AA. Burke has done a great job in some areas, but not so good in others. He has injected youth into our organization, added depth to lots of areas and made our organization a wanted destination for free agents. But his biggest failure came in his early stages of the organization where he tried to make this team a winner right away. He went out and acquired big ticket players without properly assessing this team, losing out on a big opportunity to get a possible franchise player that this team and city needs. But with that move it also may have helped a deal (the Phaneuf Deal) take place that may not have happened without Kessel which is another move that could define this team. Burke's next big move IMO is to look at this team and see that it is one that may have a strength on defense and not on offense and go out and acquire a coach that can take advantage of that. Having a defensive system (instead of run and gun), with the players that are in our system I think we could really see an improvement in our side.

Burke just got off to a slow start, he is on a role lately though.


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08-19-2011, 07:23 PM
  #85
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I think its safe to say that Toronto is lucky to have both of them, they both are smart and have shown their abilities. With that said I think that AA has had fewer mistakes so as ridiculous as it is to compare different sports I would say that he's performed at a higher level. Still, good things for Toronto.

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08-19-2011, 07:50 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
I would go so far to say that AA is such a superior GM that I would prefere him to run the Leaf's over Burke, despite the fact that he has no previous history in Hockey, based solely on the philosphy in which he builds his franchises. Burke is best suited to go GM the Yankee's where his loud mouth media hogging and throwing around prospects for an instant fix would be the norm.
What good prospects has Burke traded?

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08-19-2011, 07:51 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
Burke has done a good job overall but AA has done a great fantastic job and people already talk about him as one of the best and sharpest GM's around the league.

Burke has done a good job amassing a good amount of talent when you consider how little he had to work with.

But when AA took over, Jays had among the worst farm much like the Leafs but he's made great trades like getting Yunel Escobar who is an elite shortstop, AA also traded for Colby Rasmus who could potentially be a superstar. AA also traded Marcum (a good but not great pitcher with health issues) for Lawrie who could potentially be a star or superstar as well. He traded a reliever and an average prospect for a player with potential to be an ace. AA, even when he wasn't a GM got JP to claim and trade for Jose Bautista, currently the best player in the bigs. He dumped Wells contract which was arguably the worst in the league and he is having a historically bad season. He hasn't made any bad signings and made fantastic trades. In fact, his signings have been brilliant. They have been buy low options on guys like Alex Gonzalez whom he managed to trade for one of the best shortstops in the league and some of the signings he's made, he's turned those into picks because of Type A and Type B free agent. Due to that, he's been stock up the farm even more.

I'll admit Burke has done well. Dion trade was epic. Beauchemin trade was awesome, Kaberle trade was fantastic, Versteeg trade for great as well especially since we gave up very little and sold him for more. His signings of macArthur was fantastic. But at the same time, Komisarek signing was awful and Kessel trade was not good because the leafs didn't make the playoffs and ended up giving up a massive amount of talent. For some odd reason, he hasn't fired Wilson either. Maybe it's just my opinion but he's been terrible and hasn't done anything to not get fired.

Overall, both of them have done a good job but so far, AA has been better.
Summed up my thoughts perfectly. AA seems to be more patient which is a huge plus.

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08-19-2011, 07:59 PM
  #88
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Summed up my thoughts perfectly. AA seems to be more patient which is a huge plus.
JFJ was patient. Sometimes you want the GM to have the guts to make big moves, even if they turn out bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamal007
Does anyone understand the difference between a comparison of philosophy and a comparison of gm'ing skills? What Cox is trying to say is that they both have similar traits, in that they both traded for project players who had some issues on prior teams and are going for a youth movement. Cox isn't saying Burke>AA or AA>Burke, he is merely comparing some of the moves they have made and the philosophy they seem to be going with.

I find it stupid that some of you are bashing burke and cox because Cox merely pointed out a few similarities between the teams GM's. Honestly, some of the Leaf bashing in the Jays thread is laughable, since this is the LEAF board, especially those that think they are better than other Leaf fans because they watch the Jays or something. Cox even points out that the Jays are in better position but that's obviously ignored in favour of Burke bashing.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Cox isn't saying GM 1 is better than GM 2, he's pointing out that both AA and Burke tend to make similar sorts of moves, like picking up out of favour players and stocking up the minor system with good depth. Then there's the fact that they tend to periodically discuss strategy (I believe that was mentioned in a prior article, and BC gets involved periodically as well).

Fact is, AA > Riccardi, and Burke > JFJ. It's hard to compare GM's across sports, though.

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08-19-2011, 08:05 PM
  #89
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Burke has done a good job overall but AA has done a great fantastic job and people already talk about him as one of the best and sharpest GM's around the league.

Burke has done a good job amassing a good amount of talent when you consider how little he had to work with.

But when AA took over, Jays had among the worst farm much like the Leafs but he's made great trades like getting Yunel Escobar who is an elite shortstop, AA also traded for Colby Rasmus who could potentially be a superstar. AA also traded Marcum (a good but not great pitcher with health issues) for Lawrie who could potentially be a star or superstar as well. He traded a reliever and an average prospect for a player with potential to be an ace. AA, even when he wasn't a GM got JP to claim and trade for Jose Bautista, currently the best player in the bigs. He dumped Wells contract which was arguably the worst in the league and he is having a historically bad season. He hasn't made any bad signings and made fantastic trades. In fact, his signings have been brilliant. They have been buy low options on guys like Alex Gonzalez whom he managed to trade for one of the best shortstops in the league and some of the signings he's made, he's turned those into picks because of Type A and Type B free agent. Due to that, he's been stock up the farm even more.

I'll admit Burke has done well. Dion trade was epic. Beauchemin trade was awesome, Kaberle trade was fantastic, Versteeg trade for great as well especially since we gave up very little and sold him for more. His signings of macArthur was fantastic. But at the same time, Komisarek signing was awful and Kessel trade was not good because the leafs didn't make the playoffs and ended up giving up a massive amount of talent. For some odd reason, he hasn't fired Wilson either. Maybe it's just my opinion but he's been terrible and hasn't done anything to not get fired.

Overall, both of them have done a good job but so far, AA has been better.
It is just your opinion because you hold the Leafs at a different standard to the Jays. Wilson hasn't been fired because of the growth and development of the young players Schenn, Grabovski, Kulemin etc.. make no mistake while so many fall victim into thinking Burke is all about the quick fix the plan isn't any different to the Jays and that's to put together a good young team together and have them grow into a contender. Wilson has a track record in turning teams around when they're in transition and successfully developed young teams into contenders problem is Leaf Nation and there instant gratification not willing to see things through and Wilson has been unfairly ripped IMO.

The Kessel trade isn't bad because Kessel as we speak is the best player from the trade who was 22 years old at the time of the trade. 5 years from now maybe that will change and I stress maybe because people put the cart a head of the horse when it comes to prospects rather baseball or hockey as guaranties to be players of significance.

This is why the popular belief that the Jays and AA are doing a better job when they've backed it up with little substance as a team other than hype, it's all one big hype machine with prospects when it comes to the Jays and I've learned a long time ago to don't believe the hype as a guaranty. Let it be what it becomes, not saying to not be excited get excited all we want but lets not believe that all this suppose talent is of significant quality before they do a damn thing. With the Jays were talking about a team that has blown how many saves? Has 2 proven Pitchers that's it rather starting or in the pen. The bats are looking impressive but still way too early to believe the hype... remember Phelps, Hinskie etc.? Drabek and Snider were the organizations top prospects to start the year seems to me the star has fallen on them because of struggles and now we're believing in the others as guaranties and are starting to turn a cold shoulder on these 2. Doesn't seem to be that much a better situation to the Leafs now does it?

Anyway you want to put it the Jays and Leafs are sitting at the same spot in there development as a team of there perspective sport so why is it believed that AA has done a better Job? Could it be true that the Leafs as an organization under Burke is being unappreciated especially the turn over Burke has done with this team from prospects in JR hockey all the way to the NHL itself where we're constantly living with the view that the grass is greener on the other side when it comes to the Leafs?

I think so, I guess we'll have to wait and see who's plan translate into contender status ironically it's both the same plan.

AA just wasted a 1st round pick on a player that wasn't going to sign, the player himself set letters out to all teams that he wasn't going to sign yet AA still used the pick on him. If Burke did something like that with the Leafs there would be a witch hunt so why the double standard?

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08-19-2011, 08:10 PM
  #90
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Does anyone understand the difference between a comparison of philosophy and a comparison of gm'ing skills? What Cox is trying to say is that they both have similar traits, in that they both traded for project players who had some issues on prior teams and are going for a youth movement. Cox isn't saying Burke>AA or AA>Burke, he is merely comparing some of the moves they have made and the philosophy they seem to be going with.

I find it stupid that some of you are bashing burke and cox because Cox merely pointed out a few similarities between the teams GM's. Honestly, some of the Leaf bashing in the Jays thread is laughable, since this is the LEAF board, especially those that think they are better than other Leaf fans because they watch the Jays or something. Cox even points out that the Jays are in better position but that's obviously ignored in favour of Burke bashing.
They both are two totally different people, the comparison thus does not work. One GM is bigger than his team, the other is low-key. Imagine if someone said the Leafs are spying on other teams, can you imagine the press conference Burke would have?
Point is they are two totally different people with personalities and different ideas on building a contending team.

If you want to say they both are going with the youth movement, then you can also make the comparison to 10 other teams. In the article, he literally compares the moves of both GM's in a similar fashion. It does not work, not to mention they are totally different sports.

Even with that said, it's nice to see a change in the Toronto media these days with an attempt at being insightful.

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08-19-2011, 08:13 PM
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This is why the popular belief that the Jays and AA are doing a better job when they've backed it up with little substance as a team other than hype, it's all one big hype machine with prospects when it comes to the Jays and I've learned a long time ago to don't believe the hype as a guaranty. Let it be what it becomes, not saying to not be excited get excited all we want but lets not believe that all this suppose talent is of significant quality before they do a damn thing. With the Jays were talking about a team that has blown how many saves? Has 2 proven Pitchers that's it rather starting or in the pen. The bats are looking impressive but still way too early to believe the hype... remember Phelps, Hinskie etc.? Drabek and Snider were the organizations top prospects to start the year seems to me the star has fallen on them because of struggles and now we're believing in the others as guaranties and are starting to turn a cold shoulder on these 2. Doesn't seem to be that much a better situation to the Leafs now does it?
Nobody is giving up on them

They are still these organizations top prospects. Nobody is saying Snider is a failure, the coaching staff is getting blamed more for his development than himself.

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08-19-2011, 08:32 PM
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Interesting observation, the only thing I disagreed with was when he said the Jays are further along. I think the leafs have a better chance of making the playoffs this year than the Jays do for this year and the next.

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08-19-2011, 08:38 PM
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Not everyone in the Jays thread likes the Leafs. The Leafs are basically a Toronto/Ontario thing while the Jays are Canada's team and their fans are pretty evenly spread out across the country.
I don't think I can even comment on this, but I'll try...

You think the top team in the NHL in terms of fan attention and fan revenue has a fanbase primarily localized to one place?

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08-19-2011, 08:38 PM
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What good prospects has Burke traded?
He indirectly traded Seguin.

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08-19-2011, 08:41 PM
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Nobody is giving up on them

They are still these organizations top prospects. Nobody is saying Snider is a failure, the coaching staff is getting blamed more for his development than himself.
and on top of that with Thames, Marisnick and Gose either major league ready or getting close, it is yet another example of the prudent planning of AA to plan long term.

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08-19-2011, 08:41 PM
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They both are two totally different people, the comparison thus does not work. One GM is bigger than his team, the other is low-key. Imagine if someone said the Leafs are spying on other teams, can you imagine the press conference Burke would have?
Point is they are two totally different people with personalities and different ideas on building a contending team.


If you want to say they both are going with the youth movement, then you can also make the comparison to 10 other teams. In the article, he literally compares the moves of both GM's in a similar fashion. It does not work, not to mention they are totally different sports.

Even with that said, it's nice to see a change in the Toronto media these days with an attempt at being insightful.
The bolded is mostly their personalities, which there obviously is a difference but you don't see a similarity in both GM's ability to take on players with issues on previous teams? Thats where I found the comparison convincing. Look at Rasmus and Esco, AA took a chance on both with their previous issues and the same could be said of Burke with Phanuef and Kessel. I realize that the comparison is thin but there is still an argument that can be made.

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08-19-2011, 08:42 PM
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Interesting observation, the only thing I disagreed with was when he said the Jays are further along. I think the leafs have a better chance of making the playoffs this year than the Jays do for this year and the next.
Well that's because more teams make the playoffs in Hockey, so its easier too.

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08-19-2011, 08:42 PM
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and on top of that with Thames, Marisnick and Gose either major league ready or getting close, it is yet another example of the prudent planning of AA to plan long term.
It just seems so hard to comprehend that you can be deep at multiple positions.

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08-19-2011, 08:45 PM
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He indirectly traded Seguin.
He didn't indirectly trade anyone. He traded the pick, Boston then picked Seguin.

Okay think of it this way:

In the 2003 draft, Oilers traded their 17th pick...turns out to be Zach Parise and they got some defenseman that doesn't even play anymore when they went on the clock @ #22.

They traded the pick. Not Zach Parise. Same ways, Burke trades the picks not Seguin, Knight, Hamilton.

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08-19-2011, 08:45 PM
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Not everyone in the Jays thread likes the Leafs. The Leafs are basically a Toronto/Ontario thing while the Jays are Canada's team and their fans are pretty evenly spread out across the country.
For one, Leafs aren't just Toronto/Ontario, they are spread out as much as the Jays are across Canada. Secondly, I realize that there are not all Leaf fans in the Jays thread and I love that the Jays have a following all across Canada but when this is initially the LEAF section, the Leaf bashing should not be present. If you want to bash the Leafs, go take it to the main board, there is plenty to go around.

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