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Cox: Burke, Anthopoulos share a vision

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Old
08-19-2011, 07:48 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Kamal007 View Post
The bolded is mostly their personalities, which their obviously is a difference but you don't see a similarity in both GM's ability to take on players with issues on previous teams? Thats where I found the comparison convincing. Look at Rasmus and Esco, AA took a chance on both with their previous issues and the same could be said of Burke with Phanuef and Kessel. I realize that the comparison is thin but there is still an argument that can be made.
An argument can be made, but the comparison is very thin especially when you factor in the cost.

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08-19-2011, 07:49 PM
  #102
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Heh I did not realize the kind of solidarity we have in Jay's land for our guy AA. Very reassuring

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08-19-2011, 07:49 PM
  #103
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He didn't indirectly trade anyone. He traded the pick, Boston then picked Seguin.

Okay think of it this way:

In the 2003 draft, Oilers traded their 17th pick...turns out to be Zach Parise and they got some defenseman that doesn't even play anymore when they went on the clock @ #22.

They traded the pick. Not Zach Parise. Same ways, Burke trades the picks not Seguin, Knight, Hamilton.
You can argue semantics, but it's still a bad deal for the leafs that is potentially franchise-altering.

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08-19-2011, 07:53 PM
  #104
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I guess that's a telling sign in itself.

With Burke you have 2 staunch camps who either love him or hate him. Anthopolous seem's to be universally loved. (Minus your oddball here and there)

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08-19-2011, 08:03 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by dimi78 View Post
It is just your opinion because you hold the Leafs at a different standard to the Jays. Wilson hasn't been fired because of the growth and development of the young players Schenn, Grabovski, Kulemin etc.. make no mistake while so many fall victim into thinking Burke is all about the quick fix the plan isn't any different to the Jays and that's to put together a good young team together and have them grow into a contender. Wilson has a track record in turning teams around when they're in transition and successfully developed young teams into contenders problem is Leaf Nation and there instant gratification not willing to see things through and Wilson has been unfairly ripped IMO.
How can you say that? But yes, I did say it was my opinion.

Maybe he did help them with the development but there are other coaches too that probably work more one on one with the players but who knows.

The way I see it, PP, PK and defense have been absolutely horrendous under Wilson despite the overhauled roster and that was one the main reasons they hired him, to improve all that.

We've seen the Leafs stumble often early in the game. Maybe it's on the players...? Or maybe Wilson doesn't get them prepared.

We can agree to disagree though.

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The Kessel trade isn't bad because Kessel as we speak is the best player from the trade who was 22 years old at the time of the trade. 5 years from now maybe that will change and I stress maybe because people put the cart a head of the horse when it comes to prospects rather baseball or hockey as guaranties to be players of significance.
I consider it pretty bad but I don't think it's a trade that will cripple our franchise for years to come.

It's just, Leafs ended up giving a lot of talent (Seguin, Hamilton, Knight) for a young 30 goal scorer with potential. Seguin has franchise level potential... will he reach it? Who knows but 2nd overall picks over the recent years have been pretty good. The Leafs also did not make the playoffs and finished bottom 10 in both of those years.

If Leafs had those 3 players, do you really see Burke trading them for Kessel? I can't.

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This is why the popular belief that the Jays and AA are doing a better job when they've backed it up with little substance as a team other than hype, it's all one big hype machine with prospects when it comes to the Jays and I've learned a long time ago to don't believe the hype as a guaranty. Let it be what it becomes, not saying to not be excited get excited all we want but lets not believe that all this suppose talent is of significant quality before they do a damn thing. With the Jays were talking about a team that has blown how many saves? Has 2 proven Pitchers that's it rather starting or in the pen. The bats are looking impressive but still way too early to believe the hype... remember Phelps, Hinskie etc.? Drabek and Snider were the organizations top prospects to start the year seems to me the star has fallen on them because of struggles and now we're believing in the others as guaranties and are starting to turn a cold shoulder on these 2. Doesn't seem to be that much a better situation to the Leafs now does it?
Jays are re-building and really, finding a closer isn't a big deal or really re-building the pen. It's the last thing to fix and it usually comes together since relievers are so volatile. Look at the core Jays have now. Best player in the game, Jose Bautista, a top shortstop, potentially a superstar CF who had a .859 OPS last year. Without even looking, I bet that was top 3 OPS in CF. They have a potential superstar in Lawrie.

Drabek and Snider are having bad years but they still have tons of potential and in baseball, a lot of players don't immediately have success and often experiences sent up and down in baseball. In hockey, if a guy doesn't show how good he is when he comes up, time runs out faster for him. Baseball is totally weird when it comes to prospects progress or even players.

But Jays farm system is so great that it likely wouldn't even matter if they completely bust because they have tons of great talent coming up.

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Anyway you want to put it the Jays and Leafs are sitting at the same spot in there development as a team of there perspective sport so why is it believed that AA has done a better Job? Could it be true that the Leafs as an organization under Burke is being unappreciated especially the turn over Burke has done with this team from prospects in JR hockey all the way to the NHL itself where we're constantly living with the view that the grass is greener on the other side when it comes to the Leafs?
I follow both of the teams very closely and leafs are my favourite but Jays are ahead without a doubt and could really be in a pennant race if not for this division.

I say this because Jays already an above .500 roster with great talent coming up and still players on the roster who have barely scratched their potential. Even if they don't reach their full potential, they can still be great players. Having the best player in the game certainly doesn't hurt or having a great pitcher in Romero establishing himself as one of the top pitchers in the game.

Leafs have good talented roster and good talent coming up but they seem to lack high ceiling or guys with great potential IMO. Kessel can be great, so can Dion, maybe Schenn can develop into an elite shutdown defensemen but after that?

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I think so, I guess we'll have to wait and see who's plan translate into contender status ironically it's both the same plan.
Fair enough.

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AA just wasted a 1st round pick on a player that wasn't going to sign, the player himself set letters out to all teams that he wasn't going to sign yet AA still used the pick on him. If Burke did something like that with the Leafs there would be a witch hunt so why the double standard?
lol Jays get a 22nd overall pick next year draft. If they don't sign that then they lose that pick.

Funny thing is, even without signing him, Jays still had a arguably top 5 draft and were top 10 in spending.

I don't get what you mean with the second point. I mean every team signs their 1st rounder.

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08-19-2011, 08:19 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by VanJaysFan View Post
I'd rather voice my opinions (even if they include hating the Leafs) in the Jays thread than on the main boards. Just a preference I guess.

The Jays thread has NOTHING to do with the Toronto Maple Leafs, they aren't immune from criticism more than any other hockey team.
At first you say that you would voice your opinions of hating the Leafs in the Jays thread, then proceed to say that the Jays thread has nothing to do with the Leafs? Which is it?

They aren't immune to criticism, criticize all you like but doing it in a thread that you said yourself has nothing to do with the Leafs should not occur. Especially on the Leaf board.

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08-19-2011, 08:55 PM
  #107
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Cox's comparison was pretty dumb, but that Drunk Jays Fans rant had me in tears.

So much anger and rage, it almost borders on sports nerd rage. Jesus.

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08-19-2011, 10:06 PM
  #108
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personally I dont see the comparison at all and I'm not saying one is better then the other. has Burke built the team through youth? sure but Burke has being adding high priced UFA's pretty much every summer or trading youth for NHL now talent. only once the team has failed in the first half of the season does burk shift his gears to acquiring prospects/picks, whereas AA has pretty much made only like 1-2 UFA signings that I can think off, and I dont mean bench players cuz thats like adding 4th liners but real starting players, and has been trading roster players for prospects all year round. he even traded one of our best pitchers last year in Marcum for a top prospect this would be like Burke trading Grabo for a player like Ryan Johansen(Theoritical name) tomorrow, but that would never happen with the way Burke has been managing. so yea while they both have seemed to build with youth imo Burkes youth has come because his teams have failed, AA has been going youth all year round, theres no comparison imo.

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08-19-2011, 10:06 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Espher View Post
Cox's comparison was pretty dumb, but that Drunk Jays Fans rant had me in tears.

So much anger and rage, it almost borders on sports nerd rage. Jesus.
That was hilarious to read. Especially the end.

"They are poised to be very good for a long time-- perhaps even good enough to make real playoff runs, despite being one of the three most naturally disadvantaged teams in all of North American pro sports (the other two, of course, being their fellow AL East dwellers the Rays and Orioles)."

He's basically saying the Leafs suck and that the Jays are disadvantaged teams in ALL of North American pro sports because the Yankees and the Red Sox are much better than them.

We play in a division that has took the last THREE Vezina's belonging to Tim Thomas and our killer Ryan Miller and another damn good goalie in Carey Price, maybe we should be ranting about the disadvantage we have on Drunk Leafs fan haha.

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08-19-2011, 10:11 PM
  #110
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the jays are "competitive"? since when? They've got the same type of record this season that they always have.

Let's ease up on the "genius" and ">Burke" stuff until that changes. it's pretty much a waste of time to compare guys across sports and different economic systems. Hell, it's even different markets even though it's the same city.

And as someone already mentioned, that wasn't even cox's point anyway.

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08-19-2011, 10:18 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Espher View Post
Cox's comparison was pretty dumb, but that Drunk Jays Fans rant had me in tears.

So much anger and rage, it almost borders on sports nerd rage. Jesus.
drunksjaysfans.com blog is always like that.

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08-19-2011, 10:25 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
the jays are "competitive"? since when? They've got the same type of record this season that they always have.

Let's ease up on the "genius" and ">Burke" stuff until that changes. it's pretty much a waste of time to compare guys across sports and different economic systems. Hell, it's even different markets even though it's the same city.

And as someone already mentioned, that wasn't even cox's point anyway.
You are correct, I have no idea how this morphed into who is doing a better job AA or BB as that was not Cox's point !

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08-19-2011, 10:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
personally I dont see the comparison at all and I'm not saying one is better then the other. has Burke built the team through youth? sure but Burke has being adding high priced UFA's pretty much every summer or trading youth for NHL now talent. only once the team has failed in the first half of the season does burk shift his gears to acquiring prospects/picks, whereas AA has pretty much made only like 1-2 UFA signings that I can think off, and I dont mean bench players cuz thats like adding 4th liners but real starting players, and has been trading roster players for prospects all year round. he even traded one of our best pitchers last year in Marcum for a top prospect this would be like Burke trading Grabo for a player like Ryan Johansen(Theoritical name) tomorrow, but that would never happen with the way Burke has been managing. so yea while they both have seemed to build with youth imo Burkes youth has come because his teams have failed, AA has been going youth all year round, theres no comparison imo.
You're confusing going with youth with blowing up the roster. AA was ordered by Jays management to blow up the roster when he came in; Burke didn't.

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08-19-2011, 10:55 PM
  #114
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I hate how so many people think that Burke considers himself bigger than the team.

I'd honestly like to get some proof, because the way I see it, Burke does nothing but protect his players. I've never seen Burke come out and say 'I got something to say, listen to me'... he just has a strong stance on a variety of topics. As a fan, I appreciate that opposed to the JFJ era where everything was so muddled.

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08-19-2011, 11:11 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by VanJaysFan View Post
You can't possibly be serious.

It wasn't even two months ago we were witness to this....



How in any way is this 'putting the team first'? Enjoy Connolly.
The question wasn't about putting the 'team first', it was about putting 'himself before the team'...

I'd hardly call going to Afghanistan on July 1 a 'putting himself before the team' incident.

You people disgust me.

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08-19-2011, 11:19 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by VanJaysFan View Post
You can't possibly be serious.

It wasn't even two months ago we were witness to this....

[img]

How in any way is this 'putting the team first'? Enjoy Connolly.
That's enough. Despite your opinion to the contrary, this is the Leaf board here for the enjoyment of Leaf fans and it is not for other teams fans to take digs at the Leafs. Period.

And that does include the Jays thread, maybe I need to wander in there some more. It's a thread on the Leaf board subject to the same rules as any other thread. HFBoards has a baseball section if that's unacceptable for your Jays discussion needs.

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08-19-2011, 11:21 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by VanJaysFan View Post
You asked for proof. I provided. You could argue 'putting the troops before the team' is just as bad as putting 'Burke before the team' but we can split hairs all night if you'd like.

Yes it's noble to go to Afghanistan to support the troops, I'll give you that, but the conflict has been going on TEN YEARS and you pick arguably the most important single day of your career with the Leafs to go grandstand in the desert?

If you're gonna be a pro you have to act like it.
It really would not have made a difference if he stayed here or not. He has a blackberry that reaches Dave Nonis, Cliff Fletcher, Claude Loiselle, Rick Dudley and/or Dave Poulin... All of those guys are just as qualified as Burke to make moves, some would even argue that Nonis is of equal power to Burke.

And not a pro? It's not like he was out clubbing the night before and slept in on July 1. Come on man, look at things objectively.

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08-19-2011, 11:24 PM
  #118
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Wow... didn't even realize he wasn't a Leafs fan

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08-19-2011, 11:35 PM
  #119
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You can say whatever you want about it, but it's still putting himself before the team. The cap "circumvention" contracts are another example, the disputed battles with other GM's, tampering charges, announcements -- "we'll be active July 1st", his known stances on several issues around the league. All of these are examples of where this should not be public over the team. Anyway, it's so far off the topic of this thread, agree to disagree.

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08-20-2011, 01:23 AM
  #120
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whatever the case is, we will see who reaches the championship before, certainly AA has great high potential pick and actually tanked persay and filled his pool that way, burke on the other hard fought with the system and still built our team with respectable prospect pool from a crap situation.

Not to mention AA also had enough pieces to play around with and inherited a lot more than what burke got. Personally this conversation has become moot, i was annoyed at first at Burke talk but seriously. The scenarios aren't close, just take cox's crap and agree that he just sees both teams have been horrible in the past few years and now both are going for the youth movement for the championship.

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08-20-2011, 01:25 AM
  #121
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anthopolous has done absolute wonders for the jays. and if the bullpen held up half of those blown saves, we would be in the playoff hunt.i STILL can't grasp the fact he got one of the best young centerfielders in the game in rasmus for basically frasor. i love it. a genius!

burke has also done a fairly good job. we have one of youngest teams in the league. and this year, we could see playoff hockey. he just needs to grow a backbone and fire wilson. we cannot afford going on another 8 game skid before he realizes a change is needed. we have new assistant coaches as well, so that should help our penalty killing(hopefully).

i give the edge to anthopolous. it is a lot harder to make the playoffs in baseball, ESPECIALLY in the AL east! let's not forget about the rays. i believe they had the most first round picks in this year's draft, and they are retooling for next year as well. so it could be a 4-team race for the division title/playoffs next year.

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08-20-2011, 01:27 AM
  #122
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anthopolous has done absolute wonders for the jays. and if the bullpen held up half of those blown saves, we would be in the playoff hunt.i STILL can't grasp the fact he got one of the best young centerfielders in the game in rasmus for basically frasor. i love it. a genius!

burke has also done a fairly good job. we have one of youngest teams in the league. and this year, we could see playoff hockey. he just needs to grow a backbone and fire wilson. we cannot afford going on another 8 game skid before he realizes a change is needed. we have new assistant coaches as well, so that should help our penalty killing(hopefully).

i give the edge to anthopolous. it is a lot harder to make the playoffs in baseball, ESPECIALLY in the AL east! let's not forget about the rays. i believe they had the most first round picks in this year's draft, and they are retooling for next year as well. so it could be a 4-team race for the division title/playoffs next year.
i give antho an edge too but we have the stanley cup champ in our division lol

price, miller, thomas and then us lol in our young goalie reimer. this entire division is basically based on that. goalies...it's not easy as well here, although I think the habs will fall off soon.

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08-20-2011, 01:29 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
i give antho an edge too but we have the stanley cup champ in our division lol

price, miller, thomas and then us lol in our young goalie reimer. this entire division is basically based on that. goalies...it's not easy as well here, although I think the habs will fall off soon.
Why will the habs fall off soon? You realize their best players are young right?

And they have some potentially very good guys who are quite young and possibly going to be making an impact soon.

So why are the going to fall off soon?

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08-20-2011, 01:50 AM
  #124
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Why will the habs fall off soon? You realize their best players are young right?

And they have some potentially very good guys who are quite young and possibly going to be making an impact soon.

So why are the going to fall off soon?
alright. Price and Subban, possibly Eller. Who is going to do their job aside from those three?

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08-20-2011, 02:49 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
i give antho an edge too but we have the stanley cup champ in our division lol

price, miller, thomas and then us lol in our young goalie reimer. this entire division is basically based on that. goalies...it's not easy as well here, although I think the habs will fall off soon.
it wasn't like this for nearly 2 decades like the jays though. the jays have had to put up with the yankees and red sox a hell of a lot longer than the leafs have had to put up with the three goaltenders.

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