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Could RJ be traded by years end?

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Old
08-23-2011, 06:59 AM
  #101
blahblah
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
I didnt say he should want less money for being captain material. There is one captain on Columbus, that argument is as bad as saying he could score 60 goals so should be paid as such. He is a clubhouse leader, captain material is ********.
Oh good lord. You take one comment about his leadership, blow it entirely out of portion, invent some major crap about "if it's a consideration" and then back away from it like it was never your position (how else do you factor in "his desire to stay here" if it isn't from a leadership position from a contract negotiation standpoint?). You list a player who RJ would get paid more than (not to mention you want to START at less) and get your panties in a bunch over 1 mill per year (a number that isn't even confirmed by the way). I even mentioned how they would probably look to structure it, so that you maybe cry less about RJ @ 35 (if the term is even that long). Not to mention you started to pave the way for the RJ is greedy crowd.

If you are going to overpay for someone on this roster, RJ is top on my list. After that moronic contract that Mason got, I don't want to hear Howson say one word about RJ and this negotiation.

Point is, the RJ side is going to have some momentum on his next contract, he's a leader in the locker room, he could very well be a captain on another team, and honestly I would rather have him @ 5 million than Nash @ 7.5. That he's that strong of a leader IS worth something on the bargaining table even if "I mostly look disinterested and sometimes play like it" Nash is the current captain.

Basically, I'm completely and totally done with you. If you want to put your foot down over some invented dollar amount on your perceived value, be my guest. It's just silly. I'm not even 50% sure RJ is going to be here after this year. I'm not even 50% sure Howson wants him here (even @ 3.75 again). I am sure that Arniel wants him here. I am 95% sure ownership wants him here.

Yes, let's jack around with this extension... Great message when you just threw that much money around with Carter and Wiz. We'll hook everyone up but you RJ! We want to low ball your dumb ass! Nice...

Pay the people that are part of the solution and that had to put up with your crappy roster in the past.

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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post
I was coming from a depth fantasy position in which we had three scoring lines, all of which need leadership and strength and would be the only justifiable reason to move RJ and possible negotiation positions.
I have no issues with three skilled lines. If that's the direction I am good with that. If it's a shut down role, I am less than thrilled. There are better/cheaper options. I think we are pretty much on the same page there.

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08-23-2011, 08:06 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Oh good lord. You take one comment about his leadership, blow it entirely out of portion, invent some major crap about "if it's a consideration" and then back away from it like it was never your position (how else do you factor in "his desire to stay here" if it isn't from a leadership position from a contract negotiation standpoint?). You list a player who RJ would get paid more than (not to mention you want to START at less) and get your panties in a bunch over 1 mill per year (a number that isn't even confirmed by the way). I even mentioned how they would probably look to structure it, so that you maybe cry less about RJ @ 35 (if the term is even that long). Not to mention you started to pave the way for the RJ is greedy crowd.

If you are going to overpay for someone on this roster, RJ is top on my list. After that moronic contract that Mason got, I don't want to hear Howson say one word about RJ and this negotiation.

Point is, the RJ side is going to have some momentum on his next contract, he's a leader in the locker room, he could very well be a captain on another team, and honestly I would rather have him @ 5 million than Nash @ 7.5. That he's that strong of a leader IS worth something on the bargaining table even if "I mostly look disinterested and sometimes play like it" Nash is the current captain.

Basically, I'm completely and totally done with you. If you want to put your foot down over some invented dollar amount on your perceived value, be my guest. It's just silly. I'm not even 50% sure RJ is going to be here after this year. I'm not even 50% sure Howson wants him here (even @ 3.75 again). I am sure that Arniel wants him here. I am 95% sure ownership wants him here.

Yes, let's jack around with this extension... Great message when you just threw that much money around with Carter and Wiz. We'll hook everyone up but you RJ! We want to low ball your dumb ass! Nice...

Pay the people that are part of the solution and that had to put up with your crappy roster in the past.
Actually, you took my entire comment out of proportion. Captain status usually warrants a much higher pay raise than just one of the team leaders. It doesnt lower the salary, ever.

Brooks Laich is one year younger and RJ Umberger isnt that much better. Sounds like a classic case of homerism. I could deal with a 4.5 extension, depending on years but the organization strength is obviously on forward, while defense is severely lacking. Much rather Juice's money go to an impact defenseman. 3 million wont do that.

Umberger at 5.5 over Nash at 7.8? He is not that strong a leader. You make it sound as if RJ has single handedly brought this team to the promised land. Rick Nash leadership skills have left a little to be desired fact of the matter is its his team, and he is growing into the role of leader. He was 26 last year, still a young guy that hasnt touched his prime. He is an elite player, Umberger is a very good 2nd line grinder with intangibles. They shouldnt be close to the same salary bracket.

I see what you are saying dont screw around with RJ, but the fact of the matter is there are too many high contracts on this team. Sure that is mostly Howson doing, going forward it shouldn't be about repeating the same mistakes.

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08-23-2011, 08:24 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Actually, you took my entire comment out of proportion. Captain status usually warrants a much higher pay raise than just one of the team leaders. It doesnt lower the salary, ever.
You made too much of a deal out of the comment. Only commenting on level of leadership. It will be a discussion piece and does increase RJ's value on the open market. His agents are going to discuss the open market, not what his role(s) are on the team. RJ probably won't be be heavily involved in these discussion, unless things go sour.

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Brooks Laich is one year younger and RJ Umberger isnt that much better. Sounds like a classic case of homerism. I could deal with a 4.5 extension, depending on years but the organization strength is obviously on forward, while defense is severely lacking. Much rather Juice's money go to an impact defenseman. 3 million wont do that.
Oh, you could "deal" with 4.5 but not 5? I still don't know where this 5.5 is coming from. Yes, we need help on the defensive end. Yes, there is enough money to pay RJ another 1.25 and for an impact defenseman.

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Umberger at 5.5 over Nash at 7.8? He is not that strong a leader. You make it sound as if RJ has single handedly brought this team to the promised land. Rick Nash leadership skills have left a little to be desired fact of the matter is its his team, and he is growing into the role of leader. He was 26 last year, still a young guy that hasnt touched his prime. He is an elite player, Umberger is a very good 2nd line grinder with intangibles. They shouldnt be close to the same salary bracket.
I didn't make it sound like anything, other than I think RJ is a better leader - which I think he is. (btw I said RJ @ 5). I said which player I would rather have @ what salary. The rest is your invention. I said RJ would get more than Laich. On the open market he, most certainly, would.

Nash better increase is production, because 7.8 for 33 or so goals isn't going to cut it. We are paying him for 43+ goals.

Quote:
I see what you are saying dont screw around with RJ, but the fact of the matter is there are too many high contracts on this team. Sure that is mostly Howson doing, going forward it shouldn't be about repeating the same mistakes.
Yeah, a modest pay raise with the recent cap increase is going to break the team... I said pay him what he's worth. The market has already indicated he's worth, at least, 4.5.

How many is too many? We'll have 4 if RJ gets one. And it would probably be less than Wiz. At the roster stands, is RJ worth the 4th largest contract on the team? Yep.


Last edited by blahblah: 08-23-2011 at 08:30 AM.
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08-23-2011, 08:26 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
...honestly I would rather have him @ 5 million than Nash @ 7.5. That he's that strong of a leader IS worth something on the bargaining table even if "I mostly look disinterested and sometimes play like it" Nash is the current captain.
I like RJ and hope he finishes his career in Columbus, but the only thing in the above statement with which I agree is that leadership has monetary value. How much value is in question, and I don't think it is more important than talent and performance. You appear to place a much higher value on it than I.

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08-23-2011, 08:38 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
I like RJ and hope he finishes his career in Columbus, but the only thing in the above statement with which I agree is that leadership has monetary value. How much value is in question, and I don't think it is more important than talent and performance. You appear to place a much higher value on it than I.
Your impression that the reason I would rather have RJ than Nash at the current salary is all leadership related is not accurate. It just happens that it was mixed into the leadership discussion (we didn't get into a detailed comparison). I am only de-emphasizing some of Nash's characteristics, but it's far more than simply leadership driving that comment. However, yes, Nash would get that money, probably a bit more, on the open market.

I could list the half dozen issues that I have with Nash, but you've heard them all before. That didn't change last year. Those issues don't exist with RJ. I have very few complaints with RJ's overall game. Those that exist are related to ceiling.

If you are asking which players I would rather go to "war" with. RJ would come up before Nash. If you asking which player has more skill and upside, Nash of course. RJ is that guy I would count on to score that big goal in the playoffs. Nash can do it, but he has to improve his consistency, determination, and overall effort.


Last edited by blahblah: 08-23-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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08-23-2011, 08:49 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Your impression that the reason I would rather have RJ than Nash at the current salary is all leadership related is not accurate. It just happens that it was mixed into the leadership discussion (we didn't get into a detailed comparison). I am only de-emphasizing some of Nash's characteristics, but it's far more than simply leadership driving that comment. However, yes, Nash would get that money, probably a bit more, on the open market.

I could list the half dozen issues that I have with Nash, but you've heard them all before. That didn't change last year. Those issues don't exist with RJ. I have very few complaints with RJ's overall game. Those that exist are related to ceiling.

If you are asking which players I would rather go to "war" with. RJ would come up before Nash. If you asking which player has more skill and upside, Nash of course. RJ is that guy I would count on to score that big goal in the playoffs. Nash can do it, but he has to improve his consistency, determination, and overall effort.
O.K.

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08-23-2011, 09:07 AM
  #107
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Interesting discussion..

I look at the disparity in salary between RJ & Ryan Keslar. When they were at Ohio State loved them both but always thought RJ had more NHL potential. Now Keslar a center, has a cap hit of $5MM and scores 20 points more a season. Based on this I would say the range for RJ's contract is 3.5MM to 4MM for 3 to 4 years.

No question that I keep the guy though, he is a heart & soul player.

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08-23-2011, 09:51 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
I look at the disparity in salary between RJ & Ryan Keslar. When they were at Ohio State loved them both but always thought RJ had more NHL potential. Now Keslar a center, has a cap hit of $5MM and scores 20 points more a season. Based on this I would say the range for RJ's contract is 3.5MM to 4MM for 3 to 4 years.

No question that I keep the guy though, he is a heart & soul player.
He signed that contract after a one year spike, otherwise his numbers weren't special (goal numbers were the same or worse). That's proven to be a good move, but I wouldn't parade that out there as justification to the drop you are suggesting.

What's kind of amusing is that even with that bump, RJ's and Kesler's totals are almost identical over their careers. Last year's totals for Kesler where almost complete driven, over RJ, by PP production. Their 5 on 5 production was almost identical.

If Kesler had produced two 70+ point seasons before that contract, minus a home town discount, would have seen that salary in the 6 range. Produce 40+ goals a couple of years straight and he would be closer to 7 if not more.

It will be fascinating to see if Kesler can put up 35+ goals again.

We just pulled the Kesler, to an extent, with Wiz. Let's see if it pays off for us like it did for Van.

Thanks for bringing up a good basis for the discussion.

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08-23-2011, 11:32 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by BluejacketNut View Post
I agree with HP, the Jackets are a better team with RJ forced to the 3rd line. He's an average 2nd liner, and a excellent 3rd liner. Can he play 2nd line duty, sure, but i'd rather have someone with more skill (Prospal or Juice once he becomes healthy) playing on the 2nd line
"Better team with him on the third line"? That's because we'd have to have massive amounts of depth to make that worthwhile. Massive amounts of depth that, I hasten to add, no team in the National Hockey League has had since the days of the Original Six.

"His skillset works best on the third line?" So does that of Rick Nash... on Team Canada. "Skillset" is a garbage excuse. Just because he can does not mean that is the best place for him; it just means he can keep playing after his production on the second line starts to fade with age. For similar reasons, we can probably expect Nash to retire at age 40 after a long stint on a checking line. Does that mean he should be on a checking line now? No, of course not, and to suggest similar for Umberger is equally insane.

There's no rational debate, and y'all are making fools of yourselves trying to perpetuate one. He is an NHL second liner now, he will continue to be an NHL second liner for the forseeable future, and any suggestion that he should be paid third line money because OMFG HE MIGHT GET OLD or so-and-so skillset or whatever excuse y'all want to try to come up with to blithely ignore cold hard facts is ludicrous.

Here, take a look at some poll results: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=971709 and http://hfboards.com/poll.php?do=show...s&pollid=59677
Note that the vast majority have him as first or second line material, and many of the folks putting him on the third line are doing so due to existing chemistry (Hartnell+Briere), LW depth (Kovalchuk+Parise), or other similar assets - and many of those are frequently unaware that he plays RW as well.

No. I've had it. No more of this madness. He Is A Second Line Winger, despite desperate attempts to cut him down because of his fanclub or because he's a Buckeye or whatever. Feel free to kvetch at folks who call him a regular first-liner, but there is no rational debate possible about his top-6 status. Any assertion otherwise is wrong - blatantly wrong, and borderline delusional - and I do not care what you try to come up with to claim otherwise.

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08-23-2011, 11:59 AM
  #110
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yell at people some more for having their opinions...it'll help...

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08-23-2011, 12:13 PM
  #111
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yell at people some more for having their opinions...it'll help...
The beatings will continue until moral improves....

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08-23-2011, 12:26 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
yell at people some more for having their opinions...it'll help...
I am of the opinion that Sidney Crosby would be best on the second line.


"It's just my opinion" is a cop-out used most frequently by people unwilling to accept reality in the face of a rebuke.

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08-23-2011, 12:46 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
The beatings will continue until moral improves....
yes sir, may i have another?

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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
I am of the opinion that Sidney Crosby would be best on the second line.


"It's just my opinion" is a cop-out used most frequently by people unwilling to accept reality in the face of a rebuke.
c'mon those are apples or oranges, you're just getting rediculous now...RJ is a grinder with some skill...is he more than servicable on the 2nd line, of course...but as said, do you want an average player on one line, or an over average player on the 3rd...its fine, you have your opinions, all I'm saying is stop flaming people and coming off condescending just because they have theirs...

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08-23-2011, 12:48 PM
  #114
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yell at people some more for having their opinions...it'll help...
Have you ever noticed some posters attack others' opinions frequently in hopes of raising the relative quality of their own?

For example, I typically come hear and read a bit, reply to a few threads, then disappear for a couple weeks, until I get the urge and the free time to check back in on CBJ fan talk. Everytime I come back, I check my last few posts to see what the responses were. There is this one guy, that is constantly nipping at my heels, criticizing my opinions, basically looking for an arugment.

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08-23-2011, 01:14 PM
  #115
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So how do you feel about RJ and if he could/should be traded by the end of the year Nordique? I think he could very well be. Although it should probably say season instead of year.

Glad you stopped by to complain....

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08-23-2011, 01:41 PM
  #116
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I should have looked a little deeper at stats

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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
He signed that contract after a one year spike, otherwise his numbers weren't special (goal numbers were the same or worse). That's proven to be a good move, but I wouldn't parade that out there as justification to the drop you are suggesting.

What's kind of amusing is that even with that bump, RJ's and Kesler's totals are almost identical over their careers. Last year's totals for Kesler where almost complete driven, over RJ, by PP production. Their 5 on 5 production was almost identical.

If Kesler had produced two 70+ point seasons before that contract, minus a home town discount, would have seen that salary in the 6 range.
I was thinking that he had already had back to back 70+ pt seasons, but his original term was $30MM over 6yrs - your point is a good one, play RJ with Sedin & Burrows and you would probably get similar results.

Keslar is considered elite.. wonder how he would do on the 3rd line? Feeding Mayray.

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08-23-2011, 01:41 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
RJ is a grinder with some skill
"A grinder with some skill" generally designates a player in the 30-40 point range, not a guy who consistently gets 50-55 points and higher.

By similar logic, Rick Nash could arguably also be classified as "a grinder with some skill". Should he also be on the third line?

No, I'm sorry. This is ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
...is he more than servicable on the 2nd line, of course
And Alex Ovechkin, despite his lack of defensive ability, is similarly more than serviceable on the first line.

Do you guys even realize what you're saying?

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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
...but as said, do you want an average player on one line, or an over average player on the 3rd
Most second-liners in the NHL score somewhere between 45-50 points, with a few quality guys who go above that level and get as high as 60 or more.

Here are some examples of second-liners (and a few others) in the NHL who had healthy seasons last year:
Saku Koivu, #2C: 45 points.
Patrice Bergeron, current #2C: 57 points.
Brad Marchand, Michael Ryder, and Rich Peverley, Cup-winning #2Ws: 41 points.
Ville Leino, #2W: 53 points.
Rene Bourque, #2W: 50 points.
Jussi Jokinen, #2W: 52 points.
David Jones, borderline #2W when healthy: 45 points.
Todd Bertuzzi, #2W: 45 points.
Johan Franzen, #1W: 55 points.
Dan Cleary, #2W on the first line: 46 points.
Kris Versteeg, #2-3W: 46 points.
Dustin Penner, poor #2W: 45 points.
Justin Williams, #1-2W when healthy: 57 points.
Devin Setoguchi, #"2"W: 41 points.
Eric Cole, #2W: 52 points.
Brian Gionta, possibly declining #2W: 46 points.
Patric Hornqvist, #2W: 48 points.
Michael Grabner, breakout ROTY nominee and #2W: 52 points.
Blake Comeau, #2W: 46 points.
Ryan Callahan and Marian Gaborik, future and current #1Ws: 48 points. (Both in 60 games, tho.)
Brandon Dubinsky, #2W playing on the first line: 54 points.
Jakub Voracek, #2W with #1W upside: 46 points.
Scott Hartnell, #2W: 49 points.
James van Riemsdyk, #2W expected to become a #1W next year: 40 points.
Radim Vrbata, #2W: 48 points.
James Neal, #2W and possible #1W fill-in in the future: 45 points.
Ryane Clowe, #2W because he plays behind Marleau: 62 points.
TJ Oshie, #2W: 34 points in 49 games (about 56-57 points if he played all 82)
Teddy Purcell, #2W: 51 points.
Nikolai Kulemin, breakout #2W: 57 points.
Mason Raymond, #2W: 39 points (in 70 games)
Mike Knuble, character #2W: 40 points.

RJ Umberger, #"3"W: 57 points.

That's about 35 wingers, and includes a few acknowledged #1s. Three of them (Bergeron and Williams, both with known injury problems, and Kulemin, who has never had anything close to that point total before) had the same amount of points, two more (Callahan and Gaborik) were on pace to exceed him but weren't the iron men Umberger has been for three years running, and only one (Ryane Clowe) actually exceeded his performance.

Goodness, that sure makes it look like RJ's in the upper tier of second-line players, and might be able to fill-in on the first line. Much like I've been saying. HOW ABOUT THAT.

Most of the rest that I omitted are below 40 points, by the way. Exceptions are 20-21 year olds on the rise like Jordan Eberle and Tyler Ennis (I included some 22-year-olds above, like Jake and JVR), a #1W or two that plays on the second line due to depth (Marion Hossa), and Zach Parise (lost last year to injury and is otherwise a #1W.

If you need me to go through literally every single winger in the NHL before the madness can end, I can do that. It'd take a while, but if it would finally shut you people up and STOP THE MADNESS, I'll do it.)


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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
...its fine, you have your opinions, all I'm saying is stop flaming people and coming off condescending just because they have theirs...
I am of the opinion that ice cream will destroy the universe.

Is this sensible? No. And yet I'm not going to hijack otherwise rational debates with this. "RJ Umberger is a third-liner", however, does, and I WILL NOT HAVE IT.

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08-23-2011, 01:42 PM
  #118
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yes sir, may i have another?



c'mon those are apples or oranges, you're just getting rediculous now...RJ is a grinder with some skill...is he more than servicable on the 2nd line, of course...but as said, do you want an average player on one line, or an over average player on the 3rd...its fine, you have your opinions, all I'm saying is stop flaming people and coming off condescending just because they have theirs...
Condescending, holier-than-thou, I'm-right-you're-wrong-YOU-HERETICS-KNOW-NOTHING is what Viqsi does best, hon'.

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08-23-2011, 01:48 PM
  #119
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nvm...done with this...some people won't stop

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08-23-2011, 01:49 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Happy Pony View Post
Condescending, holier-than-thou, I'm-right-you're-wrong-YOU-HERETICS-KNOW-NOTHING is what Viqsi does best, hon'.
It's only because you people keep deserving it.

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08-23-2011, 02:25 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
"Better team with him on the third line"? That's because we'd have to have massive amounts of depth to make that worthwhile. Massive amounts of depth that, I hasten to add, no team in the National Hockey League has had since the days of the Original Six.

"His skillset works best on the third line?" So does that of Rick Nash... on Team Canada. "Skillset" is a garbage excuse. Just because he can does not mean that is the best place for him; it just means he can keep playing after his production on the second line starts to fade with age. For similar reasons, we can probably expect Nash to retire at age 40 after a long stint on a checking line. Does that mean he should be on a checking line now? No, of course not, and to suggest similar for Umberger is equally insane.

There's no rational debate, and y'all are making fools of yourselves trying to perpetuate one. He is an NHL second liner now, he will continue to be an NHL second liner for the forseeable future, and any suggestion that he should be paid third line money because OMFG HE MIGHT GET OLD or so-and-so skillset or whatever excuse y'all want to try to come up with to blithely ignore cold hard facts is ludicrous.

Here, take a look at some poll results: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=971709 and http://hfboards.com/poll.php?do=show...s&pollid=59677
Note that the vast majority have him as first or second line material, and many of the folks putting him on the third line are doing so due to existing chemistry (Hartnell+Briere), LW depth (Kovalchuk+Parise), or other similar assets - and many of those are frequently unaware that he plays RW as well.

No. I've had it. No more of this madness. He Is A Second Line Winger, despite desperate attempts to cut him down because of his fanclub or because he's a Buckeye or whatever. Feel free to kvetch at folks who call him a regular first-liner, but there is no rational debate possible about his top-6 status. Any assertion otherwise is wrong - blatantly wrong, and borderline delusional - and I do not care what you try to come up with to claim otherwise.
Congrats on winning the title of Queen Hyperbole

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08-23-2011, 02:34 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
I was thinking that he had already had back to back 70+ pt seasons, but his original term was $30MM over 6yrs - your point is a good one, play RJ with Sedin & Burrows and you would probably get similar results.

Keslar is considered elite.. wonder how he would do on the 3rd line? Feeding Mayray.
I'm not sure what would have happened if you put RJ with that group, but there is a reasonable chance his production increases. I don't think RJ would ever reach 41 goals, but I think he could peak in the low 30's with the right environment. RJ is certainly cable of putting up 60+ points.

Good discussion, thanks.

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Old
08-23-2011, 02:37 PM
  #123
Fro
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I'm not sure what would have happened if you put RJ with that group, but there is a reasonable chance his production increases. I don't think RJ would ever reach 41 goals, but I think he could peak in the low 30's with the right environment. RJ is certainly cable of putting up 60+ points.

Good discussion, thanks.
i would think he'd be up for a selke in that type of environment just like kesler...

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08-23-2011, 02:39 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
i would think he'd be up for a selke in that type of environment just like kesler...
Very possible Fro.

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Old
08-23-2011, 02:40 PM
  #125
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IMO Umby will be traded if he requests this trade.

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