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Old
08-20-2011, 01:58 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
Biron is also not a butterfly goaltender. Part of a dying breed in that regard.
Very true.

I wouldn't say stand ups are dying out, just merging with butterflys to make hybrids. Brodeur was pretty much a stand up, but has transitioned into more of a hybrid.

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08-20-2011, 01:58 PM
  #102
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We have an ignore thread option for all users. Try it instead of spamming threads you don't like with complaints about the thread, which actually exacerbate your own issue with the thread's presence at the top of the boards in the first place.

Think, people. Think.

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08-20-2011, 02:00 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by EddardStark View Post
....
Stepan is good, but he's not out of this world good, nor does his great year in any way, shape or form hint that. As for MDZ, you want to rid him after one bad year.

The Devils would be utter idiots to accept that deal for the best defenseman they've had since the two Scotties.
Bold not true, have to give to get, fits profile of your need.
Underline: this is true ONLY if Larsson plays up to fullest potential, which we have no idea may or may not be the case. It is likely he will play well, at some point very well, but how well is only cause of speculation.

Stepan first year gives ROUGH idea of how good he'll be.
We have less idea with Del Zotto, who was brought back to learn higher level of D Torts demands. He can't turn it on and off, but it seems clear he does have skills for contributing to offense if turned loose.

We have only WILD GUESS as to Larsson.
So the point is, does LL want to gamble on somewhat known commodities who would clearly help day 1 at camp? Or does he hope, like you say, for the best player they've had in ages.

Have to give to get and it works both ways.

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08-20-2011, 02:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
Back on the Parise topic just wanted to give my two cents about the whole contract situation.

I do think there are some organizational issues right now that may of held up a long term deal.

There's no question in my mind that Parise was looking for a Erhoff type deal with tons of lock out protection money in the 1st two seasons.

Our owner is currently in the process of buying out his partner completely.

Vanderbeek wants 100% ownership and may sell off parts to investors afterwards.. that remains to be seen.

Vanderbeek also has a ridiculous amount of money. A very good partnership with Prudential and a very good TV deal with MSG.

Money won't be a issue going forward but I do think it had something to do with it right now until things are settled.

Now about if Zach wishes to stay or not. My gut says yes.. Zach's said he wants to stay.. and has gone above and beyond the normal responses of just " yes i want to be here "

He has a unique opportunity to usher in a new chapter of Devils hockey as the captain for the foreseeable future if he so chooses.

If in the end he doesn't want to stay ? Then fine I don't want anyone putting on that sweater who isn't all in.

The Devils are a team in transition and I think are showing other teams how to re-tool and still stay fairly competitive.
So, I was right about the transition?

I guess I think too much like a Devils fan. I hope I'm not turning into one. Not that there's something wrong with all of you guys.

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08-20-2011, 02:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by HagelinForPresident View Post
No they aren't, they've made the playoffs 12 of the last 13 years (you have him on ignore so you don't get it)
LOL. Very true...

I do like the way Lou "rebuilds" it happened from 97-2000 and capped off with a cup

He'll never gut the team but he'll slowly remove pieces no longer in the teams long term plans I.E White.

Parise, Kovy, Josefson, Tedenby, Larsson etc etc will become the face of the Devils.

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08-20-2011, 02:03 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Stepan Guy View Post
So, I was right about the transition?

I guess I think too much like a Devils fan. I hope I'm not turning into one. Not that there's something wrong with all of you guys.
Your completely right and any sane Devils fan would agree with you.

Lot of youth coming in and a lot of names everyone here knows are slowly going by the way side making room for a lot of Devils youth.

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08-20-2011, 02:04 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I can take a joke as well as the next guy; handclap:
at the same time: "Lucy, you just so ridiculous!"
That's the spirit

I love to tease everybody, sorry if I came across as an arrogant d!ck. We are Ranger brethren and thats what really counts.

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08-20-2011, 02:05 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
Your completely right and any sane Devils fan would agree with you.

Lot of youth coming in and a lot of names everyone here knows are slowly going by the way side making room for a lot of Devils youth.
I'm truthfully more afraid of the new Devils team that's in development more than I was of the old team with Elias and Langenbrunner. It's developing a new identity and with a good coach at the helm, the team can be very dangerous.

As a long time Ranger fan I'll always root against the Devils, but I'll always have a reason to hate them.

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08-20-2011, 02:07 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Stepan Guy View Post
I'm truthfully more afraid of the new Devils team that's in development more than I was of the old team with Elias and Langenbrunner. It's developing a new identity and with a good coach at the helm, the team can be very dangerous.

As a long time Ranger fan I'll always root against the Devils, but I'll always have a reason to hate them.
Oh I'm completely stoked for a few seasons down the road once Larsson has settled in and guys like Merrill are here.

Devils have a lot of tall mobile D-men who are 2-3 years away and your starting to see those spots made available for them.

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08-20-2011, 02:08 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Stepan Guy View Post
Del Zotto is a 40-45 point PMD, he really won't be that much, Larsson is a franchise defenseman arguably compared to Nicklas Lidstrom in his prime. The Devils won't give up on a prospect like Larsson. Stepan is the centerpiece in the deal, but is still a relatively unknown commodity. He's coming out of his first year and has decent value. Del Zotto's value has significantly diminished, very few teams want to take on a defenseman with an attitude problem.

Girardi is a great shot blocker, I'm not underrating him, but from a league perspective, he isn't exactly a producer or a great two way player. He provides good defense, but he isn't exactly a number 2 defenseman. He is indeed on a bargain contract, but let's see if the Rangers need him. There's no guarantee we can get an adequate replacement. Boyle isn't on a bargain contract, there's no guarantee he'll be a perennial 20 goal sorer. His value was boosted just a bit, he isn't Ryan Kesler, he's just a 4th liner as of this moment.

You say YOU'd rather have Staal/Cally, but so would the Devils. Don't you think Callahan and Staal have more value than Boyle and Girardi? Staal+ would be more likely for Parise.
Bold = premature.
Larsson nowhere near Lidstrom in prime TODAY. A few years from now, maybe.
That is a big part of why your evaluation is completely off.
It's a valid counterpoint to say you'd rather roll the dice and keep Larsson.
But that's not the actual point.
The actual point is the unknown value of Larsson today can buy the known value of Stepan + Del Zotto today. Is that a good idea for either/both clubs? Or do you prefer to stand pat?

Underline: I see more potential for Boyle, and he is not overpaid.
Yeah, I don't think he's dominant, but I think he's demonstrated that with average to good enough skill set players, he can get 20ish Gs. He might well do more on higher line.

Finally, not only would I prefer Staal in any event,
" Staal+ would be more likely for Parise" does not apply on a 1 year rental contract, IMO.


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Old
08-20-2011, 02:10 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Bold = premature.
Larsson nowhere near Lidstrom in prime TODAY. A few years from now, maybe.
That is a big part of why your evaluation is completely off.
It's a valid counterpoint to say you'd rather roll the dice and keep Larsson.
But that's not the actual point.
The actual point is the unknown value of Larsson today can buy the known value of Stepan + Del Zotto today. Is that a good idea for either/both clubs?
You don't trade Larsson for anything else then a prospect of the same caliber.

Devils wouldn't deal a player who is going to be a big part of the future for 2 players today when the team isn't poised for a cup run.

Would be horrible asset management to deal Larsson in the first place. Let alone for that package.

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Old
08-20-2011, 02:17 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Stepan Guy View Post
I guess you forget that Parise is a 90 point, 40 goal scorer. He may not be Stamkos, but he has a lot more value than you think.

I'd kill to have Parise on the Rangers, but isn't happening in any way besides free agency.

I dare you to show this to Devils fans, they too will ask for Staal or Callahan.

Like you said, you need to give to get, Offering Boyle + Girardi + Talbot + 3rd Rd. Pick is a lowball.
Of course they'll ask for Staal AND Callahan and the sun and the stars and the moon!
They won't get it.

It is not a lowball offer FOR ONE YEAR and he is UFA.
Please acknowledge the correctness of that factual statement.
Insisting on better terms, as if Parise was locked in, misrepresents the value.

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08-20-2011, 02:23 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
If Zach gets moved it will be a similar package that Kovalchuk got... though probably a bit better because Lou isn't a idiot like Waddel is.

1st
young potential top 6 forward
top 4 d-man
B-level prospect.

All irrelevant though Lou would never deal with the Rangers.

Nor the Flyers... in fact the Flyers offered more for Langenbrunner then Dallas did and Lou refused to deal him there....all rumored but a few reliable ppl said the same.
Agree, again why this notes value of.
That said, as to bold, I'm closer than you think:
"1st
young potential top 6 forward
top 4 d-man
B-level prospect."

Drop the pick which can be added; and a B level prospect is no big whoop.
that leaves core of
young potential top 6 forward = Boyle
top 4 d-man = Girardi

Again, thanks for basically making my point.

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08-20-2011, 02:27 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Stepan Guy View Post
So:

1st
Kreider
Girardi
Hagelin

Is that close? I'm just basing this off of your list. I would certainly consider such a deal, but I would most likely take the offer back.
That's a foolish offer!
Kreider all by himself may be better than Larsson.

He may offer most of or even ultimately exceed Parise all by himself.

And again, you're offering full contract 5-7 years for Parise when the guy can bolt after 1 year.
THINK ABOUT IT

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08-20-2011, 02:31 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by That Stepan Guy View Post
Lou will have the money to pay Parise, he'll have more than enough money. There won't be a problem in offering a contract.

The Devils are enough of a contender, do you recall when they were without Brodeur and Clemmensen stood on his head? They could very well get a goaltender that can do well and bring them into the playoffs. They have a strong defense and an offense in the midst of a transition.
I didn't say he didn't have the money, just that he wouldn't want to pay THAT much, but someone else might, and that's a real consideration that has to be made or Parise will turn into Richards II, wherever he signs, and LL like Dallas will get NOTHING.

The Devs showed some life late, I acknowledge props for that.. but you overrate them.

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08-20-2011, 02:34 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by That Stepan Guy View Post
I'm just throwing out something. I'd assume it would be around there. I would think Lou would choose between Thomas and Kreider, but Kreider is physically ready. Kreider would be ready in at least a year, so 2012-2013, Hagelin can play now. Hagelin is also on a pretty decent deal. He just needs to show what he can do at the pro level.
Again, as in recent post, no moving Kreider, too much upside.

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08-20-2011, 02:41 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Agree, again why this notes value of.
That said, as to bold, I'm closer than you think:
"1st
young potential top 6 forward
top 4 d-man
B-level prospect."

Drop the pick which can be added; and a B level prospect is no big whoop.
that leaves core of
young potential top 6 forward = Boyle
top 4 d-man = Girardi

Again, thanks for basically making my point.
Boyle isn't a top 6 forward.

Girardi would be in the deal but a 1st round pick a decent prospect and a solid young forward is required.

Just look for what Kovalchuk was traded for.. and bump that price up a little because Lou isn't a idiot.

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08-20-2011, 02:44 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by In Gordie We Trust View Post
That's the spirit

I love to tease everybody, sorry if I came across as an arrogant d!ck. We are Ranger brethren and thats what really counts.
No harm, no foul, and I asked for it.
I just ask people really pay attention to the details, like this assumes value of Larsson NOW and Parise status as 1year rental contract.

No apology necessary, the gesture appreciated.
As for you being a dick, that's between you and your girlfriend.

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08-20-2011, 02:50 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
You don't trade Larsson for anything else then a prospect of the same caliber.

Devils wouldn't deal a player who is going to be a big part of the future for 2 players today when the team isn't poised for a cup run.

Would be horrible asset management to deal Larsson in the first place. Let alone for that package.
I would agree that Larsson COULD command more, but again, until he actually shows a track record with some projection of his potential, Stepan + MDZ = worth more than 2 high firsts as a comparable. Step + MDZ would have less far to go fulfilling potential for Devs to get reasonable return. The gamble is how far does Larsson go?

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08-20-2011, 02:55 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
Boyle isn't a top 6 forward.

Girardi would be in the deal but a 1st round pick a decent prospect and a solid young forward is required.

Just look for what Kovalchuk was traded for.. and bump that price up a little because Lou isn't a idiot.
we agree on:
"Girardi would be in the deal but a 1st round pick a decent prospect and a solid young forward is required."

We disagree on: "Boyle isn't a top 6 forward."
What you actually asked for was: "young potential top 6 forward" and Boyle, presently young, presently 3rd-4th line, could upgrade into the 2nd, making him a top 6.

No need to quibble over the balance.

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08-20-2011, 03:25 PM
  #121
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Why would NJD give up a top 2 d-man with their horrible defensive depth?

Why would we give up a potential 1st line center with our weak top line center depth in the system?

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08-20-2011, 03:36 PM
  #122
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This trade makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

AS Brian Boyle mentioned, the Devils just drafted, and signed, Larsson to try to get him a roster spot this season. They drafted Larsson as a potential Niedermeyer/Stevens/Rafalski replacement, why exactly would they trade him a mere 3 months after just drafting him?

On top of that why would each team help each other out exactly. We'd be giving the Devils their center they need, and swapping d-men, while our top 4 defense is pretty much set.

As for part 2, the Devils could do much better than that offer, and why would they deal him to a division rival? And why would they deal him now after they signed him to a 1 year deal, they want to try to resign him, they haven't given up on it just yet.

It just doesn't really make sense all around.

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08-20-2011, 04:23 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Why would NJD give up a top 2 d-man with their horrible defensive depth?

Why would we give up a potential 1st line center with our weak top line center depth in the system?
This is an intelligent question, thank you.

I believe the answer, as I noted in the OP, is that there are threads where NJ laments its current state at C. So, they can give up a likely top 2 Dman, for a former #1 pick with some offensive skills who could, arguably develop into a #3-4 or maybe, maybe higher down the road, PLUS also get a sophomore C who in his rookie season not only got 20 Gs, but played well enough to be considered borderline lower 2nd C, an again, also has growth potential, which you acknowledge could even possibly be 1C potential.

NJ gets 2 for 1, and that pair has more immediately useful NHL experience.
But the 1 they give IS THOUGHT to have a likely higher ceiling.

Why NYR gives up a valued C is you have to give to get.
Larsson may or may not become elite, but he could be special.

Also, I know we all have Kreider penciled in at LW 'cause that's where he'd go if he tried out and made the club today. But that much speed might be well applied at C, and we might not trade Thomas, so, just as I'm not looking to rush Girardi out the door, neither am I looking to push out Stepan either. But if you can move good players for players who are special with an upside of elite, you do it, unless your depth is so bad, you would completely decimate the team to do so.

I believe I overlooked Fedotenko in my original lineup projection.
Add him as a 1 yr stop gap, and give hustlers like Weise and Hagelin a try.
We'll be fine.

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08-20-2011, 04:31 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
This trade makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

AS Brian Boyle mentioned, the Devils just drafted, and signed, Larsson to try to get him a roster spot this season. They drafted Larsson as a potential Niedermeyer/Stevens/Rafalski replacement, why exactly would they trade him a mere 3 months after just drafting him?

On top of that why would each team help each other out exactly. We'd be giving the Devils their center they need, and swapping d-men, while our top 4 defense is pretty much set.

As for part 2, the Devils could do much better than that offer, and why would they deal him to a division rival? And why would they deal him now after they signed him to a 1 year deal, they want to try to resign him, they haven't given up on it just yet.

It just doesn't really make sense all around.
All of this is perfectly said. Love the Avatar by the way.

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08-20-2011, 04:32 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
This trade makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

AS Brian Boyle mentioned, the Devils just drafted, and signed, Larsson to try to get him a roster spot this season. They drafted Larsson as a potential Niedermeyer/Stevens/Rafalski replacement, why exactly would they trade him a mere 3 months after just drafting him?

On top of that why would each team help each other out exactly. We'd be giving the Devils their center they need, and swapping d-men, while our top 4 defense is pretty much set.

As for part 2, the Devils could do much better than that offer, and why would they deal him to a division rival? And why would they deal him now after they signed him to a 1 year deal, they want to try to resign him, they haven't given up on it just yet.

It just doesn't really make sense all around.
Answered in prior posts on this thread.

Devs and Rangers don't trade this thread seeks value of feedback, to establish if either/each should do it not giving dominant weight to the rivalry factor.

The question is do they hold out to see how really good Larsson is, or do they consider this a tempting enough offer. Stepan + MDZ who already have experience and should thus develop faster are not chopped liver for a guy who hasn't played a single NHL game yet.
The only reason Rangers consider it is the possibility of borderline special, possibly elite ability for Larsson. If he demonstrates this faster than Stepan + MDZ grow, then it made sense not to move him. If he doesn't then the answer is not so clear cut.

We don't give the Devs anything to help them out. They acknowledge they could use both these guys as solid building blocks, and the cost is Larsson, who MIGHT be special enough to be worth it.

As for part 2, it remains to be seen how much better deal they would get, mindful that this is Parise, 1 year rental, and he can walk.

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