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What does everybody think of Muckler's job in Ottawa?

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Old
08-12-2004, 05:50 AM
  #26
VanCanuck
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He did a good job by drafting Hossa, Havlat or Spezza.
His trades were good as well. (Chara or Redden)
The signings of Philips or Chara were important for him. If he hadn't resigned them his days as our manager would be over.

The whole move to get Bondra was superfluous IMO.

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08-12-2004, 06:27 AM
  #27
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Bondra trade was pointless, they needed a 1st/2nd line PF not Bondra

Hasek will be a flop like last year, Ottawa will finish 7th-9th cuz of it, his time is over, just retire again

i did like the de Vries trade that was more of a playoff trade

i believe this is Muckler's last chance

firing Martin was a year too late but hey i love the guy just 9 years for a coach on one team, is too long, unless you can win it all at least one of those years

in this day and age, skill can only take you so far
get that damn 1st/2nd line PF already

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08-12-2004, 06:37 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go-SENS-Go
He did a good job by drafting Hossa, Havlat or Spezza.
His trades were good as well. (Chara or Redden)

That was all the work of your former GM Marshall Johnston... Who I must say made a lot better deals than Muckler so far...

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08-12-2004, 06:52 AM
  #29
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Nicely put Egil, Hossa & BG.

I believe Muckler will re-sign Havlat now that the others are in the fold. Then he will turn his attention to a free agent signing that will address the Centre position.

Possibly a trade to address the LW position. I could also see a non-Core player ala Smolinski or White, maybe with a pick, going to Chicago for one of their LWs (Daze, Calder, Bell - please Bell).

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08-12-2004, 07:02 AM
  #30
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I really think the DeVries trade is better than people think. Rachunek was a) playing worse and worse by the game and b) had demanded a trade. Muckler traded him for a defenseman we will ahve for 3.5 years, instead of for the more rentish Leach. Now, it absolutely did NOT work out last year, DeVries was switched to the right side, and struggled. But he is a better player than that, and will turn it around, IMHO. I really think Muckler was staring down the end of a barrel on that trade, and he came out looking ok, which is better than most trades made out of necessity.

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08-12-2004, 07:13 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go-SENS-Go
He did a good job by drafting Hossa, Havlat or Spezza.
His trades were good as well. (Chara or Redden)

The whole move to get Bondra was superfluous IMO.
Muckler was responsible for none of those moves.

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08-12-2004, 10:46 AM
  #32
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I think that he hasn't ton a fantastic job, but he hasn't done a terrible job either. But he still has a lot of work to do. He's made some holes on the team, and it's time to see who fills them up, so I'll save most of my judgment until that happens. He's just beginning to put his fingerprints on this team.

As for Hasek, well, fortune rewards the bold.

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08-12-2004, 11:37 AM
  #33
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The Hasek signing is kind of a repeat performance of when Muckler had to have Grant Fuhr in Buffalo. Take a look at what was given up to get him:

Dave Andreychuk
Darren Puppa
1st round draft pick (Kenny Jonsson)

Fuhr was decent in '93, then Hasek came along. (The irony is that the Blackhawks traded him for Stephane Beauregard, in a move that both teams expected to have goalies exposed in the expansion draft. So, actually, Ottawa could've had Hasek many moons ago.)

Meantime, Ted Nolan locks horns with John Muckler. Nolan comes out on the short end of the stick, as Muckler is respected around hockey (no matter what one's impressions are of what he did, or didn't do, in Edmonton). Old story, sorry for repeating. It should also be noted that other championship pedigree GM's have passed through Buffalo (Punch Imlach & Scotty Bowman) and haven't been able to elevate the organization to the absolute top level either.

Last year, the Sens were consesus pick to win it all. Hasek in net is certainly an upgrade on Lalime. Hasek's age and well-known eccentricities will come into play. Expect Ottawa to come up short yet again.

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08-12-2004, 11:40 AM
  #34
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I think the worst move he made was standing pat after the loss to Jersey in 2003. The success that the Sens had that playoff year allowed everyone to ignore the weaknesses the team had and still has (size and grit up front). That would have been the perfect time to trade some assets that were overvalued at the time (ie Todd White coming off a 60 point season) to get what the team needed to go to the next level.
His trades before then (Varada, Smolinski)were alright; his trades since then (Bondra, Devries, maybe even Hnidy) have been poor.

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08-12-2004, 12:10 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBB
I think the worst move he made was standing pat after the loss to Jersey in 2003. The success that the Sens had that playoff year allowed everyone to ignore the weaknesses the team had and still has (size and grit up front). That would have been the perfect time to trade some assets that were overvalued at the time (ie Todd White coming off a 60 point season) to get what the team needed to go to the next level.
His trades before then (Varada, Smolinski)were alright; his trades since then (Bondra, Devries, maybe even Hnidy) have been poor.
Hnidy requested a trade, and Muckler did him a favour by putting him in a good situation in Nashville. He fits right into their style, and as it looks so far, that team is going somewhere. They're also young, so he'll be able to log the ice time that he's always wanted. Hnidy had guys like Chara, Redden, Phillips, and even Volchenkov and Rachunek ahead of him on the depth chart. He knew he'd never get the ice time he wanted, so he requested a trade, and Muckler did just that. It would have been nice to keep Hnidy around, but he's probably a lot happier in Nashville.

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08-12-2004, 12:49 PM
  #36
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I won't comment on what Muckler has done. But I see here some people complaining that he didn't get a PF. First, how many PFs were traded last yr (specifically wingers)? Then, ask yourself how many PFs are actually LWs? That combination is so rare nowadays (PF LW) that the only way to get one is signing an UFA (the only major one I can think of is Shannahan but he re-signed with the Wings), theft (Raffi Torres from the Isles) or drafting them (Rick Nash). Unless Muckler is going to give one of Havlat, Hossa or Alfredsson, I don't see how you're going to get a top notch PF otherwise.

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08-12-2004, 01:15 PM
  #37
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so i ask you this? Besides the Hasek deal...(we dont even know if it was a success yet). What else has he done?

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08-12-2004, 01:33 PM
  #38
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One thing I noticed about him last year. I thought he put too much pressure on the Ottawa players.

Before game 7, I remember him saying something like "This is the most important game in Senators history."

I don't think the players really needed to hear that at the time.

In the Olympics, Gretzky did everything he could to take the pressure off the players, so I thought it was weird that Muckler did the opposite.

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08-12-2004, 01:34 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichPanther
I won't comment on what Muckler has done. But I see here some people complaining that he didn't get a PF. First, how many PFs were traded last yr (specifically wingers)? Then, ask yourself how many PFs are actually LWs? That combination is so rare nowadays (PF LW) that the only way to get one is signing an UFA (the only major one I can think of is Shannahan but he re-signed with the Wings), theft (Raffi Torres from the Isles) or drafting them (Rick Nash). Unless Muckler is going to give one of Havlat, Hossa or Alfredsson, I don't see how you're going to get a top notch PF otherwise.

For the most part, I agree with your comments, although I hardly think Torres for Janne N is "theft" by the Oilers. Janne N did not have a good year, but a B+ top four dman for a 2/3 winger is a decent deal for the Isles.

Why is everybody so down on the Bondra deal? Muckler was just loading up on his firepower, and the price hardly set the Sens aback. It was a decent, although not exceptional, move.

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08-12-2004, 01:38 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
The perfect GM in theory is supposed to;
1) fill holes
2) keep the farm system well stocked
3) keep the payroll low

Realistically, a GM can only achieve 1 or 2 of those goals.
Gee, to think all these years I thought being a good GM meant winning games. I had no idea it had little to do with being a good/perfect GM. I'm glad you cleared that up for me.

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08-12-2004, 01:49 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichPanther
I won't comment on what Muckler has done. But I see here some people complaining that he didn't get a PF. First, how many PFs were traded last yr (specifically wingers)? Then, ask yourself how many PFs are actually LWs? That combination is so rare nowadays (PF LW) that the only way to get one is signing an UFA (the only major one I can think of is Shannahan but he re-signed with the Wings), theft (Raffi Torres from the Isles) or drafting them (Rick Nash). Unless Muckler is going to give one of Havlat, Hossa or Alfredsson, I don't see how you're going to get a top notch PF otherwise.
Jeff O'Neil was on the market for a while, why not trade Havlet in a deal for O'Neil or someone like him., O'Neil play all 3 forward positions, and the sens get to keep Alfredsson and Hossa (who i would take over Havlet any day)

wouldn't surprise me if Havlet was going to hold out again this season, he can't play as good from the left side

I know Havlet is still very young and is very good, but a new coach means a new system and a new way to deal with things, so i will say it again, why not trade Havlet if it can get you O'Neil or someone like him.

and a question
is Havlet's protential stopping the sens from dealing him?

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08-12-2004, 02:01 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Why is everybody so down on the Bondra deal? Muckler was just loading up on his firepower, and the price hardly set the Sens aback. It was a decent, although not exceptional, move.
Precisely. As has been beaten to death, Power left-wingers who play top line aren't just stumbled upon. Of course thats our need, but there just ain't the availability of this type without grossly overpaying. When you have a player the calibre of Bondra coming in from a deal, that at the time was virtually unanimously seen as a good move, at a very reasonable price, you take it.

What message are you sending to the team by unloading your publicly backed starting goaltender (Lalime) at the last minute for an at-best crapshoot with an otherwise unproven goalie (Kolzig et al.) ?? Lalime bought himself and Jacques Martin their own tickets out of town after Game 7, capping off his sputtery play throughout the season. Lalime has left the Sens not a second earlier than he should have.

Re: Bonk - At the very best, Bonk was utterly ineffective in the playoffs. I feel we did well in getting a 3rd Rounder for him, despite the eventual outcome. His time was up, as clearly the Sens need a number 1 replacement be it through training camp or outside acquisition. My feelings are that this is Mike Fisher and Jason Spezzas time to put a new face to this team. If not, we'll know by this time next year right?

As someone else said, this teams window for ultimate success is still as open as ever, and this coming year, with exercising this teams high-end talent in a more offensive orientation, I concur!


Last edited by gbl1p: 08-12-2004 at 02:06 PM.
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08-12-2004, 02:13 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Gee, to think all these years I thought being a good GM meant winning games. I had no idea it had little to do with being a good/perfect GM. I'm glad you cleared that up for me.
It's the players that win the games, not the GM.

And any GM can get some extra wins by sacrificing the things on trentmccleary's list. Give up a bunch of prospects and draft picks in one sided deals to get some good players. Sign a couple expensive free agents to ridiculous contracts.

You'll improve in the short term. But long term, you've doomed the team. The converse is true as well, you can coddle the future so long that you damage your short term goals. This was Brian Burke's failure, the team stagnated because he was afraid to make a deal.

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08-12-2004, 02:45 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBB
I think the worst move he made was standing pat after the loss to Jersey in 2003. The success that the Sens had that playoff year allowed everyone to ignore the weaknesses the team had and still has (size and grit up front).
Those were not the weaknesses on the club.

The weakness last season was unexpectedly piss-poor goaltending that choked on a regular basis.

Size and grit up front as weaknesses are a myth perpetrated by an ignorant media.

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08-12-2004, 02:45 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
Jeff O'Neil was on the market for a while, why not trade Havlet in a deal for O'Neil or someone like him., O'Neil play all 3 forward positions, and the sens get to keep Alfredsson and Hossa (who i would take over Havlet any day)

wouldn't surprise me if Havlet was going to hold out again this season, he can't play as good from the left side

I know Havlet is still very young and is very good, but a new coach means a new system and a new way to deal with things, so i will say it again, why not trade Havlet if it can get you O'Neil or someone like him.

and a question
is Havlet's protential stopping the sens from dealing him?
Well, O'Neill was having trouble last season quite a bit. Plus he's primarily a RW (at least from the many,many times I watched him when I lived in NC and when I saw him play against FL where I now live). And he injured his shoulder right before the trade deadline on March 6th. Not to mention, he's not exactly the prototypical PF that Ottawa would want.

Like I said, not many LWs (especially natural ones) that can play a PF game. Regardless, as you reference, you have to give quality players to get quality players.

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08-12-2004, 02:56 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
Jeff O'Neil was on the market for a while, why not trade Havlet in a deal for O'Neil or someone like him., O'Neil play all 3 forward positions, and the sens get to keep Alfredsson and Hossa (who i would take over Havlet any day)

wouldn't surprise me if Havlet was going to hold out again this season, he can't play as good from the left side

I know Havlet is still very young and is very good, but a new coach means a new system and a new way to deal with things, so i will say it again, why not trade Havlet if it can get you O'Neil or someone like him.

and a question
is Havlet's protential stopping the sens from dealing him?
First it's Havlat, not Havlet and the main reason why he wasn't as effective on the left side is becaue of the system Jacques Martin used (this is also why Bondra was ineffective on LW) but a new system can only mean good things for Havlat if he is going to play on the LW. Trading a young Havlat for O'Neil who is more expensive and approaching UFA status would be plain stupid, Havlat has loads of potential and IMO has even more offensive potential than Hossa. Everyone wants to see a PF LW in Ottawa but like a lot of people have said they are very rare (RichPanther explained it very well), that's why Muckler's taking chances on guys like Pat Kavanaugh and Josh Langfeld who might not have the potential to be Todd Bertuzzi's but could resemble Holmström if used in a good system. The core of this team is young and just hitting their primes (Redden, Hossa, Chara, Phillips) their captain is locked up long term and is still pretty young and they have 3 very promising hockey players in Havlat, Spezza and Vermette (all pretty much established as NHL regulars - although Vermette isn't yet) so they are not in a win now situation. I think Muckler's doing the right thing by not sacrificing one of his core or future core player for a LW PF because he knows he'd have to overpay. I really like what he's doing by trading for Charlie Stephens, signing Pat Kavanaugh and giving a chance to Langfeld.... guys with big frames who, back when they were drafted, had the potential to be 2nd tier PF in the league; if he's lucky it might still happen. The senators window for a cup is still wide open and Muckler knows it, that's why he's not gonna trade Havlat or Spezza for a PF. What I think Muckler has done wrong with the whole PF issue is that he hasn't taking enough chances on "PF projects" in the two drafts he was with the team although one could argue that Patrick Eaves, depsite his size, has the potential to be a "crash & bang" top line winger.

Also you guys can blame Muckelr for doing certain trades or signing certain players but he can't be blamed for not trading for a certain player or signing a certain UFA as we don't know who was really available and what was the asking price.

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08-12-2004, 06:10 PM
  #47
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muckler will be the downfall of the sens... they are still a very good team but all his moves i question so far... the team, as a result of muckler, has gotten older and more expensive... lalime at over $2 million a year is better than having a questionable hasek

he kinda threw lalime and bonk out for nothing... bonk i can understand cuz his qualifying offer is too high but lalime was fine at $2 mill...

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08-12-2004, 06:14 PM
  #48
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Well he hasn't done anything either great or horrible yet and the Sens still have plenty of time to get the big prize.

I guess you could say he has been unable to get them over the hump up to this point but you sure can't say he isn't taking some gambles this offseason.

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08-12-2004, 06:36 PM
  #49
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John Muckler inherited a tremendous situation in Ottawa.He has not done much to put the team over the hump.Eugene Melnyk gave him the extra funds to get the job done.His choice of head coach in Bryan Murray was an odd choice.Muckler needs to make the Senators a tougher team to play against.The decision to go with Dominik Hasek is a gamble.How much longer will Melnyk wait until he brings in his own guy?

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08-12-2004, 06:39 PM
  #50
ErnestoGuevara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriss_co
muckler will be the downfall of the sens... they are still a very good team but all his moves i question so far... the team, as a result of muckler, has gotten older and more expensive... lalime at over $2 million a year is better than having a questionable hasek

he kinda threw lalime and bonk out for nothing... bonk i can understand cuz his qualifying offer is too high but lalime was fine at $2 mill...
People in Ottawa would've asked for Muckler's head if he didn't find a new goalie and get rid of Lalime... I don't think Lalime can be blamed for the playoff outing even with hsi poor performance in game 7 but he, along with Bonk and Martin to a certain extent, paid the price for loosing in the first round. Lalime would've actualy cost 3,5mil (more than what Hasek will make next year) but it's still a good price for a #1 goalie, the fact is he had to get rid of Lalime because that's what all the fans and media in the Ottawa region wanted. It was the same thing with Bonk, plus he was too expensive. The team did get older and more expensive but at least Muckler didn't trade away any of his core players. He only traded prospects and picks, and not his best prospect as he has held onto Vermette, Mirnov, Emery, Kaigorodov, Eaves and Bochenski. Sure he has made a few questionable moves (the de Vries/Rachunek trade comes to mind) but in no way is he destroying this team. Muckler's trying to keep the core of the team together and surrounding them with support players like Smolinski, Varada, de Vries, Ray etc. That's what any GM in this situation would do, you can't blame him for that. The trade he has made for these support players didn't cost him too much but unfortunatly it didn't really work out for him as the acquisitions have been inconsistent or didn't pay off at all. Really when you think about it moving a mid-level prospect and a 2nd rounder for one of greatest goal-scorer in the league to add more firepower to your offense and specialy your LW isn't a bad idea at all and moving a young but inconsitent defenceman who held out the season before and wasn't happy with his situation with the team (almost demanded a trade) for a more experienced, grittier and more consistent, altough older, defenseman isn't a bad idea either; the players just didn't deliver. Who is it that should be blamed??? the players themselves? The coach for not pushing them or not using them in the best way possible?? The new system they weren't used to?? Their old team for sending them to Ottawa out of shape or injured?? Who knows but I really think it's unfair to blame the GM. Muckler is a GM who likes to trade and that's a good thing because if he wouldn't have gone out to acquire Smolinski, Varada, Bondra, Hasek, de Vries etc well people would be even more angry at him for "stading still".

All in all, his trades were good trades on paper and in theory so it's really not his fault if the players didn't deliver. He managed to keep the core intact without throwing away too much cash (just think about the Alfredsson deal or the Chara deal). His prospect pool is also almost intact (first tier prospect are still with the team) and he has most of his picks for the next years. He has also signed/traded for valuable players for the farm that may get called up to the big club in case of injuries. Besides he still has de Vries, Smolinski, Varada and he's apparently trying to re-sign Bondra at a lower salary, if the Sens win the cup or get to the final next year these trades will look really good. Basicly what I'm trying to say is that he has certainly not damaged this team and that his previous trades might still have the impact wanted next year as Muckler was smart enough not to go for rental players.

I know some of you will say he might have done some damaged to the team in front of the net but he really didn't have the choice and besides he really has confidence in Prusek, who he sees almost on the same level as his predecessor Lalime, and he has a great young prospect in Ray Emery.

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