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MLD2011 - Sir Montagu Allan SF - (1) Eden Hall Warriors vs. (4) Thunder Bay Twins

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Old
08-23-2011, 04:20 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I feel like using GF for coaches can be used either way depending on how one prefers.

i.e. "Julien's team finished 29th in goals so he is not a good offensive coach", or "Julien clearly had no one to work with - look at his team, they finished just 29th in goals!"
Exactly. Personally, I find it amazing that they were still able to be a playoff team with so little offensive talent. I mean, Zdeno Chara was 3rd in team scoring with 44 points, only 8 behind the leaders that season.

(Did that work for you? )

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08-23-2011, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
According to hockey-reference, they finished 29th (206 goals vs Calgary's 204). Weird. Anyway...
hockey-reference and the official NHL standings include a "goal" for each of Boston's 10 shootout wins that year. They were 30th in actual hockey goals.

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08-23-2011, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
hockey-reference and the official NHL standings include a "goal" for each of Boston's 10 shootout wins that year. They were 30th in actual hockey goals.
ha, okay solves that then.

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08-23-2011, 11:17 PM
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Eden Hall's biggest advantage is the strength of our first line

I'm going to spend a lot of time comparing first lines - as I think that's where the biggest difference between the teams lies- and it's very much in Eden Hall's favor. Both teams have good, but not great lines 2-4 with various strengths and weaknesses.

First lines

Eden Hall has an explosive first line - one of the fastest in the entire draft. McGimsie "was one of the fastest forwards of the day, as well as one of the finest passers," Drozdetsky was described as "explosive," and Mickoski, the two-way worker "skated like the wind." (All quotes are sourced in their profiles).

Both Drozdetsky and McGimsie can score goals and pass the puck at an extremely high level for the MLD, and Mickoski , "the most diligent worker" of the late 50s Blackhawks was a big man who could win battles and serve as the defensive conscience of the line, while still possessing the wheels to keep up with his smaller, highly skilled linemates.

First line centers

Billy McGimsie is a superstar at the MLD level. His stats show him to be almost as good at scoring goals as Tommy Phillips. who many contemporaries considered the best hockey player ever prior to World War I. There are no reliable assist records for the Manitoba League when McGimsie played, but he appears to have had a reputation as the primary playmaker on the Phillips - McGimsie - Hooper line. So if McGimsie is almost as good as Phillips at scoring goals and more well-known as a playmaker, then why is Tommy Phillips universally regarded as the better player? The main reason is that Phillips was an elite player in all areas of the ice, while nobody really talks about McGimsie's two-way game. Plus, Phillips had a knack for coming up huge in Stanley Cup challenges; McGimsie was good in them... but not as good.

Still, McGimsie has to place among the elite offensive players at the MLD level.

Boldirev, on the other hand, is quite weak as first line centers go. As far as I am aware, Boldriev, like McGimsie, is an offense-only player, but his offense isn't nearly as the same level. He never finished Top 10 in any scoring category. He finished top 20 in points just once – 16th in 1978, a finish less impressive than it sounds, as it was only 65% of the second place scorer’s total. (Remember how watered down the late 70s were, with so much of the world’s talent either in Europe or the WHA).

I don’t see the point of trying to figure out McGimsie’s percentages when assists weren’t even recorded and the eras were so different, so I’ll compare Boldirev’s vs. 2 numbers (removing the Orr or Esposito when either one comes up as #2) with those of Scott Gomez and Alexei Zhamnov. I’m using those two since I think they are both above average but not spectacular second liners… and Dreakmur already did the work of figuring out their percentages.

Boldirev points % = 66, 65, 60, 59, 55, 53, 52, 50, 49,
Gomez points % = 80, 74, 68, 66, 54, 53, 53, 53, 53, 53
Zhamnov points % = 93, 74, 64. 59, 57, 57, 56, 54, 51

Needless to say, Boldirev’s offense output is not impressive as MLD centers go.

First line center is a very large advantage for Eden Hall. McGimsie was one of the top overall offensive players of his era, while Boldirev’s numbers are very unimpressive compared to his peers.

The Scoring Wingers

Nikolai Drozdetsky vs. Jack MacDonald

It’s hard to compare an early ear guy like MacDonald with a Soviet player like Drozdetsky. Still, I think Drozdetsky’s greatness is better established.

I don’t find sub top-10 finishes in the pre-1926 split leagues to be meaningful at all, so I’ll list MacDonald’s top 10 finishes from Judge’s profile.

Goals: 4th, 7th (NHA/NHL); 6th (PCHA)
Assists: 4th, 4th, 8th, 9th, 10th (doesn’t say what league, but I assume these are all split leagues.

Hard to place him without known the points finishes or percentages (feel free to do the hard work, Judge), but I’d say MacDonald looks like one of the top playmaking wings in the draft, but merely adequate as a goal scorer, considering the strength of his leagues (all pre-consolidation). Unfortunately, the guys he would be passing to are unimpressive scorers themselves.

Drozdetsky finished 3rd, 3rd, 10th in overall scoring in a very strong Soviet league before Tikhonov buried him and was named Soviet Player of the Year in one of those seasons (over the members of the Green Unit).

He scored an outstanding 64 goals in 109 games for the National team (0.58 GPG), despite never playing on the top unit. For comparison, Makarov scored 189 in 315 (0.60), Krutov scored 150 in 255 (0.59), Kapustin scored 120 in 208 (0.57), and Balderis scored 74 in 147 (0.50).

Drozdetsky is definitely the better goal scorer, and MacDonald is probably the better playmaker (but who is he passing to?) Impossible to know for sure who the better overall player is, but I think Drozdetsky’s greatness has been better established compared to players who are known quantities (the other Soviet greats of the early 80s).

The “glue guy” wingers

Nick Mickoski vs. Michael Renberg – both these guys play the same role on their respective lines – the big body who serves as the puck winner and defensive conscience of the line. Mickoski is definitely a faster skater, which is good because it means he can keep up with his linemates. How do them compare offensively?

Mickoski points %: 58, 53, 52, 49, 49, 42, 39 (seventieslord)
Renberg points %: 81, 68, 58, 42

Renberg has several seasons in the 30-39% range, but I omitted them, as literally 100s of players had such seasons post-expansion. Even in Renberg’s poor seasons, he continued to get power play time, and I’m pretty sure Mickoski rarely got PP time even in his good seasons. Such will happen when 30 teams each have 2 PP units vs. 6 teams each with 1 unit in the 1950s.

With that in mind, I really don’t think Renberg’s second best season is any better than Mickoski’s best season, especially when you consider:

1) Percentages tend to actually make post-expansion players look better than they actually are versus pre-expansion players.

2) Mickoski got his numbers generally playing on the checking line and likely with very little PP time, while Renberg played a few seasons as the third wheel of one of the best lines of the modern era and received PP time his entire career. In fact, during Renberg's one and only outstanding season, his linemate (Lindros) tied for the league lead in points.

Both men brought similar things to the table away from the puck, though Mickoski did it for longer. Renberg has the better peak offensive season, but Mickoski has several more seasons as a productive player. I prefer my glue guys to be consistent, so my personal preference is for Mickoski who was a hard working two-way player during long NHL career. Though I don't think the difference is all that big either way.

Fun fact: A testament to Mickoski’s consistency is that as of the 1967 expansion, he ranked 84th all-time in NHL scoring. I believe that Gus Bodnar (65th) is the only player ahead of Mickoski on this list to fall to the MLD.

Overall: The biggest difference between these two teams is the substantial advantage Eden Hall has on the first line, particularly the large difference in the quality of our first line centers. I expect Eden Hall's first line to score quite a bit more often than Thunder Bay's first line in this series.


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08-24-2011, 12:09 AM
  #30
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Thoughts about the 2nd-4th lines

I don't intend to go into the lower lines in detail, but if Judge wants to, I'll respond. I'll just make a few observations first:
  • I think Marian Stastny is the best offensive player on either team's lower lines
  • Ribeiro is better offensively than Gagner (2 Top 20 points finishes vs 0 for Gagner), but Gagner is better away from the puck. Not sure who is better overall
  • Dahlen is probably the best guy along the boards in the MLD. Payne isn't nearly as good along the boards, but he doesn't necessarily have to be, as Gagner seems like a harder worker than Ribeiro. On the other hand, Payne is better offensively than Dahlen.
  • I think Sundstrom is the best-rounded player on either team's third line. Big fan of him. Like Maloney, a lot too. Don't like Young all that much - he had one good offensive season and was good but not all-time good defensively.
  • Eden Hall's third line is one of the few lines in the draft that might be even faster than Eden Hall's first line! All three players are hard working two-way guys, and don't underestimate Roland Pettersson's size!
  • I'm not sure what you're going for with your 4th line. Seems a weird mix of players. Hartnell can play on my 4th line any day. Colin Patterson is a very good defensiive specialist with no offensive skills (like Tippett). What's Brendan Morrison supposed to do? He's okay defensively, but not a shutdown guy, and his playmaking game will be wasted playing between two guys with hands of stone.
  • Eden Hall's 4th line is very specialized. Then won't score much (though McKay had a knack for scoring big goals). They are out there to play a grinding, shutdown game, similar to the Detroit's Grind Line of recent memory.
  • The two teams seemed to have different philosophies when constructing their depth lines: Eden Hall has a very good offensive second line (and Dahlen is a decent defensive player), a two-way third line, and a grindy shutdown fourth line. Thunder Bay's lines are better balanced, but none has the offensive upside of Eden Hall's second line or the shutdown ability of Eden Hall's fourth line.
  • I expect Thunder Bay's second and third lines to be fairly effective in the two-way game, but I don't think Morrison will be very effective on the fourth line centering the twins of cement hands.


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08-24-2011, 01:13 AM
  #31
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Eden Hall has at least one defensive presence on each forward line

Since we talked about coaching so much, let me point out one way in which Eden Hall is a great fit for Julien. Julien expects at least one member of each line to hang back in a defensive posture - in NJ he played a locking system. On lines 2-4 in NJ, the center hung back. On the top line (Elias - Gomez - Gionta), Elias hung back. Many Devils fans hated Julien for basically neutering Elias's offense that season, and it was a big reason why so many were happy to see him go. But if a coach's system relies on having a guy hang back as a defensive cover, it's not like Gomez was up for the task, and Gionta's chemistry in the offensive zone with Gomez was too great.

Eden Hall is tailor-made for Julien in this way. Mickoski was a fine two-way player Dahlen was pretty good defensively. These guys are well-suited to play the defensive role Julien expects, while McGimsie-Drozdetsky and Ribeiro - Stastny think all-offense. And it's not like Mickoski and Dahlen are offensively inept.

All 3 members of Eden Hall's 3rd line are fine two-way players and all 3 members of the 4th line are excellent defensive players. Julien will like that.

(And as indicated previously, the more offensive-minded Muckler brings balance to the coaching staff if anyone is concerned that Julien is too defensive).

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08-24-2011, 01:50 PM
  #32
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The real question about this series:


Will Dave Tippett have inside information to share with his team that has been gleaned from Dave Tippett on the other team?

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08-24-2011, 05:38 PM
  #33
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Dave Tippett's lips are sealed. He knows better than to talk to Dave Tippett.

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08-24-2011, 07:13 PM
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Interesting points TDMM.

Some further considerations for everyone's perusal and enjoyment:

Drozdetsky

He was an effective player - on international ice. Nearly every player who has done both will tell you that the game is significantly different when you scale down (or up) the rink dimensions. Drozdetsky will need to fight through a tough, checking, and defensive Thunder Bay line up - with less space than he is used to. How will he respond? History has shown that results do not necessarily translate between the international and north american games. If he fails to overcome the challenges of north american hockey, Eden Hall's entire first line could grind to a screeching halt.

Pettersson faces the same challenges as Drozdetsky, and could reduce the effectiveness of Eden Hall's third line if he does not translate.

Physicality

Thunder Bay boasts solid checkers throughout the lineup, and some of the best fighters in the draft (Hutchison, Maloney, Hunter as a 13th forward). I can see players like Ribeiro and Statsny having some issues through a seven game series with getting constantly knocked around. The only player on Eden Hall's line up thats capable of doing any sort of policing is McKay, and he can't be on the ice all the time.

Adaptability

Thunder Bay offers a very diverse lineup. From goal scorers to checkers to playmakers to grinders. Thunder Bay's top two lines will mostly play as listed, and offer a very balanced design for playoff hockey. The bottom six can cater to any situation: Need more scoring? Morrison moves up with Maloney and Sundstrom. Want to set the tone physically? Hunter slots in with Hartnell and Patterson.

Eden Hall was questioning Morrison as a fourth line center. He was chosen for his adaptability. Throughout his career Morrison has done everything from shutdown fourth line center to defensive conscience and playmaker for an offensive first line. He finds chemistry with his linemates easily, and is a very intelligent player. He gives Tippett options, and the team depth.

more to follow..

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08-24-2011, 07:34 PM
  #35
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Interesting points TDMM.

Some further considerations for everyone's perusal and enjoyment:

Drozdetsky

He was an effective player - on international ice. Nearly every player who has done both will tell you that the game is significantly different when you scale down (or up) the rink dimensions. Drozdetsky will need to fight through a tough, checking, and defensive Thunder Bay line up - with less space than he is used to. How will he respond? History has shown that results do not necessarily translate between the international and north american games. If he fails to overcome the challenges of north american hockey, Eden Hall's entire first line could grind to a screeching halt.

Pettersson faces the same challenges as Drozdetsky, and could reduce the effectiveness of Eden Hall's third line if he does not translate.
Interesting strategy, trying to discredit the accomplishments of Pettersson and Drozdetsky on big consider, considering you were just trying to build up the accomplishments of your goalie on that same ice surface. Changing the size of the ice surface completely changes the angles a goalie deals with.

Not to mention, Mark Streit's stock depends largely on whether you give him any credit for what he did in the international game.

Also, I don't think it's ever been established what ice surface we are playing on.

Quote:
Physicality

Thunder Bay boasts solid checkers throughout the lineup, and some of the best fighters in the draft (Hutchison, Maloney, Hunter as a 13th forward). I can see players like Ribeiro and Statsny having some issues through a seven game series with getting constantly knocked around. The only player on Eden Hall's line up thats capable of doing any sort of policing is McKay, and he can't be on the ice all the time.
Don't forget about Jack Evans. 80 points and 989 PIMs in 752 career NHL games makes it obvious what type of player he was.

"There have been few players with more raw strength than Jack "Tex" Evans"

Or the aptly named Garth Butcher. Butcher ranks 31st all-time with 2302 PIMs in 897 career games. Butcher is basically the same player as Hutchinson, only Butcher was talented enough to be selected to an All Star Game.

I really hope you dress Tim Hunter. The guy was a glorified goon in real life, a career 4th liner who played in the 1980s, when the talent pool hadn't yet caught up to the size of the league, so 4th lines were full of goons. Eden Hall would absolutely skate circles around Hunter whenever he would take the ice. Luckily for you, I think your version of Dave Tippett is too smart to do such a thing.

Quote:
Adaptability

Thunder Bay offers a very diverse lineup. From goal scorers to checkers to playmakers to grinders. Thunder Bay's top two lines will mostly play as listed, and offer a very balanced design for playoff hockey. The bottom six can cater to any situation: Need more scoring? Morrison moves up with Maloney and Sundstrom. Want to set the tone physically? Hunter slots in with Hartnell and Patterson.
This is definitely a team strength for Thunder Bay. But Eden Hall has an incredibly versatile lineup: Ulf Dahlen can play both wings, Steve Sullivan and Sami Kapenen can play all 3 forward positions (and Kapanen can play D in an emergency!). Steve Sullivan and Sami Kapanen are versatile enough players where they can play any role on any line if needed. Even our spares, Matt Cooke and Jeff Carter, have dabbled in multiple positions.

Quote:
Eden Hall was questioning Morrison as a fourth line center. He was chosen for his adaptability. Throughout his career Morrison has done everything from shutdown fourth line center to defensive conscience and playmaker for an offensive first line. He finds chemistry with his linemates easily, and is a very intelligent player. He gives Tippett options, and the team depth.

more to follow..
You might be right that Morrison was used as a shutdown fourth line center, but wasn't this just in the last season when he wasn't good enough to play anywhere else? I don't remember him being a particular standout at it, though I could be wrong.


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08-24-2011, 07:41 PM
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If we're playing the "whose game translates better into the modern game" thing, an 80s European like Drozdetsky who played on the big ice surface when fighting was prohibited, or a guy who played before the forward pass was allowed, when goalies weren't allowed to leave their feet, and when forwards were capable of playing the full 60 minutes by loafing for most of them....

I might be inclined to take the 80s European.

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08-24-2011, 08:10 PM
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Interesting strategy, trying to discredit the accomplishments of Pettersson and Drozdetsky on big consider, considering you were just trying to build up the accomplishments of your goalie on that same ice surface. Changing the size of the ice surface completely changes the angles a goalie deals with.

Not to mention, Mark Streit's stock depends largely on whether you give him any credit for what he did in the international game.
There's a difference: We know how Streit and Lindbergh's games translate(d) to the NHL. Their international accomplishments simply add to their resumes.

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08-24-2011, 08:14 PM
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There's a difference: We know how Streit and Lindbergh's games translate(d) to the NHL.
Streit sure - he had 1 mediocre and 3 very good seasons in the NHL. For Lindbergh, we have 1 excellent, 1 good, and 1 poor season to go on.

Are you one of the people who thinks that Valeri Kharlamov is not a top 100 player of all time because we don't know how his game would translate into the NHL? It's not provably wrong, but I definitely don't agree with it.

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08-24-2011, 08:25 PM
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Streit sure - he had 1 mediocre and 3 very good seasons in the NHL. For Lindbergh, we have 1 excellent, 1 good, and 1 poor season to go on.

Are you one of the people who thinks that Valeri Kharlamov is not a top 100 player of all time because we don't know how his game would translate into the NHL? It's not provably wrong, but I definitely don't agree with it.
Ranking players from outside the NHL as top players is certainly justified.

But it is also fair to say that I don't know how they'd perform on an NHL team for a playoff series on small ice. Maybe they'd perform well, but there are always players who have games that do not translate. If that turns out to be the case, an entire lines chemistry will be off. I'd take someone who has proven they can do it over someone who hasn't.

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08-24-2011, 08:50 PM
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Ranking players from outside the NHL as top players is certainly justified.

But it is also fair to say that I don't know how they'd perform on an NHL team for a playoff series on small ice. Maybe they'd perform well, but there are always players who have games that do not translate. If that turns out to be the case, an entire lines chemistry will be off. I'd take someone who has proven they can do it over someone who hasn't.
How do we know we are on small ice here?

Edit: And it's not like NHL ice has always been a standard size.

The entire Soviet system was geared towards performance in international competitions. In that way, International Tournaments were basically the ultimate prize and most-pressure filled games for the Soviets, the closest thing they had to the NHL playoffs. And Drozdetsky was an outstanding player in international tournaments during his short career.


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08-24-2011, 09:00 PM
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How do we know we are on small ice here?
Both Thunder Bay and Eden Hall are located in North America, and neither city/town has an international rink.

But I digress..

I am not trying to say that international accomplishments are void. I simply wanted to make everyone aware that the nature of the series must be taken into consideration when determining how different players fit in.

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08-24-2011, 09:15 PM
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Both Thunder Bay and Eden Hall are located in North America, and neither city/town has an international rink.
Heh, good one.

Though I'm pretty sure neither town has an NHL-calibre rink either. Eden Hall's home games will be played in front of crowds ranging from 50-100 people. Heh.

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08-24-2011, 09:24 PM
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Heh, good one.

Though I'm pretty sure neither town has an NHL-calibre rink either. Eden Hall's home games will be played in front of crowds ranging from 50-100 people. Heh.
Haha valid as well.. I was being a bit tongue in cheek with my last comment obviously.

Thunder Bay at least has a hockey arena that holds about 4000.

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08-24-2011, 09:46 PM
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Heh, good one.

Though I'm pretty sure neither town has an NHL-calibre rink either. Eden Hall's home games will be played in front of crowds ranging from 50-100 people. Heh.
HEY!!! Those crowds in the Mighty Ducks movies easily number in the thousands!

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08-25-2011, 03:02 AM
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Defensemen

First let me say that I really like your new arrangement of defensemen and the more I look, the more I think I underestimated them as a group prior to this series. You do have an excellent group of defensemen.

That said, I think Eden Hall's defensive corps is even better.

First off, there are only 4 drafted defensemen in this draft who ever finished Top 5 in Norris voting, and Eden Hall has two of them (Jack Evans and Brian Campbell). The other two (Hugh Evans and Drew Doughty) only played 3 full seasons each, while Campbell has played at a high level since the lockout and Evans had a very long career. But Norris Top 5s aren't the end of it (indeed, the trophy has only existed since the 1950s), so let us look at the defensemen in more detail:

The top 4 defensive guys: Jack Evans / Walt Buswell vs. Ted Graham / Marcus Ragnarsson

I think it makes sense to compare these 4 guys together since they are all defense first guys.

Buswell and Graham are very easy to compare - they played at the exact same time and both seemed to play strong, smart positional defense. Buswell was a regular from 32-33 until 39-40. Graham was a regular from 30-31 until 36-37 and played half a season the year before.

Their All-Star records?

Buswell finished 6th and 8th and received 1-2 votes on two more occasions.

Graham finished 7th and 7th and did not receive token votes on other occasions.

Close, but I think Buswell has a marginal advantage given his 2 additional seasons of token consideration plus the fact that he was enough of a leader to be named captain of the Canadians for a season. I don't think it will make much of a difference on the ice, however.

Jack Evans and Marcus Ragnarsson are both defense-only guys. The only stylistic difference is that Evans was especially noted for his physical strength.

Evans was a better player than Ragnarsson and I don't think it's close. He tied for 5th in Norris voting in 1962 and finished 12th in 1961. He also received a single vote in another season. Ragnarsson, on the other hand, never received a single vote for the Norris or a Postseason All-Star Team.

Don't get me wrong - Ragnarsson is a very solid #4 here. He was selected to play in an NHL all-star game as a defense-only guy in the modern era - not an easy task! But he's not in the same league as Jack Evans, Walt Buswell, or Ted Graham, all of whom are or could be good #1 shutdown guys at this level.

Ragnarsson, while a very good defenseman, is clearly the least accomplished of these four.

The two-way guys: Mike O'Connell vs. Al Hamilton

Al Hamilton is a tough guy to get a read on. He was a 2nd Team WHA All Star in 1974, back when the WHA had a pretty good group of defensemen. He was a 1st Team WHA All Star in 1978 over Rick Ley and a bunch of nobodies. One of the top offensive defensemen in a league that didn't care much about defense.

Mike O'Connell was a Brian Rafalski type of defenseman, offense-first but took care of his own end. Known as a shot blocker (which Rafalski wasn't). Finished 8th in Norris voting once. His size is his only disadvantage.

I hate figuring out points rankings among defensemen, so I'm not going to do it. But O'Connell scored 53, 39, 53, 60, 55, 37, 31 points in consecutive seasons in the early 80s NHL. Pretty good. Hamilton scored 30 and 34 points during his only 2 good seasons in the NHL (ages 25-26 when he should have been in his prime), though the league was lower scoring in the early 70s. He then went on to score 61, 59, 14,* 34, 45, 54, 44 points in consective seasons in the WHA.

*injured.

Considering Hamilton was playing in a much weaker league and barely scored more than O'Connell did, I'm going to have to say that O'Connell was better offensively. I honestly don't know who was better defensively - both have quotes about being "reliable." Hamilton was large, and O'Connell tiny, so that's a factor in Hamilton's favor.

Hamilton is the better leader, like Buswell, that doesn't affect the team on the ice so much (both men are wearing letters like they should be).

O'Connell is the better offensive player, by an amount that is hard to calculate. They seem to have similar defensive reputations. Hamilton was larger and much more physical. Not sure who is better overall.

The Offensive aces: Brian Campbell vs. Mark Streit

Two guys we've seen a lot of, and both guys who I think can be underrated. Campbell was never worth his big contract, as his defense can best be described as "adequate." But keep in mind that he did log huge minutes on a very good Buffalo team (one that reached the Conference finals) before signing the huge contract with Chicago and quickly losing his spot as Chicago's #1 to the emerging Duncan Keith. Streit was the only bright spot an an awful Islanders team for 2 years, but a lot of people don't realize that he starred for Switzerland for almost a decade before coming to the NHL.

Streit:
8th, 10th, 13th in Norris voting
10th, 13th, 13th in All-Star voting
1 All Star Game

Campbell:
5th, 10th in Norris voting
4th, 9th, 16th in All-Star voting
3 All Star Games

After Campbell's peak, he proved a very useful second pairing defenseman, as he carried the secondary puck moving duties for the Stanley Cup winning Blackhawks. Before Streit came to the NHL, he was a big part of Team Switzerland's surprisingly good teams in the 2002 and 2006 Olympics.

I think Campbell has a small advantage because his best season was better. He was 3rd in NHL scoring the year he was a 2nd Team All Star. Streit was 3rd in NHL scoring his one good season in Montreal, but was only 13th in Norris and All-Star voting as everyone knew that his offense was inflated by playing next to Andrei Markov on the powerplay.

(If you don't place any stock in what Streit did for Switzerland before coming to the NHL, then Campbell is clearly better here).

Summary of top 4 defensemen:

Both teams have excellent Top 4s, but Eden Hall's is better. The key difference is that Ragnarsson, while a very good player, is clearly not as good as Evans, Buswell, or Graham.

Depth defensemen

Ehrhoff should probably be considered a better defenseman than Manery by now. Similar career lengths – Ehrhoff has played for 6.5 seasons and Manery played for 7.5. But Erhoff has the better peak seasons – finished 8th and 9th in Norris voting (and 7th and 10th in All-Star voting). Manery never received a vote for the Norris in his life, though he was chosen to play in a single All-Star game.

Manery logged huge minutes for below average teams, but Ehrhoff has played fairly big minutes himself (though not as big) for much better teams. Manery might be a bit better in his own zone, but Ehrhoff provides more offense and is a bit better overall.

Hutchinson and Butcher are very similar players – both hard hitting, brawling defensive defensemen. But I think Butcher is better – he played in an All-Star game, Brett Hull considered him one of the 7 best defensemen he played with in St. Louis and the others are all ATD-quality guys. St. Louis thought so highly of Butcher that they basically traded their entire second line for him (a move that backfired as they then lost in the playoffs largely do to lack of secondary scoring).

Eden Hall has more talent on the bottom pair. Thunder Bay does get bonus points for reuniting the real-life chemistry of Manery and Hutchinson, but is how useful is the chemistry from teams that lost more than they won?

For what it's worth, Paul Martin is a better-rounded spare than the defense-only Bouchard.

Overall defensemen

Both teams have very good defensive corps, but Eden Hall's is better in two key ways:

1) Of the quartet of Top 4 defensive defensemen (Evans, Buswell, Graham, Ragnarsson), Ragnarsson is definitely the least impressive.

2) Eden Hall has more talent on the bottom pair.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-25-2011 at 07:12 AM.
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08-25-2011, 02:27 PM
  #46
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Additional info:

Marcus Ragnarsson

I did some additional digging about Ragnarsson, because I remember him being better than my bio indicates.

Some international highlights to supplement his solid NHL career:

1989-1990 Elitserien Champion
1990-1991 Elitserien Champion
1991-1992 Elitserien SM-silver Medal
1994-1995 World Championship Silver Medal - Sweden
1996-1997 World Championship Silver Medal - Sweden
1997-1998 Olympic Games - Sweden
2001-2002 Olympic Games - Sweden
2003-2004 World Cup - Sweden
2008-2009 Elitserien All-Star Team
2008-2009 Elitserien Defenseman of the Year "Salming Trophy"
2008-2009 Elitserien Highest ATOI (26:12)
2008-2009 Elitserien Most Assists by Defenseman (25)
2008-2009 Elitserien Most Points by Defenseman (37)
2009-2010 Elitserien SM-silver Medal

And more support for his tough, physical play and smart break-out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLPA
Put out your best scoring line against the Philadelphia Flyers, and you can bet Philly head coach Ken Hitchcock will have Marcus Ragnarsson on the ice. The big Swede is tough in his own end, especially along the boards, and can make the patient play to start the counter attack.

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08-25-2011, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
Thunder Bay does get bonus points for reuniting the real-life chemistry of Manery and Hutchinson, but is how useful is the chemistry from teams that lost more than they won?
Some of the marginal stuff I let slide, but I can't let this one go

Anaheim had some very mediocre records in the mid 90's. I suppose Selanne and Kariya's chemistry isn't very useful?

There's a multitude of other examples.

My third pairing is going to be very effective. The beauty of that statement is that unlike most pairings/lines in this draft, I am not speculating; it actually happened. Hutchison will play a physically intimidating game, keep the creases clear, win puck battles, and make forwards regret crossing the blue line. Manery will fluidly start the counter attack, support play in all three zones, and demonstrate positionally sound hockey.

Look for my third pairing to surprise in this series.


Last edited by TheJudge: 08-25-2011 at 02:52 PM.
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08-25-2011, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJudge View Post
Additional info:

Marcus Ragnarsson

I did some additional digging about Ragnarsson, because I remember him being better than my bio indicates.

Some international highlights to supplement his solid NHL career:

1989-1990 Elitserien Champion
1990-1991 Elitserien Champion
1991-1992 Elitserien SM-silver Medal
1994-1995 World Championship Silver Medal - Sweden
1996-1997 World Championship Silver Medal - Sweden
1997-1998 Olympic Games - Sweden
2001-2002 Olympic Games - Sweden
2003-2004 World Cup - Sweden
2008-2009 Elitserien All-Star Team
2008-2009 Elitserien Defenseman of the Year "Salming Trophy"
2008-2009 Elitserien Highest ATOI (26:12)
2008-2009 Elitserien Most Assists by Defenseman (25)
2008-2009 Elitserien Most Points by Defenseman (37)
2009-2010 Elitserien SM-silver Medal

And more support for his tough, physical play and smart break-out:
Just to put some context to his SEL team. They were a dream team back when Ragnarsson played. Having Ridderwall, Söderström, Sundin, Garpenlöv, Ragnarsson, Mikael Johansson, Arto Blomsten, Södergren, Charles Berglund, Waltin, Czerkawski etc.

Ragnarsson wasn't a regular (or more than a 6th D) on these teams until '92 when cracked the top-4.

(this was of course in the less competitve SEL when Loob played in Färjestad)

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08-25-2011, 07:23 PM
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overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJudge View Post
Additional info:

Marcus Ragnarsson

I did some additional digging about Ragnarsson, because I remember him being better than my bio indicates.

Some international highlights to supplement his solid NHL career:

1989-1990 Elitserien Champion
1990-1991 Elitserien Champion
1991-1992 Elitserien SM-silver Medal
1994-1995 World Championship Silver Medal - Sweden
1996-1997 World Championship Silver Medal - Sweden
1997-1998 Olympic Games - Sweden
2001-2002 Olympic Games - Sweden
2003-2004 World Cup - Sweden
2008-2009 Elitserien All-Star Team
2008-2009 Elitserien Defenseman of the Year "Salming Trophy"
2008-2009 Elitserien Highest ATOI (26:12)
2008-2009 Elitserien Most Assists by Defenseman (25)
2008-2009 Elitserien Most Points by Defenseman (37)
2009-2010 Elitserien SM-silver Medal

And more support for his tough, physical play and smart break-out:
Hometown newspapers are the best sources for non-star defenders like Ragnarsson. See if you can access newspaper databases through your public library.

example.


Tony Cooper, San Francisco Chronicle, Nov 4, 2001:
Quote:
It's easy to overlook Marcus Ragnarsson. There's not a lot of flash to his game, and he's so steady and consistent that he sort of blends in with the ice. But make no mistake about it, when talking about the most valuable Sharks, Ragnarsson has to be near the top of the list.

That's why Ragnarsson's absence from the lineup is such a blow to the Sharks. He'll be out an estimated two weeks after suffering a sprained medial collateral ligament in his left knee, the result of a knee-to-knee collision with Pittsburgh's Jaromir Jagr on Wednesday night.

Ragnarsson is the Sharks' best defensive defenseman and one of the better ones in the league at this craft. Night after night, he and partner Mike Rathje are pitted against the opponent's top offensive units, so the Sharks will have to scramble blue-line pairings for the next several games.

"It's a big loss for us," defenseman Brad Stuart said. "The only guys who notice how good a job he does are his teammates. He's probably one of the most unheralded in the league at what he does, and certainly one of the best. I appreciate watching him every day."

Last season, Ragnarsson's plus- minus (plus-13) was second-best on the team. That number was made even more impressive by his taking on the Kariyas, Jagrs, Selannes and LeClairs of the league on a regular basis.

"The stability of his game, he's an underrated guy defensively," Sharks coach Darryl Sutter said when asked what would be missed most with Ragnarsson on the sideline. "At his age (29), he's become a leader on the club, too. To me, he's one of the captains on the team. Every day, he's better (in terms of health). He was better today than yesterday. Knowing him, he won't be out (the entire two weeks)."
Associated Press (Bergen Record), May 15, 2004:
Quote:
Philadelphia will take on the Tampa Bay Lightning today in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference finals without injured defenseman Marcus Ragnarsson, but Flyers' coach Ken Hitchcock shrugged off the news.

"It's the same thing that has been going on all year. We'll have to get over it and get used to it," Hitchcock said, referring to his team's injury problems.

"Ragnarsson has been tremendous," Hitchcock said. "He was arguably the best defenseman for the two teams. Now other guys have to step up."

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08-25-2011, 07:30 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Hometown newspapers are the best sources for non-star defenders like Ragnarsson. See if you can access newspaper databases through your public library.
Thanks Overpass!

That's good advice.

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