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Auction: Jordan Staal

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Old
08-26-2011, 12:38 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by vezna View Post
Kulemin + Kadri + Tor 2012 1st

value is about close
In what world is that close?

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08-26-2011, 12:40 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
Just like how Staal is some "offensive juggernaut".
Can you quote anyone saying that Staal is an offensive juggernaut or are you just making things up?

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08-26-2011, 12:53 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Can you quote anyone saying that Staal is an offensive juggernaut or are you just making things up?
Probably the latter. At this point I'd say Staal's far too entrenched as a "haha your top line can't score" guy to make him sacrifice any focus at all for point production beneficial. He's just too good at that role.

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08-26-2011, 06:38 AM
  #104
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I think Staal would be a perfect fit between Iginla and Tanguay out of "available" centers. I don't know if he'll end up being a true number 1 center but for now he's defensively responsible which will allow Iginla and Tanguay to play their game, and if all goes well he'll surprise offensively.

So maybe something along Bourque and Backlund? I realize Kennedy potted 20+ last year, but I don't really see him having that much value based on what I've seen of him so maybe he can be thrown in to help replace the hole left by Bourque, with the Flames adding whatever is fair.

Unlike other Flames fans, I don't have much faith in Backlund becoming a bonafide top 6 scoring center (not that it matters much given he'll be behind Crosby and Malkin), but I do believe his defensive game is generally underrated, he may not be a Selke nominee but the hole left with Staal leaving wont be gigantic. And Bourque provides a possible 30+ goal scoring winger for Crosby or Malkin, the biggest reason I would see Staal being moved, and they save about 1.5M in cap.

As for the Flames, they try once again to address their biggest need. If they want to continue to go for it instead of blowing it up they'll need a better first line center than a player cut from a tryout camp last year (even if Morrison was a pleasant surprise), and hoping for Backlund or trying to develop him just doesn't seem like the best idea when the core doesn't seem to have all that much time left. They'll be right against the cap and if no prospect steals a spot the lines would look something like:

Tanguay-Staal-Iginla
Glencross-Jokinen-Moss
Hagman-Langkow-Kennedy
Jackman-Stajan-Kostopoulus
Leblond
IR: Morrison

So I guess my offer would look close to:

Bourque, Backlund, 1st for Staal, Kennedy, B-prospect.


Last edited by Paper: 08-26-2011 at 06:49 AM.
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08-26-2011, 10:18 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper View Post
I think Staal would be a perfect fit between Iginla and Tanguay out of "available" centers. I don't know if he'll end up being a true number 1 center but for now he's defensively responsible which will allow Iginla and Tanguay to play their game, and if all goes well he'll surprise offensively.

So maybe something along Bourque and Backlund? I realize Kennedy potted 20+ last year, but I don't really see him having that much value based on what I've seen of him so maybe he can be thrown in to help replace the hole left by Bourque, with the Flames adding whatever is fair.

Unlike other Flames fans, I don't have much faith in Backlund becoming a bonafide top 6 scoring center (not that it matters much given he'll be behind Crosby and Malkin), but I do believe his defensive game is generally underrated, he may not be a Selke nominee but the hole left with Staal leaving wont be gigantic. And Bourque provides a possible 30+ goal scoring winger for Crosby or Malkin, the biggest reason I would see Staal being moved, and they save about 1.5M in cap.

As for the Flames, they try once again to address their biggest need. If they want to continue to go for it instead of blowing it up they'll need a better first line center than a player cut from a tryout camp last year (even if Morrison was a pleasant surprise), and hoping for Backlund or trying to develop him just doesn't seem like the best idea when the core doesn't seem to have all that much time left. They'll be right against the cap and if no prospect steals a spot the lines would look something like:

Tanguay-Staal-Iginla
Glencross-Jokinen-Moss
Hagman-Langkow-Kennedy
Jackman-Stajan-Kostopoulus
Leblond
IR: Morrison

So I guess my offer would look close to:

Bourque, Backlund, 1st for Staal, Kennedy, B-prospect.
I see where you going with this , that you have to give up good players for a big young good center... however i think we should just wait for this year to be done with the team we have and see if there will be a #1C that becomes avalible as a UFA next year with all the money we will have and lots of our bad contracts coming off the books. I know the COILER fans and CANNOT ( win a cup) fans like to laugh at our team however if the flames of the second half of the season show up this year we may have a chance to squeek into 8th spot... so for me i think we just wait until next summer and see whos out there. I like Backlund to much to give up on him and Bourque does give us great second line scoring. Just my opinion

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Old
08-26-2011, 10:57 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Can you quote anyone saying that Staal is an offensive juggernaut or are you just making things up?
My comment is more meant for the Pens fans and other fans who say Staal would get a lot more points playing top 6 minutes.

Example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsland35 View Post
just like kulemin would perform next to malkin...staal would but up better numbers then Grabovski playing on toronto's first or second line
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Well when Sid and Geno were out last year (and up to 7 other players) which resulted in the Cooke-Stall-Kennedy line to become the "1st" line instead of the 3rd line, as well as not having an off-season or training camp Staal put up a 58 point pace. That's one more point then Nik "Golden Boy" Kulemin had last year.

A lot of people are going to look pretty silly w/ their Staal comments this year.
On pace means nothing Gunner. Either he did or didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Jordan Staal is only 22 years old
6'4 and around 220lbs with room to grow
Has a couple 20+ goal seasons to his name already
Provides Selke type two-way game
Plays a physical style too... goes into corners and lays hits
Easily has the potential to put up 30-35G and 70-80PtsHas a cup to his name

I don't think people realize the value Staal has... the Pens want to play Malkin on his wing and now that both players are healthy we are going to see that... and then with the Crosby concussion... he will be given a prime time role.
Last year his main wingers were Kennedy and Kunitz and he put up a 30Pts in 42 games coming off an injury (60 point pace)

Jordan Staal's size and skill package is very rare... he totally has the ability to be a franchise center
Bolded is what I'm talking about. Easily a 70-80 point player? Based on what? Also underlined is the hypocrisy of Pens fans. "Staal would score more with Malkin on his wing". But if a Leafs fan says "Kulemin would score more on the wing of Malkin" Pens fans say "LMAO no he wouldn't". That one Habs fan doesn't count.


I could find more, but I think I've proved my point. Yeah you can laugh and be like "ha ha, Kulemin a 30 goal scorer? Lol!!!11!!" But at least Kulemin has the stats to back it up as he has scored 30 goals. When has Staal exhibited any offensive potential other than your "on pace" argument? You can't back up any claim of Staal being an offensive juggernaut and to speculate that he would score more with better linemates and more ice time is just exactly that, speculation.


Last edited by Joe Pesci: 08-26-2011 at 11:08 AM.
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Old
08-26-2011, 11:14 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
Bolded is what I'm talking about. Easily a 70-80 point player? Based on what? Also underlined is the hypocrisy of Pens fans. "Staal would score more with Malkin on his wing". But if a Leafs fan says "Kulemin would score more on the wing of Malkin" Pens fans say "LMAO no he wouldn't". That one Habs fan doesn't count.


I could find more, but I think I've proved my point. Yeah you can laugh and be like "ha ha, Kulemin a 30 goal scorer? Lol!!!11!!" But at least Kulemin has the stats to back it up as he has scored 30 goals. When has Staal exhibited any offensive potential other than your "on pace" argument? You can't back up any claim of Staal being an offensive juggernaut and to speculate that he would score more with better linemates and more ice time is just exactly that, speculation.
29G as a 18 year old
22G 49Pts as a 20 year old
21G 49Pts as a 21 year old
11G 30Pts (42GP) as a 22 year old

No your right this cup winning Selke finalist has peaked offensively...

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08-26-2011, 11:24 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
29G as a 18 year old
22G 49Pts as a 20 year old
21G 49Pts as a 21 year old
11G 30Pts (42GP) as a 22 year old

No your right this cup winning Selke finalist has peaked offensively...
Don't talk to me about how it's unfair to write off your young players. It happens to my team all the time. Can't take it? Don't dish it.

Selke finalist? That's great. To bad that's for defense, not offense. Cup winning? He was a key part but moreso for his defense. 49 points does not scream "80 point player". Yeah it was on the 3rd line, but it still is nothing but speculation that he would score more with more minutes and better linemates.

He's supposedly going to get more of a chance this year. That'll be great as we can finally see if he is that mega offensive beast just waiting to break out, or if he's nothing more than a very good defensive 3rd liner.

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08-26-2011, 11:28 AM
  #109
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If they didn't want to trade Staal when Crosby was 100% healthy there is no way they're going to trade him now.

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08-26-2011, 11:37 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BlueRanger View Post
Don't talk to me about how it's unfair to write off your young players. It happens to my team all the time. Can't take it? Don't dish it.

Selke finalist? That's great. To bad that's for defense, not offense. Cup winning? He was a key part but moreso for his defense. 49 points does not scream "80 point player". Yeah it was on the 3rd line, but it still is nothing but speculation that he would score more with more minutes and better linemates.

He's supposedly going to get more of a chance this year. That'll be great as we can finally see if he is that mega offensive beast just waiting to break out, or if he's nothing more than a very good defensive 3rd liner.
Jordan Staal has not capped off in ice time...
08-09
49Pts (2:19PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

09-10
49Pts (1:54PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

10-11
42GP 11G 30Pts (3:09PP)
Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy/Chris Kunitz were his main linemates at ES

When Jordan gets better linemates and sees 1st unit PP ice time his production will rise significantly.

And then add everything else he brings to the table and he will one of the best centers in the game.

It's a shame people only look at the numbers a players puts up and not the reason for them... if they did they would see the room for growth with ice time.

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08-26-2011, 11:40 AM
  #111
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Lars Eller + Danny Kristo + 1st for Staal

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08-26-2011, 11:42 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
29G as a 18 year old
22G 49Pts as a 20 year old
21G 49Pts as a 21 year old
11G 30Pts (42GP) as a 22 year old

No your right this cup winning Selke finalist has peaked offensively...
Showing a decline in goal scoring doesn't really make a good argument for his offensive growth.

The fact that he hasn't put up amazing offensive numbers yet is not an indication that he hasn't peaked.

I don't think Staal has peaked offensively (based on no real knowledge of the situation), but those two arguments don't support that theory.

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08-26-2011, 11:44 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Jordan Staal has not capped off in ice time...
08-09
49Pts (2:19PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

09-10
49Pts (1:54PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

10-11
42GP 11G 30Pts (3:09PP)
Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy/Chris Kunitz were his main linemates at ES

When Jordan gets better linemates and sees 1st unit PP ice time his production will rise significantly.

And then add everything else he brings to the table and he will one of the best centers in the game.

It's a shame people only look at the numbers a players puts up and not the reason for them... if they did they would see the room for growth with ice time.
Obviously when he plays with better players, his production will increase. I don't see how that's an argument for his personal play improving. Hey, put me on Crosby's wing, and I'll score 20 goals a season. It doesn't mean I'm suddenly an NHL caliber winger, it just means Crosby's good.

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08-26-2011, 11:45 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Jordan Staal has not capped off in ice time...
08-09
49Pts (2:19PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

09-10
49Pts (1:54PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

10-11
42GP 11G 30Pts (3:09PP)
Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy/Chris Kunitz were his main linemates at ES

When Jordan gets better linemates and sees 1st unit PP ice time his production will rise significantly.

And then add everything else he brings to the table and he will one of the best centers in the game.

It's a shame people only look at the numbers a players puts up and not the reason for them... if they did they would see the room for growth with ice time.
Still speculation. Look I don't really care whether or not Staal becomes a beast or not. I like the Pens so good for them if he does get this supposed amazing offense. My main point in my first post that started all this was that Pens fans were writing off Kulemin as nothing more than a flash in the pan, while simultaneously putting Staal on a pedestal for doing something he hasn't yet. While at the same time, atacking and laughing at Leafs fans and Kulemin for calling Kulemin a "30 goal scorer". Kulemin has scored 30.

All I wanted to point out was that it was hypocritical of Pens fans to write off Kulemin while proclaiming Staal to be something he isn't yet.

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08-26-2011, 11:50 AM
  #115
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Can someone explain to me why the Pens would be interested in shopping Staal? Granted, he is not a Crosby, malkin, Ovechkin, that level of player and some blow your socks off offer would of course be taken. But generally, why would the Pens want to trade them absent being overwhelmed?
  • He is not redundant on the Pens, and fills a role that may not show up on the scoreboard but that wins you cups. Jacques Lemaire likely kisses a poster of Staal that he has hanging on the wall of his bedroom before he goes to sleep at night.

    He is amazingly young for how experienced he is, and his offense should improve, and was not bad as it is now. When he hits his peak in four or five years, if given a top line role, with top line wings, and given some growth in his game that needs to occur, he could be a 30 goal scorer along with that defensive game. It is not that huge of a stretch to think he can up his game offensively to that level.

    He is very cap friendly for what he brings and will remain so

    The Pens went defensively oriented of late, and Staal is among a small list of those as good as you will find out there in providing defense from the forward position

    The old HF truism that the Pens are desperate for wings is no longer true. They are stronger at wing currently than they have been for years. And a truely elite wing would hammer the cap much more than Staal does to boot

The long and short of it is that Staal provides the kind of game that wins cups for a team, at a friendly cap hit, and likely will remain relatively reasonable in cost. The people who make all their arguments from a stat sheet may never have a clue what he brings, but GM's and hockey people know and if he ever became available the line would include every team in the NHL making an offer. The Pens have zero reasons to trade him and lots to keep him.

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08-26-2011, 11:59 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
Brian Boyle has 33 career goals, but is a "20 goal wing?"
How many did he get last year? Relegated almost entirely to 3rd/4th line?

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08-26-2011, 12:32 PM
  #117
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My comment is more meant for the Pens fans and other fans who say Staal would get a lot more points playing top 6 minutes.


On pace means nothing Gunner. Either he did or didn't.
- So Yes, you are just making things up. Saying he'll get more points in a top 6 role is not even close to saying he's an offensive juggernaut.

- On pace does not mean "nothing". In fact it can be very telling. A player getting 30 points in 42 games without an offseason or training camp, with his teams best two offensive players out almost the entire time he played is pretty telling.

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Old
08-26-2011, 12:37 PM
  #118
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Obviously when he plays with better players, his production will increase. I don't see how that's an argument for his personal play improving. Hey, put me on Crosby's wing, and I'll score 20 goals a season. It doesn't mean I'm suddenly an NHL caliber winger, it just means Crosby's good.
for the 10-11 season he may have had better linemates but he also had tougher matchups.

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08-26-2011, 12:48 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Jordan Staal has not capped off in ice time...
08-09
49Pts (2:19PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

09-10
49Pts (1:54PP per game)
Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy were his main linemates at ES

10-11
42GP 11G 30Pts (3:09PP)
Matt Cooke, Tyler Kennedy/Chris Kunitz were his main linemates at ES

When Jordan gets better linemates and sees 1st unit PP ice time his production will rise significantly.

And then add everything else he brings to the table and he will one of the best centers in the game.

It's a shame people only look at the numbers a players puts up and not the reason for them... if they did they would see the room for growth with ice time.
And who exactly is he going to beat out for 1st line powerplay time? He's not going to. That's like if Oilers fans said if only Omark got to play 1st line he'd put up 65 points. It very well could be the case. But it's not going to happen so it's irrelevant

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08-26-2011, 01:13 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
- So Yes, you are just making things up. Saying he'll get more points in a top 6 role is not even close to saying he's an offensive juggernaut.

- On pace does not mean "nothing". In fact it can be very telling. A player getting 30 points in 42 games without an offseason or training camp, with his teams best two offensive players out almost the entire time he played is pretty telling.
1. I think you missed a post. 70-80 points easily? At least let him crack 50 first.

2. Sure on pace means something now. I'm sure you were laughing at Leafs fans using that argument for Bozak last year.

This has gotten way out of hand now anyways. I don't doubt Staals production will go up playing top 6 minutes. That's not my concern. My whole point is that you and other Pens fans are being very hypocritical when discussing Staal compared to other young players. You mock Leafs fans for calling Kulemin a 30 goal scorer, then get mad when someone suggests Staals production may not go up as drastically as some Pens fans seem to think it will.


Case in point, you make a sarcastic post about Kulemin being a 30 goal score even though he has scored 30, then use the "on pace" argument to prove your point about Staal having untapped potential. I'm sure most people would hold a full season of success in higher regard than half a season of success, yet you laugh off Kulemins full season of success while with a straight face argue your point with only half a season as proof for your argument.

Sorry, but that's just homerism at it's finest.


Last edited by Joe Pesci: 08-26-2011 at 01:39 PM.
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08-26-2011, 01:36 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Oilersfan2354 View Post
And who exactly is he going to beat out for 1st line powerplay time? He's not going to. That's like if Oilers fans said if only Omark got to play 1st line he'd put up 65 points. It very well could be the case. But it's not going to happen so it's irrelevant
Why can't the first unit up front be Crosby, Malkiin and Staal?
He is good enough to get the ice time and we will see it happen.

Staal if he is healthy will get at least 60 points this season

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08-26-2011, 01:37 PM
  #122
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The funny part is there will be another "Staal to Toronto" thread within a few days time.


Last edited by Steve Holt: 08-26-2011 at 01:42 PM.
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Old
08-26-2011, 01:41 PM
  #123
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Pretty much every time Staal has played with top 6 caliber linemates, he upped his production v. what he does as a 3rd line center.

The problem is, Staal doesn't get a lot of legitimate top 6 mins. When he does, he does just fine. He's never going to be a 1st line center like Eric. He will probably be a great 2nd line center in this league who can put up 65 points an 25-30 goals a season, if given the opportunity to play in the top 6 with top 6 linemates.

People like to discount his 29 goal season, but the fact is still there...he can score. He's been a 20 goal man every single year he's been in the league, so it's not a stretch to believe that he could up those numbers if given guys who can produce at top 6 levels. He, Kunitz, and Kennedy was a very good line for the Pens this past season, and that was just a glimpse of what could happen.

What Staal needs in a linemate is someone who can carry the play, since that is not his forte. He's best at trailing the play and having everything in front of him. He undoubtedly needs a playmaker on his wing.

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08-26-2011, 02:27 PM
  #124
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I don't think it's a stretch to suggest Staal's production could go up by quite a bit if he were a team's number one option at center. His even strength production is actually similar to guys like Mike Richards, Jonathan Toews, etc. Where those guys pull away from Staal, points-wise, is in powerplay points.

2010-11 season:
Toews - 49 ESP, 25 PPP
Richards - 39 ESP, 21 PPP
Staal (prorated over 82 games) - 41 ESP, 14 PPP

2009-10 season:
Toews - 42 ESP, 22 PPP
Richards - 29 ESP, 31 PPP
Staal - 41 ESP, 5 PPP

2008-09 season:
Toews - 47 ESP, 22 PPP
Richards - 38 ESP, 33 PPP
Staal - 39 ESP, 6 PPP

The gap between Staal and the other two is mainly when it comes to powerplay production. If Staal was on the first unit of a team's PP (say, like the Leafs), I don't think it's a stretch to suggest he could rack up somewhere between 20 to 25 powerplay points, which would bump his overall production into the 60-70 point range.

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08-26-2011, 02:32 PM
  #125
ChibiPooky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest Staal's production could go up by quite a bit if he were a team's number one option at center. His even strength production is actually similar to guys like Mike Richards, Jonathan Toews, etc. Where those guys pull away from Staal, points-wise, is in powerplay points.

2010-11 season:
Toews - 49 ESP, 25 PPP
Richards - 39 ESP, 21 PPP
Staal (prorated over 82 games) - 41 ESP, 14 PPP

2009-10 season:
Toews - 42 ESP, 22 PPP
Richards - 29 ESP, 31 PPP
Staal - 41 ESP, 5 PPP

2008-09 season:
Toews - 47 ESP, 22 PPP
Richards - 38 ESP, 33 PPP
Staal - 39 ESP, 6 PPP

The gap between Staal and the other two is mainly when it comes to powerplay production. If Staal was on the first unit of a team's PP (say, like the Leafs), I don't think it's a stretch to suggest he could rack up somewhere between 20 to 25 powerplay points, which would bump his overall production into the 60-70 point range.
There's still a difference between the player actually developing and just getting better/more minutes.

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