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CBJ - Montreal

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Old
08-25-2011, 11:41 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Malreg View Post
Switch Kristo for another prospect not named Leblanc, Tinordi, or Beaulieu and I'd be ok with it. Maybe Gallagher?

Kristo and Leblanc are pretty much our only decent forward prospects, we need them.

Kostitsyn
Weber
Gallagher
3rd round pick.
Kristo is just a clone of every other forward prospect we have who turned out a little better.

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08-25-2011, 11:45 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Sakus Yo Daddy View Post
Fair enough.

I included Kostitsyn because he'd be a decent replacement for RJ in the top 6 production wise.

Weber's in there because he's NHL ready, and has a solid offensive upside. Columbus has been struggling for awhile now on the PP, so he'd be at worst a slight upgrade over Anton Stralman (lolol).
Weber is NHL ready but not what Columbus needs. Defense is already set for better or more likely worse. It needs a Scott Hannan, not a Yannick Weber.

Kostitsyn puts up decent numbers for top six I'm aware, but lacks intangibles. Which is the obvious reason why the extra needs to be added.

Grant Clitsome had some 20 points in 30 games quarterbacking Columbus PP at the end of the year, not to mention everyones favorite overpaid Wiz is back there too. Stralman sucked, I'm glad we can both agree.

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Old
08-25-2011, 11:45 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakus Yo Daddy View Post
Fair enough.

I included Kostitsyn because he'd be a decent replacement for RJ in the top 6 production wise.

Weber's in there because he's NHL ready, and has a solid offensive upside. Columbus has been struggling for awhile now on the PP, so he'd be at worst a slight upgrade over Anton Stralman (lolol).
That's why they signed Wisniewski this off season

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Old
08-25-2011, 12:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
That's why they signed Wisniewski this off season
Yeah obviously he's going to QB their 1st line PP, but Weber would be a solid option for the 2nd wave.

That being said, it's been made apparent that Clitsome is the future. All hail overlord Clitsome.

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08-25-2011, 12:07 PM
  #30
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ummm.... No No NO from the Habs.

AK + 2nd tier prospect for RJ.

That's all I would give.

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08-25-2011, 12:10 PM
  #31
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Yeah it's the kind of deal I think could be re-visited at deadline in terms of value I think it's close to fair but for the reasons already mentioned CBJ doesn't pull the trigger.

Say at deadline CBJ was plagued with injuries and won't be making the playoffs, then Umberger has been playing well and they can't get him to re-sign/extend... I think minds will change. Also bare in mind we'll know much more about Kristo's development by then and especially Weber's.

Weber is a guy I could see becoming a #4d with some great offensive flair. He's only steadily improved defensively. He's thrown in every habs proposal not because he sucks but because he's an expendable asset that could be useful to other teams. I'd say worst possible scenario he's a #6d who can play the PP and that's if his defensive game no longer keeps improving.

He isn't the biggest guy and you won't see him lay anyone out with a hit but he's got a booming shot from the point, is an RD and could be very useful to a team. Kristo is also a prospect who many habs fans feel will pan out as a 3rd line or 2nd line winger, maybe a 2.5 guy (one who can step up to 2nd when needed but is better off playing 3rd line minutes)

That being said of course we don't have a crystal ball but reason he used those players is because they're expendable (have several similar players in the system) but also have value and look to be NHL players not a 4th liner or a bust.

It's the type of deal that could make a lot more sense at deadline once we know more about how well these two guys are developing.

Andrei for RJ is just a straight up cancel out in terms of them both being UFA but since Montreal clearly gets the better more consistent player with intangibles I do believe any variation of a high pick/prospect and a mid-range player/prospect would be what it would take. I definitely agree with people saying Montreal has to give to get and that this isn't the kind of deal CBJ would currently be looking for.

But like I mentioned above if CBJ has a bad year and their GM knows he won't be re-signing, this is actually a pretty fair package imo. Swap UFA's but get a guy who could at least put up similar production and re-sign, get some RFA talent while you're at it and one of the guys is ready to play a #6d role right away at least.

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Old
08-25-2011, 01:13 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Y
It's the type of deal that could make a lot more sense at deadline once we know more about how well these two guys are developing.
Its true we cant be entirely certain, but looking forward, around the trade deadline, Columbus will have this without Umberger around deadline.

Nash - Carter - Prospal
Vermette - Brassard - Huselius

This is not including Ryan Johansen, or Matthew Calvert who scored 12 goals in limited time last year with some top six duty. I don't think another top six is in the cards unless its a versatile one. The fact that our defense shutdown pairing is Methot - Martinek is a much bigger concern.

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Old
08-25-2011, 01:39 PM
  #33
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Big over payment as other have said. He does not bring enough to the team to make them move forward to give up that much of the present and the potential future.

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Old
08-25-2011, 02:23 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ACES11 View Post
Just because AK was a former 1st rounder, doesn't mean the Habs would get a 1st for him. Especially since he's 26, and never hit 55 points. (Hasn't hit 50 in 3 seasons). It isn't like he is overly physical or is great defensively. He's a UFA next season as well.

Though I think the Habs are giving up too many pieces in the original proposal. Kristo + a 2nd for Umberger seems fair if the Jackets were planning on moving him. Though I doubt they are.
Brouwer fetched a 1st.. I think AK can fetch one.

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Old
08-25-2011, 02:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jonnybullit4390 View Post
I would counter with

Ak + Weber vs umberger
Or
Ak + kristo vs umberger

Not more then That

In m'y opinion i would keep Ak and try to trade for a wr to play with him and Eller on The third Line ... Now you would have 3 scoring line
Which Wide Receiver would you want? I think Andre Johnson is a good bet for speed and toughness to help us out... (I am SOOOOO sorry, but I could NOT resist).

I would consider AK + either Weber or Kristo. I would absolutely laugh at what the OP offered. Umberger is NOT that much better than AK.

Actually, if you compare their first 4 years, AK has already done better than Umberger and still has the time to develop to the stage Umberger is currently at...and surpass it.

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Old
08-25-2011, 02:58 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakus Yo Daddy View Post
Montreal:
Yannick Weber
Andrei Kostitsyn
Danny Kristo
2012 3rd

Columbus:
R.J. Umberger

Montreal gains another top 6 forward with size and scoring ability.

Columbus gets a young D-man who can run the 2nd wave of a power play, a decent top 6 forward in Kostitsyn who can step in and more or less replace Umberger's production, and a good looking forward prospect.

I know that Umberger says he's looking to resign in CBJ long term, but how's the value look?
You forgot Subban and Price

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Old
08-25-2011, 03:55 PM
  #37
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Hopefully y'all see by the lack of CBJ fans response on here that nothing good is coming of this offer. At some point people will realize how significant Umberger is to Columbus. There is certainly value in the Habs players offered but not for what Columbus would be looking for when it comes to Umberger.

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08-25-2011, 04:48 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Its true we cant be entirely certain, but looking forward, around the trade deadline, Columbus will have this without Umberger around deadline.

Nash - Carter - Prospal
Vermette - Brassard - Huselius

This is not including Ryan Johansen, or Matthew Calvert who scored 12 goals in limited time last year with some top six duty. I don't think another top six is in the cards unless its a versatile one. The fact that our defense shutdown pairing is Methot - Martinek is a much bigger concern.
True enough. I think it would be CBJ banking on the fact that Andrei could potentially have closer to elite level production with a fresh start. Obviously I know a lot of non-habs fans see all the bashing on HF and think the guy sucks. For his faults he does have certain intangibles. He hits and can score goals, he has some size to go with. Obviously I'd much rather Umberger and this coming from somebody who is an Andrei Kostitsyn fan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
Hopefully y'all see by the lack of CBJ fans response on here that nothing good is coming of this offer. At some point people will realize how significant Umberger is to Columbus. There is certainly value in the Habs players offered but not for what Columbus would be looking for when it comes to Umberger.
Not at all disagreeing with this statement but as a GM once deadline is approaching and there's no good news on Umberger deal you can either lose him for nothing a la Richards or you can trade him for the best package available.

This is one of the first packages for a player I've seen from a habs fan where if the above happened imo it would be a fairly competitive deal. I understand CBJ would want more but do you think a team would offer more is the question? I think it would be close.

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Old
08-25-2011, 04:56 PM
  #39
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Columbus is in a win now mode so this proposal doesn't really make sense for them imo.

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Old
08-25-2011, 05:42 PM
  #40
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A.K - Weber

vs

Brassard-Boll

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Old
08-25-2011, 07:48 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
So basically Montreal trades a bunch of players they are comfortable getting rid of, for a Columbus player that there team is not comfortable getting rid of.

I have no problem shopping RJ Umberger, in fact I have advocated that for legit defensive help but a risky russian and hopes? Forget it.

Its fair or even overpayment an NHL11 sense, but too much quantity of mediocre assets.
when the **** was montreal 'comfortable' giving up two potentially good prospects in kristo and weber and a 20-25 goal scorer? umberger is 3 years older and has 24 more goals total than kostitsyn

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Old
08-25-2011, 08:02 PM
  #42
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Looking forward to next season, when Kostitsyn outscores Umberger.

Three years ago, Umberger wasn't that much of a scoring threat neither.

And Kostitsyn has more raw talent.

Also worth mentioning, he had more hits than Umberger last year. (140 vs 114)

So Umberger is better defensively, I don't care much. We scored the 8th lesser amount of goals (CBJ 7th, good job) last year so I'd take my chance with the skilled guy on a contract year.

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Old
08-25-2011, 08:20 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
when the **** was montreal 'comfortable' giving up two potentially good prospects in kristo and weber and a 20-25 goal scorer? umberger is 3 years older and has 24 more goals total than kostitsyn
Thank you for that. However, to be fair, Umberger has 36 more goals in 148 more games, not 24 more goals.

I have been following this thread and am astonished by what I have read. AK for Umberger is almost even value. Adding a top quality defensive prospect like Weber to AK in order to get Umberger IS overpayment. Adding two other pieces is excessive.

Umberger is a very good player who averages 0.57 ppg. AK is a very good player who averages 0.57 ppg. Umberger averages 0.25 goals per game while AK averages 0.26 goals per game. Andrei had 366 hits in the last 3 years, while Umberger had 313 hits in the last 3 years while playing 32 MORE games. Both are 20+ goal scorers when they play full seasons.

Umberger has a coach who knows how to use him. AK is stuck with Martin who has no clue how to use fast skill players with offensive flair. Umberger gets top 6 minutes, while AK gets shifted from lines 1-4, with far too much time playing on the 3rd because of Martin and his "defence above all" approach on a team designed to be more offensively minded.

I know AK has shown himself to be inconsistent, but that is also partially due to frustration with being an offensively gifted player mired in a defensive system that hampers him. AK would be a very good player for Columbus, even better than he is in Montreal.

Now, I know Umberger is loved in Columbus, and that counts for something. That is why a potential top 4 defenceman with offensive flair is being added to the deal. The third is not that big a deal, and could be added, but to then put Kristo, considered Montreal's top forward prospect not already playing for the big team or injured into the deal is excessive.

I know there are Habs fans who hate AK and want him gone for all the wrong reasons. I know there are a lot of fans of other teams who have no clue who AK is unless they go looking at stats pages. What I would like to point out to those people is that AK is not a cancer or problem for our team. He is a strong competitor who plays hard, hits, can score, and wants to win. He will speak out when he doesn't think he is being treated fairly, but has always been professional and plays, even when unhappy. Just because he said something to the Russian news doesn't mean he wants out, especially when what he said was already well known by knowledgeable fans who have read him saying things like that in the past.

Do I want to trade AK? Only for an appropriate return. Do we NEED to trade AK? No. Would I like Umberger? Yes. He is a very good player who would help our team. Is he necessary to the point where we offer AK, Weber, Kristo AND a 3rd? No. AK+ for Umberger? Yes, because Columbus doesn't need or want to move Umberger at this point in time. AK +++ for Umberger? Not the "+++" offered in this thread.

Keep in mind, anyone thinking Umberger is going to get a 20+ goal scorer, two of an organization's top prospects AND a 3rd round pick for a soon to be UFA who is basically a 20+ goal scorer is out of their minds.

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08-25-2011, 08:49 PM
  #44
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when the **** was montreal 'comfortable' giving up two potentially good prospects in kristo and weber and a 20-25 goal scorer? umberger is 3 years older and has 24 more goals total than kostitsyn
Maybe you should read these boards, Kostitsyn and Weber are brought up a ton on here. And those prospects are ok, they arent that good, you'd have to be a hab homer to think that.

The fact of the matter is, Columbus have four offensive defenceman on their squad who are as capable as Weber.

Kostitsyn is an overall downgrade on Umberger. End of story. Throw as many smaller assets into it as you want. It doesnt matter.

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08-25-2011, 08:51 PM
  #45
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Looking forward to next season, when Kostitsyn outscores Umberger.
I really hope he does, and it lowers Umbergers value for an extension. Best case scenario, for Columbus in my opinion.

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08-25-2011, 08:55 PM
  #46
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Quantity does not equal quality

RJ is by far the best player in the deal

Weber and Kristo havent shown they are NHL caliber regulars and AK, though Superbly talented is a malcontent, little reason for columbus to consider this. you dont trade potential captain material for maybe's

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08-25-2011, 09:18 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post

I have been following this thread and am astonished by what I have read. AK for Umberger is almost even value. Adding a top quality defensive prospect like Weber to AK in order to get Umberger IS overpayment. .
i have only two problems with this post

AK for Umberger is almost even value that is as clueless a statement as i have ever read, RJ is a total team player, the type who would go through a wall for his team, as we saw last week AK is not like that, andrei's middle name has always been "me"

Adding a top quality defensive prospect like Weber since when was weber a top quality defensive prospect?

even hockeys future rated him your 4th best prospect and the canadiens are seen as having one of the weakest group of prospects in the nhl, and they had this to say about his defensive skills:

"There are areas for Weber's game to grow, foremost among them is physical strength, which will have to come over time. Especially at the NHL level, Weber he has room to improve defensively"

Weber has some ability offensively, but by no means is he a top quality defensive prospect

Size wize Weber will always have issues at the point of attack unless he gets much stronger

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08-25-2011, 09:33 PM
  #48
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i have only two problems with this post

AK for Umberger is almost even value that is as clueless a statement as i have ever read, RJ is a total team player, the type who would go through a wall for his team, as we saw last week AK is not like that, andrei's middle name has always been "me"
Adding a top quality defensive prospect like Weber since when was weber a top quality defensive prospect?

even hockeys future rated him your 4th best prospect and the canadiens are seen as having one of the weakest group of prospects in the nhl, and they had this to say about his defensive skills:

"There are areas for Weber's game to grow, foremost among them is physical strength, which will have to come over time. Especially at the NHL level, Weber he has room to improve defensively"

Weber has some ability offensively, but by no means is he a top quality defensive prospect

Size wize Weber will always have issues at the point of attack unless he gets much stronger


This guy got no clue....

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08-25-2011, 10:56 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Monaco88 View Post
This guy got no clue....
so says a montreal Homer, Selfishness has always been a complaint about the Kostitsyns, ask their former best friend Mikhail Grabovski

seems to me youre the one with no clue, Sergei had the rap first, and Andrei showed his true colors last week, he should be honored to play for the Rouge, Bleu et Blanc,

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08-26-2011, 12:12 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
i have only two problems with this post

AK for Umberger is almost even value that is as clueless a statement as i have ever read, RJ is a total team player, the type who would go through a wall for his team, as we saw last week AK is not like that, andrei's middle name has always been "me"

Adding a top quality defensive prospect like Weber since when was weber a top quality defensive prospect?

even hockeys future rated him your 4th best prospect and the canadiens are seen as having one of the weakest group of prospects in the nhl, and they had this to say about his defensive skills:

"There are areas for Weber's game to grow, foremost among them is physical strength, which will have to come over time. Especially at the NHL level, Weber he has room to improve defensively"

Weber has some ability offensively, but by no means is he a top quality defensive prospect

Size wize Weber will always have issues at the point of attack unless he gets much stronger
1--Watch more hockey than only your team, and try not to believe HFBoards B.S. Andrei Kostitsyn has complained about being on the 3rd line because he believes he is a top 6 player. He has never held out of camp, or refused to report, or caused any other problems. AK didn't do anything wrong in stating the truth of how things are between him and Martin. AK is a team player who plays where he is placed and does well. Look at his 20 goals while playing mostly 3rd line minutes last season. You obviously know nothing about AK and should learn a bit more about a player before trying to make idiotic statements like "AK for Umberger is almost even value[/B] that is as clueless a statement as i have ever read" and then stupidly trash AK for not being a team player when he always has been.

You know, I think it would say a lot more about AK as a player if he DIDN'T complain about being on the 3rd line.

2--Weber is a defenceman, therefore he is a defensive prospect. I never said he was a defensive defenceman, but I understand where the confusion came from. Weber is an offensive minded defenceman who will be a top 4 defenceman in the league. Being a defenceman doesn't mean you are always great defensively. Go watch Wisniewski, MAB, Green, and many others around the league. Weber is a defenceman, but he is more offensive minded. That does not mean he isn't a defensive prospect, since he isn't a forward.

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