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Old
08-26-2011, 12:21 AM
  #51
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
so says a montreal Homer, Selfishness has always been a complaint about the Kostitsyns, ask their former best friend Mikhail Grabovski

seems to me youre the one with no clue, Sergei had the rap first, and Andrei showed his true colors last week, he should be honored to play for the Rouge, Bleu et Blanc,
Andrei stated that he and the coach don't see eye-to-eye on where to play him. He didn't make any personal attacks towards Martin, the Habs organization or anyone else. He said he is not happy on the 3rd line. That is far better than him saying he is happy to be on the 3rd line since he should be a top 6 player.

Sergei was the only Kostitsyn to be a problem in Montreal, not Andrei.

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08-26-2011, 12:31 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
1--Watch more hockey than only your team, and try not to believe HFBoards B.S. Andrei Kostitsyn has complained about being on the 3rd line because he believes he is a top 6 player. He has never held out of camp, or refused to report, or caused any other problems. AK didn't do anything wrong in stating the truth of how things are between him and Martin. AK is a team player who plays where he is placed and does well. Look at his 20 goals while playing mostly 3rd line minutes last season. You obviously know nothing about AK and should learn a bit more about a player before trying to make idiotic statements like "AK for Umberger is almost even value[/B] that is as clueless a statement as i have ever read" and then stupidly trash AK for not being a team player when he always has been.

You know, I think it would say a lot more about AK as a player if he DIDN'T complain about being on the 3rd line.

2--Weber is a defenceman, therefore he is a defensive prospect. I never said he was a defensive defenceman, but I understand where the confusion came from. Weber is an offensive minded defenceman who will be a top 4 defenceman in the league. Being a defenceman doesn't mean you are always great defensively. Go watch Wisniewski, MAB, Green, and many others around the league. Weber is a defenceman, but he is more offensive minded. That does not mean he isn't a defensive prospect, since he isn't a forward.
i have to disagree on point one, AK is immensely talented, i wont deny that, but you have to admit his chief issue with Martin is that Martin rides on him like a dog, There is a reason for that , AK for all his obvious talent tends to lose focus and the coach obviously feels the carrot and the stick approach is best. its why Martin has moved him from lines in the past and he'll do it again until AK realizes top line and top 6 time is earned, not an inalienable right.

thats what I mean when i say AK is all about "me" he sees it as someone picking on him and not as constructive criticism. He plays end to end more than he ever did now, and thats strictly because of Martin,

AK really needs to see that Martin is trying to help him instead of picking on him and he'd be a 30-40 goal scorer, but until he stops feeling persecuted he'll hold himself back

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08-26-2011, 01:31 AM
  #53
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
i have to disagree on point one, AK is immensely talented, i wont deny that, but you have to admit his chief issue with Martin is that Martin rides on him like a dog, There is a reason for that , AK for all his obvious talent tends to lose focus and the coach obviously feels the carrot and the stick approach is best. its why Martin has moved him from lines in the past and he'll do it again until AK realizes top line and top 6 time is earned, not an inalienable right.

thats what I mean when i say AK is all about "me" he sees it as someone picking on him and not as constructive criticism. He plays end to end more than he ever did now, and thats strictly because of Martin,

AK really needs to see that Martin is trying to help him instead of picking on him and he'd be a 30-40 goal scorer, but until he stops feeling persecuted he'll hold himself back
I see what you are saying. The only part I disagree with involves Martin. If Martin were trying to help AK or any other member of our team, he would change his defence first system and implement a more attack oriented one that would play to the strengths of guys like AK, Gionta, and Cammy. Instead of playing a system that would play TO the strengths of his players, Martin is doggedly determined to crush the players into his system, no matter the cost. Martin's system is what is keeping players like AK, Gionta, and Cammy from potting 30-40 goals each.

Yes, AK has become far better defensively, but that may well be in spite of Martin and more due to AK maturing over time.

Sigh...I wish we would have fired Martin and brought Boucher in to coach the Habs! He would have played to this team's strengths far better than Martin. Unfortunately it seems like Martin is going to hold the job until Roy is ready to coach at the NHL level...

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08-26-2011, 02:31 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I see what you are saying. The only part I disagree with involves Martin. If Martin were trying to help AK or any other member of our team, he would change his defence first system and implement a more attack oriented one that would play to the strengths of guys like AK, Gionta, and Cammy. Instead of playing a system that would play TO the strengths of his players, Martin is doggedly determined to crush the players into his system, no matter the cost. Martin's system is what is keeping players like AK, Gionta, and Cammy from potting 30-40 goals each.

Yes, AK has become far better defensively, but that may well be in spite of Martin and more due to AK maturing over time.

Sigh...I wish we would have fired Martin and brought Boucher in to coach the Habs! He would have played to this team's strengths far better than Martin. Unfortunately it seems like Martin is going to hold the job until Roy is ready to coach at the NHL level...
some coaches only know one way to coach, They believe their way is the only way

I once had a boss like that, i was 23 and i felt like he was persecuting me and even though i was working as hard as i could i was getting nowhere, wasnt respected, and finally i was so frustrated i wanted to quit, so i went in his office and did so, he saw how upset i was and he asked me to try for a week to do it his way, just really try, so i decided i would. funny thing was we both learned. i found out some of his ways worked better, he learned that i put pressure on myself and him adding to it was not good in fact it made me try and do too much, so we both adjusted and did great after that. he later promoted me twice into his job when he moved up

I think AK and Martin are in the same situation. sometimes all you need to do is be willing to see you both want the same thing and not let pride stand in the way.


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08-26-2011, 07:46 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by patr76 View Post
A.K - Weber

vs

Brassard-Boll
Was coming here to post that, that's a trade that I would do in a second. Umberger would look damn good with Eller and Desharnais, not to mention he's another big body the Habs could use if one of Cole/Pacioretty goes down.

As for Boll, he's exactly the type of 4th liner the Habs could use, instant fan favorite here in Montreal.

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08-26-2011, 08:37 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Do I want to trade AK? Only for an appropriate return. Do we NEED to trade AK? No. Would I like Umberger? Yes. He is a very good player who would help our team. Is he necessary to the point where we offer AK, Weber, Kristo AND a 3rd? No. AK+ for Umberger? Yes, because Columbus doesn't need or want to move Umberger at this point in time. AK +++ for Umberger? Not the "+++" offered in this thread.

Keep in mind, anyone thinking Umberger is going to get a 20+ goal scorer, two of an organization's top prospects AND a 3rd round pick for a soon to be UFA who is basically a 20+ goal scorer is out of their minds.
In the proposals I was going on about it was more-so: AK + Weber + 3rd, AK + Weber + Kristo (worst possible one), AK + Kristo + 3rd. I believe I named a few ideas. I wouldn't want to do AK + Kristo + Weber but I would do AK + Kristo/Weber(one of) + 3rd.

Is it overpayment? Sure is. But I think Umberger would be a better fit for us and buy into the system more. Like I said though I <3 Andrei, Weber and Kristo. I'd probably try to keep Weber honestly and go with Andrei + Kristo + 3rd. He is our best forward prospect but he's a couple years away. Andrei is UFA and so is Umberger, I would want to sign Umberger immediately. If habs fans wanted us to get Brooks Laich for 6 million surely they won't mind paying Umberger more than he's worth.

Also Umberger is actually more of a 25 goal scorer than a 20 goal scorer. He's also been healthy more often than not compared to Andrei.

I think it's a trade that at deadline could work for both teams. Weber would be a tough pill to swallow. Kristo could potentially be a 2nd line winger but I think he'll be more of a 3rd line winger who can step up and be a 2nd liner. He seems like he'll be one of those clutch 3rd liners who steps up when needed. Still he hasn't played in the AHL yet so I'd be more comfortable giving him away than Weber a guy who I think is destined to be a #4 offensive defenseman. Andrei + Kristo + 3rd works for me. Both teams get a guy they could potentially re-sign, Andrei will come cheaper and likely increase production on CBJ. Umberger will likely get overpaid this UFA period maybe after grabbing Wiz for so much CBJ would rather the slight downgrade but similar production out of AK for less money.

Umberger for sure is the kind of player any team going for a run would love to get at deadline.

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08-26-2011, 08:44 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
i have only two problems with this post

AK for Umberger is almost even value that is as clueless a statement as i have ever read, RJ is a total team player, the type who would go through a wall for his team, as we saw last week AK is not like that, andrei's middle name has always been "me"

Adding a top quality defensive prospect like Weber since when was weber a top quality defensive prospect?

even hockeys future rated him your 4th best prospect and the canadiens are seen as having one of the weakest group of prospects in the nhl, and they had this to say about his defensive skills:

"There are areas for Weber's game to grow, foremost among them is physical strength, which will have to come over time. Especially at the NHL level, Weber he has room to improve defensively"

Weber has some ability offensively, but by no means is he a top quality defensive prospect

Size wize Weber will always have issues at the point of attack unless he gets much stronger
I love how you call somebody out for a clueless statement but then reference HockeysFuture as a legitimate source for how the guy plays when they're often left never updated for years at a time and the guy has already shown he's good enough defensively to at least be a #6d and his offense we all have seen it. Most of his points came in the 2nd half of the season once he had adjusted to the NHL and learned the defensive side of the game.

If he doesn't improve his defense anymore than he has (his development curve skyrocketed on defense since joining us) he'll still be a good #6d who can step up on the power play and shoot from the right side. If he steps up his defensive game even more this year he could be a #4. It remains to be seen but he's definitely a solid prospect. Draft order or what HF said about the guy prior to the season he played in the NHL isn't relevant really.

I'm not saying HF is the worst source in the world for prospects but they don't update that often and most of the crap on rookies is stuff they said prior to them playing in the NHL. Kind of pointless really as pre-NHL is meaningless. Anyways think what you want but Weber is a good prospect. Not like he was a 6th round pick either he was still drafted relatively high. There's been nothing to support your claim about him having watched him play. He seems like the real deal.

Weber should be a lock for at least 20pts in his second season and given that he was never considered to be a high end pick in his draft class that's just fine for his development. If you look him up his development is actually right on track. People think he'll be the next Mark Streit and with good reason they play a similar game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
some coaches only know one way to coach, They believe their way is the only way

I once had a boss like that, i was 23 and i felt like he was persecuting me and even though i was working as hard as i could i was getting nowhere, wasnt respected, and finally i was so frustrated i wanted to quit, so i went in his office and did so, he saw how upset i was and he asked me to try for a week to do it his way, just really try, so i decided i would. funny thing was we both learned. i found out some of his ways worked better, he learned that i put pressure on myself and him adding to it was not good in fact it made me try and do too much, so we both adjusted and did great after that. he later promoted me twice into his job when he moved up

I think AK and Martin are in the same situation. sometimes all you need to do is be willing to see you both want the same thing and not let pride stand in the way.
Hence communication is key... ugh unfortunately from what I've heard this isn't one of JM's feats.


Last edited by neofury*: 08-26-2011 at 08:52 AM.
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08-26-2011, 01:08 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I love how you call somebody out for a clueless statement but then reference HockeysFuture as a legitimate source for how the guy plays when they're often left never updated for years at a time and the guy has already shown he's good enough defensively to at least be a #6d and his offense we all have seen it. Most of his points came in the 2nd half of the season once he had adjusted to the NHL and learned the defensive side of the game.

If he doesn't improve his defense anymore than he has (his development curve skyrocketed on defense since joining us) he'll still be a good #6d who can step up on the power play and shoot from the right side. If he steps up his defensive game even more this year he could be a #4. It remains to be seen but he's definitely a solid prospect. Draft order or what HF said about the guy prior to the season he played in the NHL isn't relevant really..
i think you missed my point its the top quality defensive propect part i found fault with, even you have said:

" If he steps up his defensive game even more this year he could be a #4."

to me a guy who needs to work on his game defensively to be a #4, is not a top quality defensive prospect. work on it to be a #1 maybe a #2, that is top quality,

Weber in my view will always be challenged at the point of attack on defense strictly because of his body type. while he may one day be a number 4 it will be his offensive skills, not his defensive acumen that will carry him.

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08-26-2011, 04:41 PM
  #59
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I really hope he does, and it lowers Umbergers value for an extension. Best case scenario, for Columbus in my opinion.
In fact, both guys should have good seasons and I highly doubt Umberger's value is lowered by a great AK season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
i think you missed my point its the top quality defensive propect part i found fault with, even you have said:

" If he steps up his defensive game even more this year he could be a #4."

to me a guy who needs to work on his game defensively to be a #4, is not a top quality defensive prospect. work on it to be a #1 maybe a #2, that is top quality,

Weber in my view will always be challenged at the point of attack on defense strictly because of his body type. while he may one day be a number 4 it will be his offensive skills, not his defensive acumen that will carry him.
Being a defenseman makes you a defensive prospect, no matter how you slice it.

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08-26-2011, 05:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
so says a montreal Homer, Selfishness has always been a complaint about the Kostitsyns, ask their former best friend Mikhail Grabovski

seems to me youre the one with no clue, Sergei had the rap first, and Andrei showed his true colors last week, he should be honored to play for the Rouge, Bleu et Blanc,
That same Sergei who has established himself as one of Nashville's most important forwards? Well, to be fair, I guess he was playing for Trotz, who isn't known for having his forwards pay attention to defense or grit or anything like that

Clearly the problem didn't rest with Martin, eh?

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08-26-2011, 06:01 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by KILLger View Post
In fact, both guys should have good seasons and I highly doubt Umberger's value is lowered by a great AK season.



Being a defenseman makes you a defensive prospect, no matter how you slice it.
THANK YOU!!!!! Exactly my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
i think you missed my point its the top quality defensive propect part i found fault with, even you have said:

" If he steps up his defensive game even more this year he could be a #4."

to me a guy who needs to work on his game defensively to be a #4, is not a top quality defensive prospect. work on it to be a #1 maybe a #2, that is top quality,

Weber in my view will always be challenged at the point of attack on defense strictly because of his body type. while he may one day be a number 4 it will be his offensive skills, not his defensive acumen that will carry him.
Weber is a DEFENSIVE prospect because he is a DEFENCEMAN! I swear HFBoards makes my head explode with the misunderstandings I see here. I never stated that Weber was a defensive defenceman, I said he was a defensive prospect, and a good one. Unless you consider offensive defencemen to be forwards, which makes no sense.

By the way, Weber could easily develop into a better defensive defenceman with some time and training on the defensive side of his game the way Mark Streit did. Defencemen take longer to mature and hit their stride at the NHL level, as a rule. Also, a very good offensive defenceman, like Green (no I am not saying Weber is at Green's stature) can still be not only a #4 defenceman, but a #1 defenceman. What will be necessary is to PAIR him with a more defensive type of defenceman on the other side of the ice.

So, as I have stated, Weber is a very good DEFENSIVE prospect with top 4 potential in regards to the position of defenceman at the NHL level.


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 08-26-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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08-26-2011, 08:53 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger View Post
In fact, both guys should have good seasons and I highly doubt Umberger's value is lowered by a great AK season.



Being a defenseman makes you a defensive prospect, no matter how you slice it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
THANK YOU!!!!! Exactly my point.



Weber is a DEFENSIVE prospect because he is a DEFENCEMAN! I swear HFBoards makes my head explode with the misunderstandings I see here. I never stated that Weber was a defensive defenceman, I said he was a defensive prospect, and a good one. Unless you consider offensive defencemen to be forwards, which makes no sense.

By the way, Weber could easily develop into a better defensive defenceman with some time and training on the defensive side of his game the way Mark Streit did. Defencemen take longer to mature and hit their stride at the NHL level, as a rule. Also, a very good offensive defenceman, like Green (no I am not saying Weber is at Green's stature) can still be not only a #4 defenceman, but a #1 defenceman. What will be necessary is to PAIR him with a more defensive type of defenceman on the other side of the ice.

So, as I have stated, Weber is a very good DEFENSIVE prospect with top 4 potential in regards to the position of defenceman at the NHL level.
I think you both missed a couple of posters' point; Columbus has a bevy of offensive defensemen prospects: Moore, Savard, Clitsome, Holden, Goloubef, Will Weber and more. What Columbus needs is a shut down defenseman. Yannick Weber is not a shut down guy. Columbus is also not looking for a winger like AK 46. hey currently have Nash, Prospal, Umberger, Huselius, Vermette and Calvert as top 6 wings with a lot of strong wing talent on the way as well.

To get Umberger (or Brassard), you have to offer what Columbus needs, and that is not a 2nd line winger or a 2nd pairing offensive defence prospect.

Think about it this way, would the Habs give up a lot for Savard, a very good offensive-defense prospect? Of course not, it's not an area of need in Montreal.

Columbus needs a couple of shut down defenders.

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08-26-2011, 11:07 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
I think you both missed a couple of posters' point; Columbus has a bevy of offensive defensemen prospects: Moore, Savard, Clitsome, Holden, Goloubef, Will Weber and more. What Columbus needs is a shut down defenseman. Yannick Weber is not a shut down guy. Columbus is also not looking for a winger like AK 46. hey currently have Nash, Prospal, Umberger, Huselius, Vermette and Calvert as top 6 wings with a lot of strong wing talent on the way as well.

To get Umberger (or Brassard), you have to offer what Columbus needs, and that is not a 2nd line winger or a 2nd pairing offensive defence prospect.

Think about it this way, would the Habs give up a lot for Savard, a very good offensive-defense prospect? Of course not, it's not an area of need in Montreal.

Columbus needs a couple of shut down defenders.
No, we were simply explaining something to a specific poster in regards to a misunderstanding about what was meant by "defensive prospect".

Furthermore, I was never commenting on whether this deal met Columbus' needs, I was commenting upon the actual offer and value within it.

You are correct, though. If Ak and Weber do not meet any of Columbus' needs, the trade would never happen.

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08-27-2011, 12:25 AM
  #64
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For a pending UFA who isn't likely to fit in the Habs cap plans moving forward?

Weber is as close to an untouchable as Price, Subban, Eller, and Pacioretty (in that order) to me. 2 years at 850K for a homegrown developed player who could very well have a huge offensive outburst soon here is fantastic for the habs. I think he's going to be just as good as Mark Streit, his offensive capabilities are amazing. I'd love to see a Yemelin-Weber pairing in a year or two, or maybe even this year.

Huge pass from the habs. And I like Bergler a lot.

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08-27-2011, 08:27 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
I think you both missed a couple of posters' point; Columbus has a bevy of offensive defensemen prospects: Moore, Savard, Clitsome, Holden, Goloubef, Will Weber and more. What Columbus needs is a shut down defenseman. Yannick Weber is not a shut down guy. Columbus is also not looking for a winger like AK 46. hey currently have Nash, Prospal, Umberger, Huselius, Vermette and Calvert as top 6 wings with a lot of strong wing talent on the way as well.

To get Umberger (or Brassard), you have to offer what Columbus needs, and that is not a 2nd line winger or a 2nd pairing offensive defence prospect.

Think about it this way, would the Habs give up a lot for Savard, a very good offensive-defense prospect? Of course not, it's not an area of need in Montreal.

Columbus needs a couple of shut down defenders.
I don't want this deal to happen anyway. No go for Columbus AND Montreal. For the very reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread.

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08-27-2011, 12:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
No, we were simply explaining something to a specific poster in regards to a misunderstanding about what was meant by "defensive prospect".

Furthermore, I was never commenting on whether this deal met Columbus' needs, I was commenting upon the actual offer and value within it.

You are correct, though. If Ak and Weber do not meet any of Columbus' needs, the trade would never happen.
no it was you who didnt understand, Columbus fans had said they didnt need an offensive defenseman

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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Weber is NHL ready but not what Columbus needs. Defense is already set for better or more likely worse. It needs a Scott Hannan, not a Yannick Weber.

everyones favorite overpaid Wiz is back there too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post

The fact of the matter is, Columbus have four offensive defenceman on their squad who are as capable as Weber.
I responded to You who called Weber a:

"top quality defensive prospect like Weber to AK in order to get Umberger IS overpayment. ."

just because you and others ignored columbus fans doesnt mean we all do

and just because he plays Defense, it does not make Weber a top quality defensive prospect

notice you said defensive, not Defenseman, defensive implies his defensive abilities, especially in the context of what columbus fans were saying,

hell they just signed your former Power Play QB, for 33M Why would they want his backup?

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