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Brett Connolly to LA

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Old
08-27-2011, 05:27 PM
  #76
nhljohnson
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Kudos to OP for the idea of acquiring Connelly...that's a good move for the right price. Kudos to the Lightning fans for actually being willing to talk about a trade regarding one of their best prospects.

I think trading Bernier would be a step back for our win-now team. If we're gonna trade, it's going to have to be prospects for prospects. We have good prospects at pretty much every position BUT winger.

- R
Well said.

Yeah, like I initially posted, the original proposal is certainly intriguing but I think both teams are better off waiting a year or two and re-assessing their needs before committing to moving either player.

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08-27-2011, 05:32 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by markisonfire View Post
So, does Bernier + Voynov for Connolly + Philadelphia's 2nd round pick in 2012 make it any closer for Kings fans? Does that push it too far for Lightning fans?
From the Lightning's perspective, a tempting offer that would be welcome for consideration starting next off-season.

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08-27-2011, 05:37 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I'm not too great with these, but what about Voinov + Martin Jones for Connolly and Gudas?
A) To snag Connolly with a goalie, Bernier or Quick has to be coming back the other way.

B) The Lightning are very high on Gudas who, at present, is on the fast track to make the big club as the #6 or #7 in 2012-2013. I'd be shocked if he was used as a throw-in on a deal.

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08-27-2011, 05:52 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Oilersfan2354 View Post
Homerism at it's finest. Connolly is the best player of the 3 and Bernier is still far from proven
This.

Several experts said Connolly may have been in the race for 1st overall if not for an injury plagued season.

Bernier is a good prospect, but goalies are hard to judge and he's very unproven at the NHL level.

Yzerman won't trade Connolly until he's had a good chance to evaluate him at the NHL level, thas pretty much a guarantee.

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08-27-2011, 06:43 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Oilersfan2354 View Post
Look a bit closer then.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/brett_connolly

"Connolly is a pure offensive talent"

"Connolly is as talented as any of the forwards in the 2010 NHL draft and is an elite offensive player"
And look at this:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/tyler_toffoli

"Toffoli should be one of the better offensive prospects from his draft class."

And this:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospec...te_smith-pelly

"Smith-Pelly was also among the more skilled goal-scorers of his draft class. Giving him a great combination of skill, sandpaper, and hard work."

No one in this thread is doubting Connolly has a significant amount of skill and offensive creativity. As you can see, other players, drafted lower than him, do as well. Does that mean Connolly should have been a 2nd round pick? Quoting the way you have, maybe I can make that case. That said, we know that's not the honest truth.

My point is, you once again have done nothing, I repeat, nothing to show any proof that Connolly is worth more than Bernier, which was your original point to begin with. Show some proof that Bernier is a lesser player or lesser value than Connolly. You also did nothing to show Connolly would have battled Hall for 1st overall.


Last edited by kingsfan: 08-27-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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08-27-2011, 06:50 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by nhljohnson View Post
A) To snag Connolly with a goalie, Bernier or Quick has to be coming back the other way.

B) The Lightning are very high on Gudas who, at present, is on the fast track to make the big club as the #6 or #7 in 2012-2013. I'd be shocked if he was used as a throw-in on a deal.
I was thinking more on trying to snag Connolly with Voinov, however, I figure the Kings would have to add to get Connolly, so that's why I threw in Jones. However, since I figured a little more could come back the Kings way, I thought I'd ask about Gudas.

The parts from each side was Voinov and Connolly.

However, I understand now that my value was pretty far off, and asked specifically for Gudas, because I'm very high on him. I guess I was counting on Tampa Bay not being as high on him Like I said, I'm not too good at these, so I apologize for the bad value.

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08-27-2011, 06:55 PM
  #82
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[QUOTE=UniverStalinGraduate;36251528]
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post

The Lightning would not trade Connelly straight up for Bernier, they wouldn't even consider it.

The Kings would consider trading Bernier straight up for Connelly, and probably do it if they were foolish enough to think Quick was their guy for the future and beyond.
Your opinion, but certainly not fact. As a Kings fan, I wouldn't deal Bernier for Connolly but I think Tampa Bay would be smart to look hard at doing so, but that to is just personal opinion.

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08-27-2011, 07:56 PM
  #83
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[QUOTE=kingsfan;36253428]
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post

Your opinion, but certainly not fact. As a Kings fan, I wouldn't deal Bernier for Connolly but I think Tampa Bay would be smart to look hard at doing so, but that to is just personal opinion.
I don't think they would look as hard as you might think. Tampa has it's presumed "future goalie" down in Norfolk in the form of Tokarski. Janus is in there as well, although he did have a major off year last year.

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08-27-2011, 08:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by chasespace View Post

I don't think they would look as hard as you might think. Tampa has it's presumed "future goalie" down in Norfolk in the form of Tokarski. Janus is in there as well, although he did have a major off year last year.
Precisely, and with Roloson back in the fold this season, the Lightning brass have more time to evaluate Tokarski. I doubt Yzerman will trade for a goalie without first trying a Tokarski-Garon tandem in 2012-2013.

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08-27-2011, 08:43 PM
  #85
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Bernier will not be dealt for a potential future offensive threat... when the time comes LA will package either Quick or Bernier and bring in a true " established " offensive threat.. Tampa will have to look elsewhere to address that goaltending need.. LA is not in the market for acquiring prospects.

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08-27-2011, 09:11 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
And look at this:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/tyler_toffoli

"Toffoli should be one of the better offensive prospects from his draft class."

And this:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospec...te_smith-pelly

"Smith-Pelly was also among the more skilled goal-scorers of his draft class. Giving him a great combination of skill, sandpaper, and hard work."

No one in this thread is doubting Connolly has a significant amount of skill and offensive creativity. As you can see, other players, drafted lower than him, do as well. Does that mean Connolly should have been a 2nd round pick? Quoting the way you have, maybe I can make that case. That said, we know that's not the honest truth.

My point is, you once again have done nothing, I repeat, nothing to show any proof that Connolly is worth more than Bernier, which was your original point to begin with. Show some proof that Bernier is a lesser player or lesser value than Connolly. You also did nothing to show Connolly would have battled Hall for 1st overall.
Hmm. As "skilled as anyone" doesn't show he should've battled for 1st barring injury? And there's a big drop off to get to "one of the better" and "among the more skilled". You have continued to try and point out holes in my argument all the while not giving a shred of evidence what makes Bernier worth more than Connolly. I'm not a fan of either team, or even either player, I'm simply pointing out the bias of Kings fans

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08-28-2011, 02:56 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by LaLaLand View Post
Bernier will not be dealt for a potential future offensive threat... when the time comes LA will package either Quick or Bernier and bring in a true " established " offensive threat.. Tampa will have to look elsewhere to address that goaltending need.. LA is not in the market for acquiring prospects.
I'm not disagreeing, but who do you have in mind? Perhaps it won't be addressed this offseason, but even next, what team has a huge hole in net? In my mind, the only teams that don't have an established number one goaltender are the New York Islanders, New Jersey Devils (once Brodeur retires), Senators, Panthers (sort of, but a lot of good prospects), Tampa Bay, and Phoenix.

We can cross off Phoenix, I wouldn't want to trade Bernier or Quick within our division.

Of those teams, the only deals that really make sense for an "established" offensive threat require ridiculous overpayments. Even then, who are the established offensive wingers on any of those teams? Okposo? Grabner? Parise? Booth? At what price, too? We would be trading a guy that makes $1.25 million for best case scenario, $3 million? I just don't see the potential "established wingers" on teams that have a need for goaltenders.

The list of dynamic prospects isn't much better. Connolly? Neiderreiter? Filatov? Tedenby?

My personal opinion is that in the very near future, Martin Jones will be able to back up either Bernier or Quick, potentially even this year. He is a really, really good goaltender. Quick has the experience, Bernier has the stellar potential, so they both have equal value - albeit, not a ton of value. So honestly, where do you see an appropriate trade?

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08-28-2011, 01:11 PM
  #88
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[QUOTE=chasespace;36254552]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post

I don't think they would look as hard as you might think. Tampa has it's presumed "future goalie" down in Norfolk in the form of Tokarski. Janus is in there as well, although he did have a major off year last year.
I agree, they do have potential future goalies, though that said I think Bernier would surpass them all, both in upside as well as readiness. That said, I'm not trying to imply that Tampa Bay is eager to deal Connolly for Bernier or anything, just saying that there's just as much reason for Tampa Bay to look at the deal as there is for LA.

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08-28-2011, 02:09 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Oilersfan2354 View Post
Hmm. As "skilled as anyone" doesn't show he should've battled for 1st barring injury? And there's a big drop off to get to "one of the better" and "among the more skilled". You have continued to try and point out holes in my argument all the while not giving a shred of evidence what makes Bernier worth more than Connolly. I'm not a fan of either team, or even either player, I'm simply pointing out the bias of Kings fans
What evidence have you shown that Connolly is worth more than Bernier? Nothing. At least I showed a list that has Bernier above Connolly and showed the likely market price of Bernier who is comparble to Varlamov. You keep saying I show no proof, yet I've shown those two items. What have you shown? Nothing. Even your scouting reporting doesn't prove that Connolly would have challenged Hall for first overall, it just says he's skilled as anyone. Who doubted that? So is Seguin, Kutnetsov, Burmistrov, Fowler, Gudbrandson, etc. What puts Connolly above them? Show me where one scout or GM said that he would have put Connolly next to Hall if not for the injury. Show me that.

I have given you evidence. I have given you two examples. Give me one that isn't your opinion or interpretation. You are not a scout or a GM, therefore I don't care about what you believe would happen. Show me a list, a draft ranking, something. Even that HF link doesn't say that Connolly would have challenged for number one, that's your interpretation.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/tyler_seguin

"Seguin is the kind of player you can build a team around."

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/evgeny_Kuznetsov

"Kuznetsov displays a mixture of strength and skill along with the exuberance of other young Russian players such as Evgeny Malkin."

"What sets him apart from other players his age is his flawless skating, stick handling and passing and pass receiving skills"

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospec...der_burmistrov

"One of the more electrifying players in his age group, having the ability to create offesnive opportunites when none might be obvious."

A player you can build around, a player like a young Evgeni Malkin, one of the more electrifying players in his age group, those good enough for you top Connolly? And that's just forwards, I haven't even included Gudbrandson and Fowler in the mix, and Fowler was expected to be picked extremely high by many experts, that's a well known fact. Don't believe me? Here's the mid-term CSB rankings for the 2010 draft:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=59880

Connolly sits forth. And that's just among North American skaters, and doesn't include any goalies, like Jack Campbell, or Euro skaters like Kuznetsov and Burmistrov who could have moved ahead. Connolly at 6th overall is likely a very fair assessment at the mid-way point of the season, and with his injury likely should have dropped further, but Yzerman and Co. felt he was still worth that 6th overall ranking apparently. Even if you assume the top four NA skaters were the top four overall by CSB, which isn't a guarantee by any stretch, than Connolly still was 4th overall at the mid-way point, even with the 16 games he had played fresh in their minds. Seguin and Fowler are ahead of him, and likely one or two others as well, wether it be a goalie or a Euro player.

On this preliminary listing, he's ranked 7th coming into the draft season, so even before he was injured: http://www.thescoutingreport.org/nhl...p-15-rankings/

This thread on Hockeysfuture mentions Connolly only twice in four pages during discussion of the 2010 draft, from about 18 months before the draft, with only two posters actually saying he should even be a first round pick: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=588748

This draft ranking has Connolly at 8th overall for the draft: http://thehockeywriters.com/the-hock...pect-rankings/

McKeen's hockey had him at 7th for the draft: http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/barr...tid=&mid=&rid=

In his first appearance on The Hockey News Future Watch issue, Connolly sits as the 31st best NHL prospect, which is behind fellow 2010 NHL draft picks Ryan Johansen (2nd overall on THN's list), Jack Campbell (10th overall), Erik Gudbrandson (4th overall), Nick Bjustad (26th overall), Mikael Granlund (20th overall), Nino Niedereiter (6th overall), Brandon Gromley (12th overall), Vladimir Tarasenko (5th overall), Jaden Schwartz (23rd overall), Charlie Coyle (11th overall), Evgeny Kuznetsov (3rd overall). Only Johansen, Gudbrandson and Niederrieter were actually drafted ahead of Connolly in the draft. And that list doesn't include Jeff Skinner, Taylor Hall, Cam Fowler, Alexander Burmistrov or Tyler Seguin becaue they are NHLers and not considered prospects.

Don't you think Connolly would be moving up that list if the only thing holding him back from competiting for first overall was his injury? He had a healthy season, so why didn't he surpass those guys? That list is compiled by actual NHL scouts and GM's by the way. If you look at those rankings, if that panel of scouts could the draft over again, they would rank Connolly 17th for the draft, assuming they ranked Jeff Skinner, Taylor Hall, Cam Fowler, Alexander Burmistrov and Tyler Seguin ahead of Connolly as well.

The Hockey News also does a preview for drafts in upcoming years. In 2008's Future watch they did a two year projection to the top 10 picks for the 2010 draft. Brett Connolly never made the list. In 2009 they also did a preview for the top 10 for 2010 and Connolly was ranked 9th overall.

I don't have links for the Hockey News articles, just the hard copies, but other Future Watch owners out there can confirm what I have written. It's in the their books, it's fact.

There. Is that enough proof? Or do you anything to prove otherwise than Connolly should have gone 1st or 2nd overall?

Btw, quit saying I don't show any proof. You have not shown anything that isn't your own interpretation, something I have done in spades, even before this post. Show me something where someone else actually says that yes, Connoly should have or would have gone top two if not for the injury. You've never done that once.


Last edited by kingsfan: 08-28-2011 at 02:17 PM.
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08-28-2011, 02:12 PM
  #90
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I'm not disagreeing, but who do you have in mind? Perhaps it won't be addressed this offseason, but even next, what team has a huge hole in net? In my mind, the only teams that don't have an established number one goaltender are the New York Islanders, New Jersey Devils (once Brodeur retires), Senators, Panthers (sort of, but a lot of good prospects), Tampa Bay, and Phoenix.

We can cross off Phoenix, I wouldn't want to trade Bernier or Quick within our division.

Of those teams, the only deals that really make sense for an "established" offensive threat require ridiculous overpayments. Even then, who are the established offensive wingers on any of those teams? Okposo? Grabner? Parise? Booth? At what price, too? We would be trading a guy that makes $1.25 million for best case scenario, $3 million? I just don't see the potential "established wingers" on teams that have a need for goaltenders.

The list of dynamic prospects isn't much better. Connolly? Neiderreiter? Filatov? Tedenby?

My personal opinion is that in the very near future, Martin Jones will be able to back up either Bernier or Quick, potentially even this year. He is a really, really good goaltender. Quick has the experience, Bernier has the stellar potential, so they both have equal value - albeit, not a ton of value. So honestly, where do you see an appropriate trade?
Why do we have to deal anyone? Why do we need Connolly? Why can't we just draft our own players an develop them like we have been doing under DL? Toffoli looks nice and whose to say we don't get another player this draft?

When you force an issue, that's when you get burned. We have two great goalies and are trying to make a big push this year, don't tinker with that worrying about something which might not even be an issue in the future.

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08-28-2011, 03:44 PM
  #91
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Personally I wouldn't do the deal. I think Connolly will become a very solid top 6 guy for us, probably a top 3 guy. Bernier I'm not going to question his potential, but how many times have Tampa been bent over for going after a guy that was persumingly ready to take the number one job? Don't like it, especially with Tokarski seemingly banging on the door for NHL time as it is. Were not grasping at straws for goalies at the moment, so a desperate move like this makes no sense for us.

Roloson is a pretty damn good goalie, but Lightning fans are not blind to see that he is anything more than a stop gap for the future. (Though a damn good one at that for us.) What purpose does this have? The reward in my mind does not out way the risk. We have a very very strong offensive pipeline within our system, with almost as equally strong goaie pipeline. Tokarski will become our backup next season (Barring an absolutely horrible season this year) and our starter as of the season after that. Hell he may become our starter next year. Kid is a winner, and not to slight Bernier at all in this, just this trade doesn't make too much sense for the Bolts, least in my eyes.

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08-28-2011, 05:04 PM
  #92
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Personally I wouldn't do the deal. I think Connolly will become a very solid top 6 guy for us, probably a top 3 guy. Bernier I'm not going to question his potential, but how many times have Tampa been bent over for going after a guy that was persumingly ready to take the number one job? Don't like it, especially with Tokarski seemingly banging on the door for NHL time as it is. Were not grasping at straws for goalies at the moment, so a desperate move like this makes no sense for us.

Roloson is a pretty damn good goalie, but Lightning fans are not blind to see that he is anything more than a stop gap for the future. (Though a damn good one at that for us.) What purpose does this have? The reward in my mind does not out way the risk. We have a very very strong offensive pipeline within our system, with almost as equally strong goaie pipeline. Tokarski will become our backup next season (Barring an absolutely horrible season this year) and our starter as of the season after that. Hell he may become our starter next year. Kid is a winner, and not to slight Bernier at all in this, just this trade doesn't make too much sense for the Bolts, least in my eyes.
Excellent post. I can completely agree with this.

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