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Interesting tweet from Bill Roose regarding Parise

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Old
08-31-2011, 01:31 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I think if Hossa could do anything resembling his offensive ability in the playoffs while on the Wings or Hawks it would change a lot of minds. But his Pens playoff run is quite a while ago.
Not only awhile ago but a clear outlier against the rest of his playoff resume. I'm looking over his career numbers in the playoffs, and that time with the pens was the only time he broke 1 ppg in a playoff run. It was the only time he broke .9 ppg. For a guy getting paid what Hossa was pulling down, he has to put more on the scoreboard.

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Originally Posted by Leadzedder View Post
Dark Reign, one if us is incorrect. I don't think it's me. Might be though.

That summer had alot of things going on. Z, Franz, Hossa, huds, Sammy. It was a juggling act for sure. My memory is fuzzy. I'll look into it. I'm curious now. The way I remember it was z first. Then Franzen. Then there was not much more than a borderline insulting offer to Hossa. We all knew he wasn't staying.

I remember being surprised how low his cap hit was with Chicago thinking it was almost doable.

Again, this is fuzzy but I was of the thought Huds really ended up doing us a favor by bolting to Russia. Hmmm. Was that all the same summer? I'm on cell so I'll have to check my facts.
Z was signed first. Then Franzen. There was talk that Franzen and Hossa had contracts before them at the same time, Franzen signed first, and that resulted in the offer to Hossa being lowered, but I might be foggy on that point. As the playoffs rolled around, I think the Wings soured a bit on Hossa because of his lack of productivity and leaned further towards re-signing as many as they could; which also proved to not work out very well.

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08-31-2011, 01:39 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Not only awhile ago but a clear outlier against the rest of his playoff resume. I'm looking over his career numbers in the playoffs, and that time with the pens was the only time he broke 1 ppg in a playoff run. It was the only time he broke .9 ppg. For a guy getting paid what Hossa was pulling down, he has to put more on the scoreboard.



Z was signed first. Then Franzen. There was talk that Franzen and Hossa had contracts before them at the same time, Franzen signed first, and that resulted in the offer to Hossa being lowered, but I might be foggy on that point. As the playoffs rolled around, I think the Wings soured a bit on Hossa because of his lack of productivity and leaned further towards re-signing as many as they could; which also proved to not work out very well.
But it was also his only recent playoff run that he wasn't dealing with a serious injury. When he wasn't scoring he was still a beast on the back-check and he was still skating well which makes him a threat. I don't mean to derail this thread even further, but not retaining Hossa was a mistake by Ken Holland. He should have done more to fit him in.

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08-31-2011, 01:43 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
But it was also his only recent playoff run that he wasn't dealing with a serious injury. When he wasn't scoring he was still a beast on the back-check and he was still skating well which makes him a threat. I don't mean to derail this thread even further, but not retaining Hossa was a mistake by Ken Holland. He should have done more to fit him in.
Hossa had the same injury all season on the Wings and still scored 40 goals. Using that is a cop-out.

And what was his injury during the Hawks cup run?

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08-31-2011, 01:50 PM
  #79
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Hossa's also been around for 13 years and has 127 playoff games under his belt. his ppg falls from .92 in the regular season to .76 in the playoffs. And if you remove that year with the Pens, his playoff ppg drops to .66 in 107 games.

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08-31-2011, 02:03 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Hossa had the same injury all season on the Wings and still scored 40 goals. Using that is a cop-out.

And what was his injury during the Hawks cup run?
I'm not sure but I believe he was dealing with some injury during the Hawks run. He was out for a couple long stretches of games that season (one being the start of the season because he had shoulder surgery after his playoff run with Detroit).

No one knows that he was dealing with the same injury during his time in Detroit. It could have gotten aggravated late in the season or during the playoffs. He did take a head first dive into the boards late in the season and was carried off in a stretcher.

....now I just sound like one of the Hudler defenders.

Bottomline...I think Hossa is a elite player and he's gonna bum Red Wings fans out big time this season, especially now that he has finally had some substantial rest.

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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Hossa's also been around for 13 years and has 127 playoff games under his belt. his ppg falls from .92 in the regular season to .76 in the playoffs. And if you remove that year with the Pens, his playoff ppg drops to .66 in 107 games.
Yet his Olympic stats have always been great, it's not like he can't handle the pressure of competition.


Last edited by crashman: 08-31-2011 at 02:08 PM.
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08-31-2011, 02:18 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
No one knows that he was dealing with the same injury during his time in Detroit. It could have gotten aggravated late in the season or during the playoffs. He did take a head first dive into the boards late in the season and was carried off in a stretcher.
Wings management knew.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....nd_says_1.html

"He was hurt before he got to us,'' Holland said. "Our doctors looked at him and we had conversations about whether to have surgery. Our doctors recommended he should have something done at some point but it's something he can play with.''

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08-31-2011, 02:23 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Wings management knew.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....nd_says_1.html

"He was hurt before he got to us,'' Holland said. "Our doctors looked at him and we had conversations about whether to have surgery. Our doctors recommended he should have something done at some point but it's something he can play with.''
And he still scored 40 goals...makes it an even bigger mistake letting him go.

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08-31-2011, 02:26 PM
  #83
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Sign Parise to play on the second line? Yeah, I'm sure he'd love that.

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08-31-2011, 02:35 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
And he still scored 40 goals...makes it an even bigger mistake letting him go.
And did nothing in the playoffs. I would've liked to sign him, but not for what he got in Chicago.

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Sign Parise to play on the second line? Yeah, I'm sure he'd love that.
He would get his appropriate icetime.

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08-31-2011, 02:39 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
Incorrect.

Hossa was not signed longterm strictly because Ken Holland refused to identify the individual players he wanted to keep at the expense of others.

Holland wanted to "keep the band together", so to speak, offering every UFA a realistic deal that offseason, including two players who were never important (Samuelsson and Hudler).

If Holland, like we all wanted, had just offered Franzen his deal and Hossa somewhere around $5 (instead of $4), Hossa would be a Wing for life with Samuelsson and Hudler walking away like they should have.


Ok, so I just spent 20 minutes looking at old junk. Here's what I think I've learned....

We rightfully signed Zetterberg to a crafty low cap number contract.

We, arguably, signed the better of the two options in Franzen to a 4 mil deal.

That was the only possible way Hossa was staying. Soon as Franzen signed the door was pretty much shut. Holland still tried to sell teh keep the band together but everyone knew different. Looking back at speculation no one suggested we could keep all 3. There was some trade Rafalski talk amongst posters (myself included) but that was a stretch. Most suggested it would take 6 mil to keep Hossa. It was a Franz for 4 or Hoss for 6 debate. It was speculated by the media the wings offered him a deal between 3.75 - 4 for 10 years. Not suprisingly, he didn't jump at it. We didn't have any more to offer him. So the only Hossa decision that summer was him or Franzen. We chose the redwing for the better price tag.

We lost Sammy. Holland was informed early on that he was testing UFA. Sammy busted out his calculator and knew he wasnt' getting anythign worthwhile from Holland.

Huds went for the green and the Russian women. (I would have too)

We lost Hossa, Samuelson, Hudler and Kopecky. We replaced them with Bertuzzi, Williams, Eaves and May. Those 4 players added up to 4 million. Would have been impossible to get Hossa.

Further more and more to the point I'd like to make, was almost impossible to get Hudler in the lineup with his arbitration award. Hudler at 3(ish) and 3 warm bodies would have been 4.5m. I'm not sure what kind of cap space we had going into that season but I think we didn't even have enough to call up guys for injuries. So, really that whole Hudler thing enabled us to replace him with Bert and JWill which was very good for much needed depth that year.

I dont' care about beign correct or whatever. I more just wanted to look back and see what was going on that summer. ONe thing, as a reader of the board, that always irked my was people going on about the horrible Hudler and how he wrecked us in the summer of 09. Now that's incorrect.

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08-31-2011, 02:45 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
And he still scored 40 goals...makes it an even bigger mistake letting him go.

I both liked and disliked Hossa. He's a great player. Explosive offense. Good defence. I'd gladly have him on our team.

I've always thought that when Hossa was talking to Holland at the gas station he said that part of the deal was that he either play with Dats or Zetterberg as his center. That's probably not true but I've always thought that. The year before we had the top line in hockey with DZH. After Hossa showed up that line stopped being used. It seemed to me Datsyuk changed his playing for Hossa and although they were productive together I didn't think it let Pav be PAv. Franz, Flip and Hossa would have been an awesome line to compliment Dats line.

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08-31-2011, 02:53 PM
  #87
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And did nothing in the playoffs. I would've liked to sign him, but not for what he got in Chicago.
15 pts isn't nothing, but I agree that he wasn't stellar. He still did a lot of good things even though he didn't light it up offensively. Don't forget we made it to game 7 and were just inches away from OT, we wouldn't have been there without him.

I just have a problem with people (mostly Red Wings fans) claiming that he isn't a playoff performer when he was probably the 2nd best player in playoffs (behind Zetterberg who won the Conn Smythe) just one season before he came to Detroit. He was the Pens best player during that run because Crosby was shut down by Z and he hadn't really come into his own yet, especially when you consider his 2-way game that Crosby still can't touch.

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08-31-2011, 02:54 PM
  #88
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15 pts isn't nothing, but I agree that he wasn't stellar. He still did a lot of good things even though he didn't light it up offensively. Don't forget we made it to game 7 and were just inches away from OT, we wouldn't have been there without him.

I just have a problem with people (mostly Red Wings fans) claiming that he isn't a playoff performer when he was probably the 2nd best player in playoffs (behind Zetterberg who won the Conn Smythe) just one season before he came to Detroit. He was the Pens best forward during that run because Crosby was shut down by Z and he hadn't really come into his own yet.
He scored 6 goals in the playoffs and they all came in 3 games. Hossa was no where near the 2nd best player in the playoffs. Especially not with the performances Z and Franzen put up.

Regardless, it's impossible for me to accurately explain my feelings because no matter what I say from now on it'll just make me look like I'm a Hossa hater.


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08-31-2011, 03:00 PM
  #89
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He scored 6 goals in the playoffs and they all came in 3 games. Hossa was no where near the 2nd best player in the playoffs. Especially not with the performances Z and Franzen put up.
I was referring to 08.

Edit: No worries, I'm a Hossa lover. I try not to let my biases totally skew my opinions, but I sure they do anyway. I try not to take these discussions too seriously because none of us can predict the future. Maybe we land Weber and Parise next off-season, then you won't hear me mention us not signing Hossa ever again.

I'm also a Hudler hater and I don't care who knows it.


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08-31-2011, 03:02 PM
  #90
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I was referring to 08.
Oh, right.

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08-31-2011, 05:10 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
see your first line is the problem.

you really believe detroit is still more enviable of a place to play as compared to
-vancouver, calgary, toronto, montreal, boston, washington, pittsburgh, philly, tampa, new york, anaheim, la, san jose, chicago?

thats 14 teams/cities where players love playing in 2011. this isnt 2002 anymore, the cap has somewhat leveled the playing field and detroit is no longer one of just 2 or 3 top destinations with the other 27 teams eating our crumbs
I saw this point and just want to say that the Wings still have a reputation as being one of the best-run organizations in the NHL. I like to think the Devils have the same sort of reputation, since it's something we hear a lot from departed/returning players as well as guys that the Devils bring in.

I'm not stopping by just to inflate your fan-egos or anything, but as Devils fans, we're sorta reminded pretty often that, in a few respects, the only team more successful than ours over the past decade has been Detroit. If Parise doesn't sign with the Devils next July, I'd love to see him with Detroit (and him being in the West would be a plus... )

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09-01-2011, 11:43 AM
  #92
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I saw this point and just want to say that the Wings still have a reputation as being one of the best-run organizations in the NHL. I like to think the Devils have the same sort of reputation, since it's something we hear a lot from departed/returning players as well as guys that the Devils bring in.

I'm not stopping by just to inflate your fan-egos or anything, but as Devils fans, we're sorta reminded pretty often that, in a few respects, the only team more successful than ours over the past decade has been Detroit. If Parise doesn't sign with the Devils next July, I'd love to see him with Detroit (and him being in the West would be a plus... )
thanks for stopping by.

sometimes it seems people see the word "still" and infer it to mean "no longer, not anymore, once was"

detroit is a favourite place to play but the gap between us and at least a dozen plus other team has shrunk considerably over the past few seasons to the point we cna no longer assume all players will waltz into KH's office and demand to play for the DRW regardless of monetary reward.

ex, if detroit offerd parise 40 million and vancouver offered 44million he would almost certainly go play in beautiful vancouver

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09-01-2011, 12:36 PM
  #93
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Yet his Olympic stats have always been great, it's not like he can't handle the pressure of competition.
The olympics are substantially different game from the NHL playoffs, though. Bigger ice, more time and, maybe, he just cares more about the olympics. Teemu Selanne has been the same way. It's not a knock on them personally, but something about their games does not seem to translate well to the NHL playoffs.

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09-01-2011, 11:31 PM
  #94
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The olympics are substantially different game from the NHL playoffs, though. Bigger ice, more time and, maybe, he just cares more about the olympics. Teemu Selanne has been the same way. It's not a knock on them personally, but something about their games does not seem to translate well to the NHL playoffs.

What a strange thing to say, after the post-season both of them had.

Selanne played amazing, and had 6 goals in 6 games. 7 points, total. He had points in every game.
Hossa looked strong as well, with 6 points in the 7 games against the Nucks. He had no points in the first 3 games, and exploded to rally the almost comeback.

I understand you're averaging career numbers, but both players were excellent just a few months ago in the playoffs. They're an asset to any team.

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09-01-2011, 11:56 PM
  #95
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What a strange thing to say, after the post-season both of them had.

Selanne played amazing, and had 6 goals in 6 games. 7 points, total. He had points in every game.
Hossa looked strong as well, with 6 points in the 7 games against the Nucks. He had no points in the first 3 games, and exploded to rally the almost comeback.

I understand you're averaging career numbers, but both players were excellent just a few months ago in the playoffs. They're an asset to any team.
Ironically he got points once the team around him got better.

And he only scored two goals, those goals coming in one game. Not what you expect from a 40+ goal scorer.

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09-02-2011, 12:11 AM
  #96
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Ill worry about this next summer.....

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09-02-2011, 12:13 AM
  #97
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What a strange thing to say, after the post-season both of them had.

Selanne played amazing, and had 6 goals in 6 games. 7 points, total. He had points in every game.
Hossa looked strong as well, with 6 points in the 7 games against the Nucks. He had no points in the first 3 games, and exploded to rally the almost comeback.

I understand you're averaging career numbers, but both players were excellent just a few months ago in the playoffs. They're an asset to any team.
I'm not saying they're not assets, or that they're bad players. It's just that, over their careers, neither has performed in the playoffs at a level that matches their performances in the regular season or in the olympics. They're still good (to great) players, but it is something that I think would need to be considered when offering them a deal.

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09-02-2011, 07:59 AM
  #98
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It's more than coincidence that led Hossa to 3 straight Cup appearances, and his eventual Cup.

Top teams attract top talent and 3 top teams gladly opened their door for him and had it pay off come post season.

Let me put it this way: It's a damn shame Hossa couldn't have stayed. He fit in beautifully for that one season. On his current contract, he would have been a great addition to the Wings core.

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09-02-2011, 10:15 AM
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well, when you're a free agent two of those years and essentially have your pick of the litter, yeah, your chances of being on a cup contending team tend to increase.

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09-02-2011, 01:35 PM
  #100
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well, when you're a free agent two of those years and essentially have your pick of the litter, yeah, your chances of being on a cup contending team tend to increase.
I like franzen too dont get me wrong but jesus he isnt even in the same league as maid marian.

the day franzen actually scores 40 goals is the day he can be talked about as a 40 goal scorer. the differnce between hossa and franzen is laughable, come on now guys.

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