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Ryan Johansen Expectations

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Old
09-17-2011, 02:10 PM
  #51
pete goegan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
The expectations for RyJo are soaring, let's be reality, he's a 19 year old kid who will be lucky to score 20-30 points if he plays a full season in the NHL.
He ain't ready yet. The hype is getting ridiculous around here. You guys (everyone, not you Pete) do it for every rookie we get.
I certainly understand (and share) your reluctance to put too many high expectations on The Johan, but I also reject the idea that he has to go back to Juniors because Brule, and others, were advanced too fast. I want to see him progress at his own rate, without regard to what anyone before him did or did not do. I have to trust the Scotties to do what's right for Ryan and the organization. If he's ready for the NHL, or if they believe his advancement is better served by developing in Columbus, rather than Portland, then I want him here.

Edit: Schenn, how he's rated, and how he's been developed, have no bearing on Johansen - different players, different organizations.


Last edited by pete goegan: 09-17-2011 at 02:16 PM.
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09-17-2011, 03:04 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
he's a 19 year old kid who will be lucky to score 20-30 points if he plays a full season in the NHL.
He ain't ready yet. The hype is getting ridiculous around here. You guys (everyone, not you Pete) do it for every rookie we get.
What grounds are you basing this statement on? The Brule issue?

You cannot compare this situation to the Gilbert Brule situation, it is a vastly different scenario altogether.

Gilbert Brule was a 5'10" power forward. As an 18 year old in the NHL, the kid didn't stand a chance at playing the style of game that he did in junior - anybody who thought otherwise was just kidding themselves. I saw Gilbert Brule play in the WHL, and I knew exactly what his style was, and what he was capable of being in the NHL. He scored his points because of effort, brute strength, and a willingness to go to the dirty areas. When he got rushed to the NHL - the key word here is rushed, because I do believe that he was brought along too quickly - he wasn't nearly strong enough to play that style, and he wasn't the kind of kid that was drafted to have his style changed over at such a young age. Brule also had the misfortune of being dumped into a mish-mash lineup of mostly depth NHL players, and was relied on to play a scoring role on a generally bad team.

Unless you're a Sidney Crosby type player, this is a recipe for poor results. Getting thrown to the wolves is a terrible way to develop a top prospect.

In contrast, Ryan Johansen's situation is completely different. Ryan is a 6'3" center who relies on speed/skill to create his opportunities. He was given a full year in junior - without being injured in the NHL as an 18 year old - to develop his game, and he did exactly that. He doesn't have to come into the lineup and be an 18 year old phenom, because we finally have a forward group capable of providing him with a supporting cast - he can be a second or third line player, and won't have to face up against the other team's top players each and every shift. If Johansen comes to camp ready to play, he will be on this team.

I don't know what you have against the kid, but all you ever seem to do is gripe on him. Nobody here is calling him the next Wayne Gretzky, but he absolutely does have the potential to be this team's top line center ... very soon. Your comment about everyone over-hyping our prospects was completely unfair. Ryan Johansen is one of the top prospects not playing in the NHL - and that's a thought held by many in the hockey world. Trust me, I know some very important people in the scouting field, and they will tell you exactly the same thing.

Perhaps you're still upset that we took him instead of Cam Fowler?

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09-17-2011, 03:42 PM
  #53
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I think the expectation should be for him to make the team. He wouldn't be the first 19 year old to play in the NHL even if it was in a limited role the first year but it wouldn't hurt him to play in junior an extra year either. It's up to him if he's matured enough to play against men. It will be interesting to see how he's developed over the past year.

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09-17-2011, 05:44 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Byrral View Post
I think the expectation should be for him to make the team. He wouldn't be the first 19 year old to play in the NHL even if it was in a limited role the first year but it wouldn't hurt him to play in junior an extra year either. It's up to him if he's matured enough to play against men. It will be interesting to see how he's developed over the past year.
Exactly.

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09-17-2011, 08:17 PM
  #55
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I think he would be wasted being sent back to the juniors, and am hopeful to see him make the team.

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09-17-2011, 08:38 PM
  #56
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It wouldn't be a waste if that is where his play in preseason dictates where he should be. There is not golden standard here that people are looking for. Every prospect is different, camp is here, lets just let him decide where he should be. If he isn't good enough to be a top 9 center then he needs to be in juniors, but if he is good enough to be a top 9 center this year, then he might be best suited for the NHL, regardless we have a blue chipper and he's going to be a force in Columbus one day.

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09-17-2011, 08:56 PM
  #57
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He should get his nine games at the start of the season. Preseason, IMO, isn't the end-all-be-all, I mean Filatov was great last preseason and sank like a stone soon after.

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09-17-2011, 09:06 PM
  #58
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As I said above, I think Johansen will be the most intriguing story-line of training camp and I agree that his play will dictate whether he should stay or go.

Putting that aside, I heard an interesting line a week or two ago but I can't remember who to attribute the quote to. It may have even been Arniel who mentioned this at Fanfest but I honestly forget who. This is paraphrasing, but it was something this...

"Many prospect careers have been ruined by being rushed to the NHL too soon, but no prospect's career has been ruined by having to spend extra time in juniors or the minors."

Can anyone provide an example that disputes this statement? If Johansen doesn't make the team, there has been alot of concern that he has nothing else to learn in the WHL. I'm just curious if there is a good example of a top prospect who was close to making the NHL and got worse after they were sent back to Juniors?

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09-18-2011, 08:57 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
Can anyone provide an example that disputes this statement? If Johansen doesn't make the team, there has been alot of concern that he has nothing else to learn in the WHL. I'm just curious if there is a good example of a top prospect who was close to making the NHL and got worse after they were sent back to Juniors?
I wouldn't argue that thought for one second, because you're absolutely right. My complaint is in the people who are saying that he for sure won't make the team. The only thing that will determine where RyJo ends up playing this year, is how ready the team decides he is. That is my main point.

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09-18-2011, 10:04 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoChiefsGo View Post
I wouldn't argue that thought for one second, because you're absolutely right. My complaint is in the people who are saying that he for sure won't make the team. The only thing that will determine where RyJo ends up playing this year, is how ready the team decides he is. That is my main point.
I hear you. I wasn't trying to be snarky and making a case against Johansen making the team. The quote I referenced really did get me wondering if there has been a case of someone who seemed to regress if they went back or stayed in Juniors. We hear many names (i.e. Brule) thrown out for the 'he was rushed' scenario and I was wondering if there were any poster children for the counterpoint scenario.

Angelo Esposito came to my mind, but it's highly unlikely that his career trajectory would have been any different had he left Juniors earlier.

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09-19-2011, 06:17 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
I hear you. I wasn't trying to be snarky and making a case against Johansen making the team. The quote I referenced really did get me wondering if there has been a case of someone who seemed to regress if they went back or stayed in Juniors. We hear many names (i.e. Brule) thrown out for the 'he was rushed' scenario and I was wondering if there were any poster children for the counterpoint scenario.

Angelo Esposito came to my mind, but it's highly unlikely that his career trajectory would have been any different had he left Juniors earlier.
Cody Hodgson.

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09-19-2011, 06:29 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
Angelo Esposito came to my mind, but it's highly unlikely that his career trajectory would have been any different had he left Juniors earlier.
That's the problem with that entire line of speculation, who knows what would have happened if things had been handled differently? Might Brule have become a star had he been left to percolate further in Juniors? Who knows? As with much of our blather, it amuses us, but is impossible to verify in any meaningful way.

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09-19-2011, 07:09 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by FunkyColdHrdina View Post
I mean Filatov was great last preseason and sank like a stone soon after.
Like hell he was.

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09-19-2011, 07:13 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
Cody Hodgson.
That's a good one, although I think his back injury after his last junior year had more to do with the blip in his progression - his game itself seemed to still get better his final year with Brampton. But he's an interesting case if he doesn't take a step forward this year or next.

I agree with Pete that it is a fool's argument. I was just struck by the quote about being 'rushed' versus being 'extra-cooked' and was trying to think how much merit there was to the idea that you couldn't hurt someone's career by sending them back to Juniors.

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09-19-2011, 09:32 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
He ain't ready yet.
Thank goodness you are here to tell us when a player is ready or not...

How about I tell you if I think he's ready over the next couple of weeks instead of making some generalized statement that you don't know if it's fact or not (like it matters what you or I think honestly). The odds are with you, but that doesn't translate into an intelligent analysis of the situation. It's just chest thumping.

But statements like yours are just as bad as the crowd that thinks he's a lock.

I called DM and Clitsome being ready (not to mention Filatov not being ready as well as Stralman needing to go) to contribute at this level. I'll give you an honest impression and we'll see if I'm totally off base.

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09-19-2011, 10:25 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
That's a good one, although I think his back injury after his last junior year had more to do with the blip in his progression - his game itself seemed to still get better his final year with Brampton. But he's an interesting case if he doesn't take a step forward this year or next.

I agree with Pete that it is a fool's argument. I was just struck by the quote about being 'rushed' versus being 'extra-cooked' and was trying to think how much merit there was to the idea that you couldn't hurt someone's career by sending them back to Juniors.
I think the big thing is we all notice when someone is rushed, because we see them not playing well in the NHL. It is tough to notice those who stay too long in juniors. We aren't watching them play and, if they aren't in our organization, can forget about them.

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09-19-2011, 01:03 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
I hear you. I wasn't trying to be snarky and making a case against Johansen making the team. The quote I referenced really did get me wondering if there has been a case of someone who seemed to regress if they went back or stayed in Juniors. We hear many names (i.e. Brule) thrown out for the 'he was rushed' scenario and I was wondering if there were any poster children for the counterpoint scenario.

Angelo Esposito came to my mind, but it's highly unlikely that his career trajectory would have been any different had he left Juniors earlier.
Esposito was on a downward spiral before the draft, though ... that's an argument I would make against that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
That's the problem with that entire line of speculation, who knows what would have happened if things had been handled differently? Might Brule have become a star had he been left to percolate further in Juniors? Who knows? As with much of our blather, it amuses us, but is impossible to verify in any meaningful way.
I saw Brule in juniors, and I honestly think that without the injury problems, and being allowed to hone the other areas of his game, he could have been a legit NHL star player. He simply wasn't going to play that same style in the NHL, and he wasn't good enough in any other areas to make up for it. He could have been a Jeremy Roenick type player for us, I really believe that.

Sending Johansen back to juniors isn't going to be a bad thing. He'll play in the Western Hockey League - certainly not an easy league to compete in. The team will have a lot of returning skill players, people who can play on his level and continue to challenge him to be better. He will play for team Canada again at the WJCs, probably as their best player. Plus, I'm certainly not against seeing him play another 20 times this year

The only argument I could ever make for not sending him back to juniors would be the risk of injury - but that could happen anywhere, anytime.

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09-19-2011, 01:34 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoChiefsGo View Post
Perhaps you're still upset that we took him instead of Cam Fowler?
Got it in one. TW has come out and admitted as much before, and I frankly don't think that'll change unless Johan wins the Calder. And maybe not even then.

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09-19-2011, 01:51 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Got it in one. TW has come out and admitted as much before, and I frankly don't think that'll change unless Johan wins the Calder. And maybe not even then.
Johan could win the Hart, Ross, Conn Smythe, and lead the Jackets to the Stanley Cup this year and TW would still be ******** that Howson drafted him instead of Cam Fowler.

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09-19-2011, 03:23 PM
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Johan could win the Hart, Ross, Conn Smythe, and lead the Jackets to the Stanley Cup this year and TW would still be ******** that Howson drafted him instead of Cam Fowler.
Very nice said...

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09-19-2011, 05:16 PM
  #71
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The Ducks will regret keeping Fowler last year, in spite of the fact that he had a good year (offensively). I know this isn't a Cam Fowler topic, but would you rather have a one-dimensional offensive defenseman (Cam Fowler now), or one that had another year (or two) in junior to become an all around defenseman (what they could have done)?

Fowler will struggle in the NHL, from a defensive standpoint. Mark my words. We won't have to worry about that with Johansen.

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09-24-2011, 12:12 AM
  #72
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Since camp has started, has anything changed to make you guys think Johansen stays up?

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09-24-2011, 02:03 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by GoChiefsGo View Post
The Ducks will regret keeping Fowler last year, in spite of the fact that he had a good year (offensively). I know this isn't a Cam Fowler topic, but would you rather have a one-dimensional offensive defenseman (Cam Fowler now), or one that had another year (or two) in junior to become an all around defenseman (what they could have done)?

Fowler will struggle in the NHL, from a defensive standpoint. Mark my words. We won't have to worry about that with Johansen.


Yeah, I'm sure Cam Fowler is much worse having Scott Niedermayer coach him personally than he would have been staying in Juniors.

I needed a laugh.

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09-24-2011, 02:57 AM
  #74
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The quote I referenced really did get me wondering if there has been a case of someone who seemed to regress if they went back or stayed in Juniors.
Thomas Hickey. 4th overall in 2007 has never played an NHL game. Possibly Zach Hamill from the same draft. Bruins were loaded at center as the Kings at defense.


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09-24-2011, 03:16 AM
  #75
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this kid is great. sure-fire 70 point man

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