HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

JVR Signs Contract Extension

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-05-2011, 08:39 PM
  #276
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
It's not even that he'd need to be consistent, it's that he'd need to be the most dominating player on the ice every time he steps over the boards. It's a dumb suggestion to make, saying he could score up to a 100 points.

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2011, 09:45 PM
  #277
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
For 80-100 points to be his ceiling, what he showed in the playoffs would need to be his norm. He needs to be consistent, and if he doesn't start showing more of that in his 3rd season I'm going to have some heavy doubts.
You're still not telling me how it's so unreasonable to call that his ceiling...

It's one thing to say he wont be a PPG guy...it's another to say that Shafer is out to lunch in saying that he has PPG+ potential.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2011, 09:54 PM
  #278
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 39,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
You're still not telling me how it's so unreasonable to call that his ceiling...

It's one thing to say he wont be a PPG guy...it's another to say that Shafer is out to lunch in saying that he has PPG+ potential.
I'm gonna need to ask you to clarify for me here...if I'm understanding you correctly, you say it's not unreasonable to say he doesn't have PPG potential...yet it's also unreasonable to say he doesn't have PPG potential?

All I'm saying is that so far, he hasn't shown me he'll score more than 60-70 points. He's still developing though, so I might raise my expectations depending on how he does this year; if he doesn't show marked improvement, I'll continue to stand by it. However, he hasn't shown me he can really be a PPG player yet, much less 100.

The first two years of a players career are generally a learning process...what we see in these next two seasons ought to really let us know what we have. I sure as hell hope that at the end of this or the next season I'm saying "he should be good for 80+ a season."

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2011, 10:11 PM
  #279
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm gonna need to ask you to clarify for me here...if I'm understanding you correctly, you say it's not unreasonable to say he doesn't have PPG potential...yet it's also unreasonable to say he doesn't have PPG potential?
Do you not understand the difference between a player's projection and a player's ceiling?

It's one thing to say that you dont project JVR to be a PPG player...it's another to say that he doesnt have PPG potential.

And nobody said he should be good for 80+ points. I think you dont understand what the concept of a "ceiling" is.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2011, 10:14 PM
  #280
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 39,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Do you not understand the difference between a player's projection and a player's ceiling?

It's one thing to say that you dont project JVR to be a PPG player...it's another to say that he doesnt have PPG potential.
Right, I get that. I just wasn't really on the same page with a few other people I guess.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2011, 11:24 PM
  #281
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 31,879
vCash: 500
I have a headache from reading this last page.
thats for those with 50 posts per page for those counting at home

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2011, 11:34 PM
  #282
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
The way he played in those two games did. The way he was able to take over like that? Unfortunately I feel like some of you are only looking at stats. Look at the way he plays. Once he puts it all together, he's already shown flashes of being a Rick Nash/Bobby Ryan-esque force...
Rick Nash scored 41 goals when he was 19.

Bobby Ryan put up 31 at 21.

I'm high on JVR, I think he's going to be a good player. But both those guys had posted significantly better seasons at this point in JVRs career. Doesn't mean he can't become better than either of 'em, but every player in the NHL has flashes. Donald Brashear had flashes.

JVR has shown almost nothing to deserve the contract he just signed, which chafes because they should have gotten a better deal given that they are assuming the vast majority of the risk here.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2011, 11:37 PM
  #283
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
It's not even that he'd need to be consistent, it's that he'd need to be the most dominating player on the ice every time he steps over the boards. It's a dumb suggestion to make, saying he could score up to a 100 points.
JVR is going to need to become IMMENSELY better at getting helpers in order to sniff 80ish points, let alone 100.

He looks like a 30-30-60 guy right now as about what people should expect in a "good" scenario.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 07:42 AM
  #284
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,111
vCash: 500
Is someone other than JvR had 2 great playoff games and was handed that type of contract, most here would be confused and pissed off. He shouldn't have been handed that contract without more time passing, even if it was just a few months of play this season. I think he was given the contract so that the front office could show the fans they were moving on and that he and Roo would be the faces of the franchise. I think he's too young to be that guy at this point.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 11:31 AM
  #285
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Is someone other than JvR had 2 great playoff games and was handed that type of contract, most here would be confused and pissed off. He shouldn't have been handed that contract without more time passing, even if it was just a few months of play this season. I think he was given the contract so that the front office could show the fans they were moving on and that he and Roo would be the faces of the franchise. I think he's too young to be that guy at this point.
He's far from too young. Many players have accomplished great things in the NHL younger than 22, and again if he lights up the league in the first few months, you can bet your ass he doesn't take that contract.

Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 01:45 PM
  #286
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 6,691
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Rick Nash scored 41 goals when he was 19.

Bobby Ryan put up 31 at 21.

I'm high on JVR, I think he's going to be a good player. But both those guys had posted significantly better seasons at this point in JVRs career. Doesn't mean he can't become better than either of 'em, but every player in the NHL has flashes. Donald Brashear had flashes.

JVR has shown almost nothing to deserve the contract he just signed, which chafes because they should have gotten a better deal given that they are assuming the vast majority of the risk here.
Again, you're looking at stats, and not the way he played in those games. I know what ridiculous stats Nash put up in his first year (the first half of the season at least) and what Ryan has done. But the way JvR showed the ability to take over a game last year, just the fact that he was willingto do that at his age was impressive. You could see two season ago and parts of last season how meager he was in his play, somewhat cautious, almost scared. And in the middle of last season onto the playoffs, he took off and his confidence skyrocketed.

sobrien is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 02:20 PM
  #287
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Again, you're looking at stats, and not the way he played in those games. I know what ridiculous stats Nash put up in his first year (the first half of the season at least) and what Ryan has done. But the way JvR showed the ability to take over a game last year, just the fact that he was willingto do that at his age was impressive. You could see two season ago and parts of last season how meager he was in his play, somewhat cautious, almost scared. And in the middle of last season onto the playoffs, he took off and his confidence skyrocketed.
Oh, silly me paying attention to the, ya know, scoreboard. I forgot that style points matter in hockey.

JVR was fantastic at the outset of his rookie year, and then went into a slump. He wasn't scared at all when he got to the NHL. He's simply struggled with consistency, and there are explanations for that... but not every player overcomes those problems even with flashes of great stuff.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 02:49 PM
  #288
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Oh, silly me paying attention to the, ya know, scoreboard. I forgot that style points matter in hockey.

JVR was fantastic at the outset of his rookie year, and then went into a slump. He wasn't scared at all when he got to the NHL. He's simply struggled with consistency, and there are explanations for that... but not every player overcomes those problems even with flashes of great stuff.
When JVR entered the league, he did not have the confidence to make the plays that a power forward is expected to make. Driving wide, beating defenders with his speed, trusting his touch around the net, etc. Until around the mid point of last season, JVR was not using his skill set to his advantage.

That's where confidence comes in. With confidence, JVR realized he can use his size to protect the puck, that he can use his speed to generate a scoring opportunity, that he can use his hands to make the finishing touches around the net. If you dont see a difference between the JVR two years ago, and the JVR at the end of last season, it's because you're looking at stats, not watching the game.

You can call it style points, but those skills and that confidence is what transforms a power forward from a mediocre 40 point player to a top six 60-75 point player. It's why they take so long to develop compared to players who rely on their other attributes.

And even if you are hell bent on looking at the stats, it's clear that JVR hit a new level after he realized what he was capable of. After he went 18 scoreless games to start the season, he went the rest of the year scoring at 30 goal pace. Even if the numbers at the end of the year dont look like he made progress, you can still break it down and see the steps JVR took last season.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 03:16 PM
  #289
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
When JVR entered the league, he did not have the confidence to make the plays that a power forward is expected to make. Driving wide, beating defenders with his speed, trusting his touch around the net, etc. Until around the mid point of last season, JVR was not using his skill set to his advantage.

That's where confidence comes in. With confidence, JVR realized he can use his size to protect the puck, that he can use his speed to generate a scoring opportunity, that he can use his hands to make the finishing touches around the net. If you dont see a difference between the JVR two years ago, and the JVR at the end of last season, it's because you're looking at stats, not watching the game.

You can call it style points, but those skills and that confidence is what transforms a power forward from a mediocre 40 point player to a top six 60-75 point player. It's why they take so long to develop compared to players who rely on their other attributes.

And even if you are hell bent on looking at the stats, it's clear that JVR hit a new level after he realized what he was capable of. After he went 18 scoreless games to start the season, he went the rest of the year scoring at 30 goal pace. Even if the numbers at the end of the year dont look like he made progress, you can still break it down and see the steps JVR took last season.
When JVR got to the league, he was playing great hockey... then he hit a rut and never really recovered outside of a nice run that January. So, I don't know how much of that Flyers season you watched, but clearly you weren't paying much attention the first 20 or so games.

As far as your stat analysis after this... some players are simply streaky. It happens.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 03:31 PM
  #290
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
When JVR got to the league, he was playing great hockey... then he hit a rut and never really recovered outside of a nice run that January. So, I don't know how much of that Flyers season you watched, but clearly you weren't paying much attention the first 20 or so games.

As far as your stat analysis after this... some players are simply streaky. It happens.
There's a difference between having flashes of brilliance and making such decisions on a consistent basis.

JVR was beating defenders, rushing the net, finishing plays with regularity by the end of last season. Something he was not able to do consistently in 2009. He was showing his potential, but he was still extremely raw.


And I'm not exactly sure how you can chalk it up to streakiness. He had 18 scoreless games to start the year, and then he was scoring at 30 goal pace the rest of the way. That's a little different than your average hot or cold streak...

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 03:39 PM
  #291
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
There's a difference between having flashes of brilliance and making such decisions on a consistent basis.

JVR was beating defenders, rushing the net, finishing plays with regularity by the end of last season. Something he was not able to do consistently in 2009. He was showing his potential, but he was still extremely raw.


And I'm not exactly sure how you can chalk it up to streakiness. He had 18 scoreless games to start the year, and then he was scoring at 30 goal pace the rest of the way. That's a little different than your average hot or cold streak...
No it isn't. He was simply cold at the start of the year, as opposed to the middle of it or whatever. Year before he was blazing hot at the start of the year, and then went cold.

In his final 18 games he had 5 goals, 3 of which were the hat trick against the Islanders.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 04:03 PM
  #292
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No it isn't. He was simply cold at the start of the year, as opposed to the middle of it or whatever. Year before he was blazing hot at the start of the year, and then went cold.

In his final 18 games he had 5 goals, 3 of which were the hat trick against the Islanders.
And 5 goals in 18 games is a lot different than 0 goals in 18 games....

After the first 18 games, JVR was a 30 goal scorer. I guess if you want to chalk those 18 games up to a cold streak, than we can call his pace meaningless and say that it all averaged out in the end...

But personally, I chalk it up to JVR's maturity and confidence level. If you want to call it a simple cold streak, I guess that's your call, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. I think it was less of a cold streak than it was actual development in JVR's game.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 04:13 PM
  #293
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
And 5 goals in 18 games is a lot different than 0 goals in 18 games....

After the first 18 games, JVR was a 30 goal scorer. I guess if you want to chalk those 18 games up to a cold streak, than we can call his pace meaningless and say that it all averaged out in the end...

But personally, I chalk it up to JVR's maturity and confidence level. If you want to call it a simple cold streak, I guess that's your call, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. I think it was less of a cold streak than it was actual development in JVR's game.
Dude, getting held off the scoreboard in 15 out of 18 games is DEFINITELY a cold streak... especially if you want to talk about him being on "30 goal pace."

And, yes, everything averages out in the end... that's the way these things work.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 04:29 PM
  #294
Larry44
Flyers Tank Nation
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
When JVR got to the league, he was playing great hockey... then he hit a rut and never really recovered outside of a nice run that January. So, I don't know how much of that Flyers season you watched, but clearly you weren't paying much attention the first 20 or so games.

As far as your stat analysis after this... some players are simply streaky. It happens.
I don't have all the dates, etc. but didn't JVR suffer a couple concussions from being tripped into the boards head first during his rookie year? I remember him having to take some games off, and then being a bit tentative upon his return.

Larry44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 06:03 PM
  #295
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I don't have all the dates, etc. but didn't JVR suffer a couple concussions from being tripped into the boards head first during his rookie year? I remember him having to take some games off, and then being a bit tentative upon his return.
I remember him missing some games, but he started to go cold at the end of November, and he wasn't missing any games then from the looks of things. I just think he had the normal rookie wall thing. He had a great January that season, too.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 07:22 PM
  #296
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
I think it was his shoulder, not concussions. Don't know what makes me say that though.

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 10:32 PM
  #297
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dude, getting held off the scoreboard in 15 out of 18 games is DEFINITELY a cold streak... especially if you want to talk about him being on "30 goal pace."

And, yes, everything averages out in the end... that's the way these things work.
Dude, I never said it wasnt a cold streak. But that's not all it was. It was a young player who was playing without confidence. Once he gained his confidence back, he was scoring at 30 goal pace.

So I'll say again, if you want to chalk it up to a simple cold streak and nothing more, then fine. JVR is a 20 goal scorer who has never shown otherwise. Happy? I think it's quite obvious he was a 30 goal scorer once he got past that hump. I dont see why it has to average out in the end. It's one thing if he scored at 20 goal pace the entire season, but being held without a goal in the first 18 games, then finding his groove after that is not simply the law of averages at work here in my opinion. I think it's a young player who took steps in his development last season.

Is that really unreasonable? He certainly looked like a different player by the end of the year...

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2011, 11:52 PM
  #298
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 14,005
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
but being held without a goal in the first 18 games, then finding his groove after that is not simply the law of averages at work here in my opinion.
I will respectfully and completely disagree not only in regards to vanRiemsdyk but also when in discussions dealing with every single young player in professional sports.

It's fine if you feel that way, but I completely believe that as much as the process into becoming a "star" is gradual, I also think it's partially and relatively instantaneous.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2011, 12:06 AM
  #299
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I will respectfully and completely disagree not only in regards to vanRiemsdyk but also when in discussions dealing with every single young player in professional sports.

It's fine if you feel that way, but I completely believe that as much as the process into becoming a "star" is gradual, I also think it's partially and relatively instantaneous.
I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting. That a young player simply explodes onto the scene rather than gradually developing into stardom?

I think we can both cite examples of players developing gradually and players developing seemingly instantaneously. That's part of what makes development such an inexact science. Some players take longer than others. A guy like Stamkos was instantaneous...but then players like Ryan Kesler or even Nicklas Backstrom have more gradual development curves.

I think JVR proved last year that he's more along the lines of a gradual progression...as are most players from the college route I would assume.

EDIT: Corey Perry is another great example of a player with a gradual development. He's slowly developed his stardom over the course of the last 5 years or so.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2011, 01:03 AM
  #300
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 14,005
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting. That a young player simply explodes onto the scene rather than gradually developing into stardom?

I think we can both cite examples of players developing gradually and players developing seemingly instantaneously. That's part of what makes development such an inexact science. Some players take longer than others. A guy like Stamkos was instantaneous...but then players like Ryan Kesler or even Nicklas Backstrom have more gradual development curves.

I think JVR proved last year that he's more along the lines of a gradual progression...as are most players from the college route I would assume.

EDIT: Corey Perry is another great example of a player with a gradual development. He's slowly developed his stardom over the course of the last 5 years or so.
Actually, it's a little hard to describe.

What I'm trying to describe is the tipping point when a player establishes himself with a level considered to be better than the average NHL player.

While I think the development of all players is gradual, I think there's a legitimate point where a player understands and can play up to a specific level against all competition.

Maybe I'm swatting at the wind with this one. It's an extremely abstract concept which comes down to whether or not you believe in "fine lines."


Last edited by CS: 09-07-2011 at 02:06 AM.
CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:09 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.